Kaveri Engine

[Physx32]

We are capable of making both rocket & jet engines. Our limitation with jet engine is about metallurgical knowhow.

More specifically we're struggling in improving the thermal barrier coating and cooling of the hot core.

 

[no smoking]

Our limitation with jet engine is about metallurgical knowhow.

That is the favorite rhetoric of designers of all fields to cover up their faults.
1. Figuring out what kind of materials will be available is one of the major tasks of preliminary study stage of any project. So, Indian scientists should be aware of these limitations in the first place;
2. Setting up your target based on these materials. If you were aware of all these limitations, then set up a lower level target, don't promise a fancy result. Here is the issue: either Indian scientists didn't understand 100% the engine design, or they just accepted the customer's super requirements even though they knew these requirements are unrealistic considering Indian industrial capabilities. Either way, it is their fault.

 

[IndianHawk]

That is the favorite rhetoric of designers of all fields to cover up their faults.
1. Figuring out what kind of materials will be available is one of the major tasks of preliminary study stage of any project. So, Indian scientists should be aware of these limitations in the first place;
2. Setting up your target based on these materials. If you were aware of all these limitations, then set up a lower level target, don't promise a fancy result. Here is the issue: either Indian scientists didn't understand 100% the engine design, or they just accepted the customer's super requirements even though they knew these requirements are unrealistic considering Indian industrial capabilities. Either way, it is their fault.

Why don't you give this sermon to Chinese scientists who can't develope an engine for j20 which has forced Chinese to buy su35 against American f35 .

What were chinese scientists smoking when they were developing j20 while they couldn't possibly deliver an appropriate engine for it. Are Chinese scientists all stupid. Now china has no option but to rely on su35 as j20 is just a huge target with heavy heat signature .

What a joke.

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[Assassin 2.0]

Why don't you give this sermon to Chinese scientists who can't develope an engine for j20 which has forced Chinese to buy su35 against American f35 .

What were chinese scientists smoking when they were developing j20 while they couldn't possibly deliver an appropriate engine for it. Are Chinese scientists all stupid. Now china has no option but to rely on su35 as j20 is just a huge target with heavy heat signature .

What a joke.

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J-20 frame is stealthy. It's frame is copied from YF-22 but just like su-57 they failed to provide good fit and finish. I read somewhere there was one big screw which was poking out and that screw was destroying total stealth characteristics of F-35.
*engine heat signature and there is nothing to cover J-20 engine nozzle. This is the biggest flow of that jet.
*but in next 10 years I'm seeing a capable 5th generation jet. They will be able to perfect that in 10 years
*J-20 frame / design is good but there is one flow from the front area that is its small frontal wings which are put there to make that jet maneuverable.
*and the Chinese stealth coating which they developed is also totally different from American one. And some reports suggest that they don't have good quality and gets wiped away pretty easily.
*Chinese bought Su-35 to learn thrust vector technology.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

That is the favorite rhetoric of designers of all fields to cover up their faults.

They make smaller engines.

1. Figuring out what kind of materials will be available is one of the major tasks of preliminary study stage of any project. So, Indian scientists should be aware of these limitations in the first place;
2. Setting up your target based on these materials. If you were aware of all these limitations, then set up a lower level target, don't promise a fancy result. Here is the issue: either Indian scientists didn't understand 100% the engine design, or they just accepted the customer's super requirements even though they knew these requirements are unrealistic considering Indian industrial capabilities. Either way, it is their fault.

We have made the engine we planned at preliminary stage. The problem is now increased thrust requirement and materials chosen in preliminary studies in previous subject aren't any helpful with new one.

Developing new material is a great headache.

 

[IndianHawk]

J-20 frame is stealthy. It's frame is copied from YF-22 but just like su-57 they failed to provide good fit and finish. I read somewhere there was one big screw which was poking out and that screw was destroying total stealth characteristics of F-35.
*engine heat signature and there is nothing to cover J-20 engine nozzle. This is the biggest flow of that jet.
*but in next 10 years I'm seeing a capable 5th generation jet. They will be able to perfect that in 10 years
*J-20 frame / design is good but there is one flow from the front area that is its small frontal wings which are put there to make that jet maneuverable.
*and the Chinese stealth coating which they developed is also totally different from American one. And some reports suggest that they don't have good quality and gets wiped away pretty easily.
*Chinese bought Su-35 to learn thrust vector technology.

