Kaveri Engine

[Vijyes]

Why stuck with Blisk and SCB, which is just a part of the engine. The root problem is the metallurgy which is used in the Core of the engine, where GTRE is lagging. No one is saying that India don't have SCB, infact there was the picture of the SCB blade produced by the DMRL on the public domain also, but of which Generation ??? SCB is the latest trend/tech introduced in 80's but the earlier generation from 1-3 don't have any advantage over the Brisk. Don't be jignostic, there is no SCB yet, and using Blisk does not makes Kaveri inferior. When we says their is Vibration problem, that means the Kaveri engine have Acquosition Vibration problem at certain speed of the 13th order, which will tends to through away the Blisk and all rotating assemblies. And Scnerma of france will only give you the advice to the GTRE, and will not give you any tech. or rare metal alloy composition. There is now two program running one is K9+ and K10. K9+ is the improvement of the Kaveri and will be used in LCA trainer, UAVs, Naval application's etc. K10 is the next variant of the Kaveri and a tech. demonstrator for the futuristic uses and after its complition, the Kaveri engine of highter rating 100+ KN will be made on its tech. AMCA is the project of ADA, and the engine selection is yet to be made. Infact IAF haven't given its ASQR to the ADA, and without it, the thrust required is not known, and the one who makes this like of speculation is not living in the reality.

Please don't be jingoistic. Blisk and SCB are different technologies. Blisk is used in compression stages instead of nut and bolt connected compressors. It is a kind of single metal helix disk. SCB is for the blades. They both are different. Both come under metallurgy but the items are different and non substitutable mutually.
France has said that it will give a lot of ToT if India orders 200 planes. At present this engine assistance will be given for 90kN engine for Mk1A. There is a secret deal by Parrikar that if France comes out true, India will order another 150-200 rafales instead of going for Gripen or F16. While the french on their part may end up giving a lot of technology like RAM paint, critical engine part manufacturing plants etc which will be used to fast track AMCA.

 

[Alok Arya]

Why stuck with Blisk and SCB, which is just a part of the engine. The root problem is the metallurgy which is used in the Core of the engine, where GTRE is lagging. No one is saying that India don't have SCB, infact there was the picture of the SCB blade produced by the DMRL on the public domain also, but of which Generation ??? SCB is the latest trend/tech introduced in 80's but the earlier generation from 1-3 don't have any advantage over the Brisk. Don't be jignostic, there is no SCB yet, and using Blisk does not makes Kaveri inferior. When we says their is Vibration problem, that means the Kaveri engine have Acquosition Vibration problem at certain speed of the 13th order, which will tends to through away the Blisk and all rotating assemblies. And Scnerma of france will only give you the advice to the GTRE, and will not give you any tech. or rare metal alloy composition. There is now two program running one is K9+ and K10. K9+ is the improvement of the Kaveri and will be used in LCA trainer, UAVs, Naval application's etc. K10 is the next variant of the Kaveri and a tech. demonstrator for the futuristic uses and after its complition, the Kaveri engine of highter rating 100+ KN will be made on its tech. AMCA is the project of ADA, and the engine selection is yet to be made. Infact IAF haven't given its ASQR to the ADA, and without it, the thrust required is not known, and the one who makes this like of speculation is not living in the reality.

I am giving you reply point by point .
1. I am stuck with scb and blisk because these are the tech where India struggling . However blisk , wide cord blade and scb are present in hal htfe 40 , but these new tech despite being in India not reportedly goes in Kaveri as Kaveri is noisy at ab and gtre wants to sort out this noise before going for metallurgically improved version .
2. SCB and blisk are very much part of metallurgy, we have ni based composite required to make higher generation of scb but not able to cast because of lack of tech to cast scb . You miss point here .
3. First generation scb is not better than ds in temperature durability but show consistent performance in all four area of concern vis ds which show better performance in only two area . This leads to research in future generation of scb , however after a time gap . So second generation scb are better than ds in all characteristics . India scb are reportedly better than than ds which at present in Kaveri ( 81/52 kn Russia 2011 test engine ) by more than 100* c temperature durability .
4. You will be surprise to know that composition of any alloy is not so imp what is more imp is manufacturing tech . You may find composition of low carbon, high chromium rha but still manufactured by few countries in word . So metallurgy is not about composition only it is more about manufacturing tech .
5. Blisk and scb are not substitute of each other but these are different tech , both of these required by engine have different application . Blisk increase centrifugal force tolarence despite reducing weight and used in both hot and cold section but scb mainly to increase temperature durability , coresion resistance , creep etc etc and mainly applied for hot section .
Please do google , give time to engine tech and various other tech to understand better if you are not professional . There is thin line between jignostism and patriotism . You are not qualified enough to comment on this .

 

[TPFscopes]

Articles are silent in Power that engine generates. I hope they mignt have reached 60 KN dry and 90 KN wet.