It will take Chinese two decades or more to come up with a reliable stealth engine for j20 given their current status which is even generation behind Russia in jet technology which itself is generation behind west in Engine technology.

That is why India is collaborating with France for Kaveri and not Russia.

Another huge issue with j20 is Chinese Avionics which is again generations behind the wester tech. It means Chinese sensors irst , Maws, aesa all are inferior to even already deployed wester / Israeli systems.

Rafale Avionics is itself is leagues ahead of what chinese are contemplating to develop.

Its actually a huge weaknesses of china . Lack of western competition means Chinese defense systems grow in complete isolation and are accepted even though they are flawed.

On one hand it increases indignation but on the other hand it promotes mediocrity.

Example chinese aesa had no competition. They had no option but to use whatever their institution came up with. So it's performance sucks big time as Pakistan relied completely on Swedish AWACS and didn't even bother with Chinese systems. That's how bad Chinese technology is.

Meanwhile Indian radars have to face tremendous western competition. On one hand they lose out to western competition and indegination takes a hit but when accepted into service Indian product actual are very near to western products in actual performance otherwise they won't be selected.

While Chinese aesa grows without competition Indian Uttam has to actually match and performance of elta and Thales offerings!
Both of which are generations ahead of the Chinese.

Without external competition Chinese products will remain inferior . There is no shortcut to excellence but brutal competition.

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[Aaj ka hero]

They make smaller engines.

We have made the engine we planned at preliminary stage. The problem is now increased thrust requirement and materials chosen in preliminary studies in previous subject aren't any helpful with new one.

Developing new material is a great headache.

Sirji off the topic, how is your health? you were saying you were going for operation.

 

[Kshithij]

It will take Chinese two decades or more to come up with a reliable stealth engine for j20 given their current status which is even generation behind Russia in jet technology which itself is generation behind west in Engine technology.

Chinese already have developed engines. WS10B equivalent to Al41F powers J20. Al41F is same as M88 in generation.

India also has engine Technology of Kaveri but Tejas has increased weight & made Kaveri less useful. However, Kaveri is working fine. It is Tejas's fault that it gained weight during development, not Kaveri's fault due to which Kaveri is not used on Tejas.

Chinese already do have a number of engines made in China. Similarly, India also has completed Kaveri. Read DRDO chief interview published recently to get confirmation on Kaveri.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Sirji off the topic, how is your health? you were saying you were going for operation.

Heart got two stents, left leg will get a new bone installed, infection in alveoli persists.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Heart got two stents, left leg will get a new bone installed, infection in alveoli persists.

Be strong sir, will to succeed is more important than anything.

 

[IndianHawk]

Chinese already have developed engines. WS10B equivalent to Al41F powers J20. Al41F is same as M88 in generation.

India also has engine Technology of Kaveri but Tejas has increased weight & made Kaveri less useful. However, Kaveri is working fine. It is Tejas's fault that it gained weight during development, not Kaveri's fault due to which Kaveri is not used on Tejas.

Chinese already do have a number of engines made in China. Similarly, India also has completed Kaveri. Read DRDO chief interview published recently to get confirmation on Kaveri.

These chinese engines are highly unreliable and highly inefficient .

Why do you think paki get jf17 with Russian engine and not chinese. Because even paki kno that Chinese engine is useless.

Regarding Indian engine Kaveri can't be accepted just like Chinese accepted there home grown products. Kaveri has to actually beat ge f404 in performance. The bar for Kaveri is far higher than Chinese set for their engines.

Chinese products face no real competition and hence are severely inferior .

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[IndianHawk]

Be strong sir, will to succeed is more important than anything.

He is strong is spirit . Just look at his posts . He will be fine.

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[Kshithij]

These chinese engines are highly unreliable and highly inefficient .

Why do you think paki get jf17 with Russian engine and not chinese. Because even paki kno that Chinese engine is useless

It is only in propaganda that Chinese engines are worthless. In reality, it is good.

In 2000s, Chinese engine was not yet perfected & hence Russian engine was chosen for JF17. But later, it was continued as Russia wanted it as a means of having political leverage with Pakistan. Since Chinese don't use JF17, they didn't see a reason to object to Russian engine.

Regarding Indian engine Kaveri can't be accepted just like Chinese accepted there home grown products. Kaveri has to actually beat ge f404 in performance. The bar for Kaveri is far higher than Chinese set for their engines.

Tejas Mk1 is limited production and hence India doesn't want to change engine. India has already bought 100-150 F404 engines Kaveri is slightly less powerful (lower thrust) and considering the low numbers in production and the inventory of F404 engines, there is no need to replace engine.

It is not about Kaveri acceptance but about need. Kaveri is most likely going to be used in Rafale as that is the only way India can have indigenous Rafale sice France refused to give Technology transfer for M88. So, Kaveri will be accepted, but for Rafales, not Tejas.

 

[Tridev123]

It is only in propaganda that Chinese engines are worthless. In reality, it is good.

In 2000s, Chinese engine was not yet perfected & hence Russian engine was chosen for JF17. But later, it was continued as Russia wanted it as a means of having political leverage with Pakistan. Since Chinese don't use JF17, they didn't see a reason to object to Russian engine.


Tejas Mk1 is limited production and hence India doesn't want to change engine. India has already bought 100-150 F404 engines Kaveri is slightly less powerful (lower thrust) and considering the low numbers in production and the inventory of F404 engines, there is no need to replace engine.

It is not about Kaveri acceptance but about need. Kaveri is most likely going to be used in Rafale as that is the only way India can have indigenous Rafale sice France refused to give Technology transfer for M88. So, Kaveri will be accepted, but for Rafales, not Tejas.

I have a few doubts to be clarified. One do Chinese turbofan engines use Rhenium and if yes where do they get the supply from. Does China have Rhenium deposits. I believe Rhenium is found associated with Copper and mainly found in Chile copper mines. Do Chinese use Single Crystal blades and are they 3rd generation.

I have often read that Kaveri engine would be used in the Rafale replacing the M88. Is this news really authentic and can a reputable source like the DRDO chief or Air Force Chief be quoted for confirming the news. The Kaveri engine is yet to be fully certified and will the French allow us to mate the Kaveri with the Rafale. You will agree that there is a large risk in the process. Everyone wants the Kaveri engine to succeed but is using it in the Rafale the best course of action.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

I have a few doubts to be clarified. One do Chinese turbofan engines use Rhenium and if yes where do they get the supply from. Does China have Rhenium deposits. I believe Rhenium is found associated with Copper and mainly found in Chile copper mines. Do Chinese use Single Crystal blades and are they 3rd generation.

I have often read that Kaveri engine would be used in the Rafale replacing the M88. Is this news really authentic and can a reputable source like the DRDO chief or Air Force Chief be quoted for confirming the news. The Kaveri engine is yet to be fully certified and will the French allow us to mate the Kaveri with the Rafale. You will agree that there is a large risk in the process. Everyone wants the Kaveri engine to succeed but is using it in the Rafale the best course of action.

No! Kaveri will not be used in Rafale. Kaveri is 38 % heavier than M88 with same thrust.

 

[IndianHawk]

It is only in propaganda that Chinese engines are worthless. In reality, it is good.

In 2000s, Chinese engine was not yet perfected & hence Russian engine was chosen for JF17. But later, it was continued as Russia wanted it as a means of having political leverage with Pakistan. Since Chinese don't use JF17, they didn't see a reason to object to Russian engine.


Tejas Mk1 is limited production and hence India doesn't want to change engine. India has already bought 100-150 F404 engines Kaveri is slightly less powerful (lower thrust) and considering the low numbers in production and the inventory of F404 engines, there is no need to replace engine.