Specifications for KAVERI GTX 35VS
Dry thurst: 54KN
Afterburner: 95+ KN

Preferred to be used on Tejas

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

India should try ramjet like in the Brahmos but with greater power and also rugged so that it can be used by future LCA . The ISRO and GTRE should join hand share knowledge, technology etc so that we start a next LCA which can fly at 2.5 Mach or even more....

Looking at Kaveri engines time to perfect technology we must start trying a decade before the need arises... India cannot be sure to do research in a very short time frame....

The technology that were generated during Kaveri Engine will always be useful to the nation....

We must learn from experience and plan accordingly...

If we start today we can hope that we may bring such engines after some years.

Speed is an advantage and we must try it. If not in aircraft's we can use it elsewhere....

so we must try.....

 

[suny6611]

India should try ramjet like in the Brahmos but with greater power and also rugged so that it can be used by future LCA . The ISRO and GTRE should join hand share knowledge, technology etc so that we start a next LCA which can fly at 2.5 Mach or even more....

Looking at Kaveri engines time to perfect technology we must start trying a decade before the need arises... India cannot be sure to do research in a very short time frame....

The technology that were generated during Kaveri Engine will always be useful to the nation....

We must learn from experience and plan accordingly...

If we start today we can hope that we may bring such engines after some years.

Speed is an advantage and we must try it. If not in aircraft's we can use it elsewhere....

so we must try.....

do u understand ramjet engines ?

y do we need a fighter to fly at 2.5 mach .......... & that also a LCA .... do u have any idea the fuel consumption to fly at 2.5 mach ? does LCA have that capacity ? do calculate & u will find that LCA will be in air for minutes not hours.

SU 30 can fly at 2 mach as it can carry that much fuel.

 

[TPFscopes]

do u understand ramjet engines ?

y do we need a fighter to fly at 2.5 mach .......... & that also a LCA .... do u have any idea the fuel consumption to fly at 2.5 mach ? does LCA have that capacity ? do calculate & u will find that LCA will be in air for minutes not hours.

SU 30 can fly at 2 mach as it can carry that much fuel.

I agreed with you that he can't differentiate between Engines technology.
I will not shocked if he demands for a cryogenic Engine in a LCA.

But I think he wants the supercruise Capabilityin LCA.
For that I want to say that AMCA will have the supercruise Capability as it's salient feature.

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

do u understand ramjet engines ?

y do we need a fighter to fly at 2.5 mach .......... & that also a LCA .... do u have any idea the fuel consumption to fly at 2.5 mach ? does LCA have that capacity ? do calculate & u will find that LCA will be in air for minutes not hours.

SU 30 can fly at 2 mach as it can carry that much fuel.

"A ramjet, sometimes referred to as a flying stovepipe or an athodyd (an abbreviation of aero thermodynamic duct), is a form of airbreathing jet engine that uses the engine's forward motion to compress incoming air without an axial compressor. Because ramjets cannot produce thrust at zero airspeed, they cannot move an aircraft from a standstill. A ramjet-powered vehicle, therefore, requires an assisted take-off like a rocket assist to accelerate it to a speed where it begins to produce thrust. Ramjets work most efficiently at supersonic speeds around Mach 3 (2,300 mph; 3,700 km/h). This type of engine can operate up to speeds of Mach 6 (4,600 mph; 7,400 km/h)."

Now, this is generally used for rockets does not mean that it should be used in rockets.

Nobody thought of using gps on phones till Apple and people doubted the satellite signal etc....

but you see it works today....

If you use blinkers and shut your vision you will not make any new technologies...

how great is the idea to have tyres inflated by the vehicle(itself) when bullets hit it(and keep air pumping so as to keep tyres inflated)... but such technologies are in use...

if you don't do research in new field and develop new technologies you will always be doing the second fiddle work like re-invent the wheel... paradigm shift is the solution to a problem which cannot be solved....

If you want to develop new cutting edge technologies then you have to explore new possibilities...

Who knew that rocket technology would be useful to create air bags for car till they were actually used?

anyway I like to laugh at me like you...

so lets laugh together on me... ha ha ha....

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

I agreed with you that he can't differentiate between Engines technology.
I will not shocked if he demands for a cryogenic Engine in a LCA.

But I think he wants the supercruise Capabilityin LCA.
For that I want to say that AMCA will have the supercruise Capability as it's salient feature.

No I did not mean super-cruise Capability...

ha ha ha....

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Specifications for KAVERI GTX 35VS
Dry thurst: 54KN
Afterburner: 95+ KN

Preferred to be used on Tejas

We need to push dry thrust parameter so that Tejas may carry more weight and less and less after burner will be required to be used.

 

[TPFscopes]

We need to push dry thrust parameter so that Tejas may carry more weight and less and less after burner will be required to be used.