It is not about Kaveri acceptance but about need. Kaveri is most likely going to be used in Rafale as that is the only way India can have indigenous Rafale sice France refused to give Technology transfer for M88. So, Kaveri will be accepted, but for Rafales, not Tejas.

It's no propaganda. Chinese engine are shit. Jf17 latests blocks are still using Russian engine and no Russia doesn't want leverage over Pakistan when it could cost damage to relationship with India. Russian agreed to supply engine to Pak at excessive price because there was simply no reliable alternative.

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[Kshithij]

I have a few doubts to be clarified. One do Chinese turbofan engines use Rhenium and if yes where do they get the supply from. Does China have Rhenium deposits. I believe Rhenium is found associated with Copper and mainly found in Chile copper mines. Do Chinese use Single Crystal blades and are they 3rd generation.

I don't think rhenium ia used by Chinese as mass manufacturing will be difficult during war. Chinese are using SCB bit generation is unknown.

I have often read that Kaveri engine would be used in the Rafale replacing the M88. Is this news really authentic and can a reputable source like the DRDO chief or Air Force Chief be quoted for confirming the news. The Kaveri engine is yet to be fully certified and will the French allow us to mate the Kaveri with the Rafale. You will agree that there is a large risk in the process. Everyone wants the Kaveri engine to succeed but is using it in the Rafale the best course of actio

Kaveri is ready. Some testing ia left to verify but it is ready. The fact that Kaveri dry core is used for Ghatak UAV shows that its core was already ready. Core is major part of engine. Hence, this shows Kaveri is not risky.

None have confirmed this. India makes Su30 engine & won't accept Rafale with imported engine. French won't give M88 technology and hence only option is Kaveri. It is logical deduction based on the fact that no other option is available.

No! Kaveri will not be used in Rafale. Kaveri is 38 % heavier than M88 with same thrust.

Kaveri weighs 1040kg, with 52/81kN thrust. M88 weighs 900kg with 50/75kN thrust. TWR for Kaveri is 7.8 while M88 has 8.5 TWR. Where is the 38% coming from?

 

[Shekhar Singh]

I don't think rhenium ia used by Chinese as mass manufacturing will be difficult during war. Chinese are using SCB bit generation is unknown.



Kaveri is ready. Some testing ia left to verify but it is ready. The fact that Kaveri dry core is used for Ghatak UAV shows that its core was already ready. Core is major part of engine. Hence, this shows Kaveri is not risky.

None have confirmed this. India makes Su30 engine & won't accept Rafale with imported engine. French won't give M88 technology and hence only option is Kaveri. It is logical deduction based on the fact that no other option is available.


Kaveri weighs 1040kg, with 52/81kN thrust. M88 weighs 900kg with 50/75kN thrust. TWR for Kaveri is 7.8 while M88 has 8.5 TWR. Where is the 38% coming from?

Kaveri weighs 1236 kg and M88 weight 897 kg. The weight difference is 37.77 %

 

[Armand2REP]

Kaveri weighs 1040kg, with 52/81kN thrust. M88 weighs 900kg with 50/75kN thrust. TWR for Kaveri is 7.8 while M88 has 8.5 TWR. Where is the 38% coming from?

Kaveri would never fit in the Rafale. It is a much wider engine. It wouldn't even fit an M2000 it is so wide.

 

[no smoking]

They make smaller engines.

This designing goals of this "smaller" engine almost equal those western engines in the same class which were developed in 90s: M88-2, F404-IN20.

We have made the engine we planned at preliminary stage.

Yes, only short of 400kg thrust and overweight 150kg in its prototype. That means there is serious problem within the design.

The problem is now increased thrust requirement and materials chosen in preliminary studies in previous subject aren't any helpful with new one.

No, the problem is you already started to talk about the new prblem before fixing the old problem.

Developing new material is a great headache.

Another rhetoric: the R&D on new material should have started when the first Kaveri prototype was assembled, which means you have more than 20 years to deal with this "Greate Headache".