I think you want to shift the parameters.
The parameters for KAVERI GTX 35VS are fixed and what you are demanding are the parameters for KAVERI K9+ or K10, which is proposed to be used in AMCA.

 

[TPFscopes]

No I did not mean super-cruise Capability...

ha ha ha....

This happened when someone has over the limit ambitions.
You may laugh on yourself but what you elaborated with your words can be fulfilled by supercruise capable turbofan

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

This happened when someone has over the limit ambitions.
You may laugh on yourself but what you elaborated with your words can be fulfilled by supercruise capable turbofan

Sir,
Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of a supersonic aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently, which typically precludes the use of highly inefficient afterburners (reheat).

I was talking of designing 3700Kms to 7400Kms per hour and the speed itself can give some protection to the aircraft... that is what I meant by telling a ramjet engine...

but you say " I agreed with you that he can't differentiate between Engines technology.
I will not shocked if he demands for a cryogenic Engine in a LCA."

meaning I am an idiot so should don't need to explain to you as you know everything...

If you don't want to understand but just label something and just make fun then the only option for me is to laugh... no need for explanation no discussion..

have a great day....

 

[HariPrasad-1]

We need to push dry thrust parameter so that Tejas may carry more weight and less and less after burner will be required to be used.

I think 51.5 or 52 is already achieved. I hope we can achieve some more dry thrust so that we may increase payload.

 

[Armand2REP]

Please find here with the source you had asked for.

Indian Kaveri Turbofan’s Last Mile Problem: A Mystery Noise
Shiv Aroor Mar 09 2017 10 00 am

Decayed performance at high altitude, insufficient thrust, excessive weight. Some of the problems the DRDO has reported on its Kaveri turbofan engine, a project in development for nearly three decades. It has now emerged that an unexpected ‘noise’ during high power trials has all but stalled the programme in what the team believes is its last mile. Detailed analyses over the last two years have failed to narrow down the nature of cause of the noise, and scientists are also unable to tell if the noise is an influence aerodynamic performance. What Livefist can confirm is that the phenomenon is only the latest in a series of complications that have bedeviled the Kaveri. The noise the five engines specimens make in high throttle regimes is a key issue being placed before France’s Snecma for the remaining path to certification. Apart from the noise in the high throttle spectrum, scientists have also been grappling with a flicker, indicating inconsistent combustion or fuel transmission, when the afterburners is engaged.

On Jan 3 this year, the Safran Group created and advertised for the new position of Director for the Kaveri engine programme.

The good news for the programme is that the DRDO has been given a virtual carte blanche to channelise offsets from the Indian Rafale deal to resurrect the Kaveri. Snecma, a partner in the Rafale programme, builds the Rafale’s twin M88 turbofan engines. Under the terms of the partnership finalised late last year, Snecma is working to modify, certify and integrate the Kaveri on a Light Combat Aircraft airframe before 2020. A later phase in the partnership will involve modifications on the Kaveri for a twin configuration on India’s AMCA fifth generation fighter concept and an altered non-reheat version for the Ghatak UCAV. It is not clear if the Snecma partnership will stretch to the concept Manik mini-turbofan being developed for UAVs and cruise missiles. One of the Kaveri specimens was on display at the recent Aero India show.

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Livefist @livefist
VIDEO: India's @DRDO_India Kaveri jet engine at#AeroIndia2017. Now in revival mode with a tech infusion from@SAFRAN Snecma.

11:18 AM - 15 Feb 2017

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There are important implications of the Snecma-DRDO partnership on the Kaveri engine. A Kaveri engine sporting potential commonality with the Snecma M88 could be compelling factor in how India chooses its next fighter jets, both for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. Those implications, at any rate, would be clearer only once the Kaveri proves itself at every level of performance and envelope. It’s useful to break down the state of play with the new Kaveri in the projected mix.

LCA Mk.1/1A: Currently powered by GE 404. Intended to be powered by modified DRDO/Snecma Kaveri, with first integration aimed for by 2020.

Rafale: Powered by twin Snecma M88 turbofans.

LCA Mk.2: Two of eight GE F414-INS6 turbofan engines were delivered last month to keep the programme rolling. The future of the Mk.2, though, remains uncertain. If the modified DRDO/Snecma Kaveri can be uprated enough to meet Mk.2 demands, it could change things. For the moment, this doesn’t appear to be on the cards.

IAF Single-Engine Fighter: Either the GE F414 (on the Gripen E) or the GE F110/Pratt&Whitney F100 (on the F-16).

Indian Navy Multirole Carrier Fighter: A toss-up, effectively, between the Snecma M88 and GE F414.

AMCA: Intended to be powered by modified DRDO/Snecma Kaveri in twin engine configuration. But this remains in the air for the moment. There are other suitors, notably Boeing’s aggressive pitch that pushes the enhanced GE F414 supercruise capable engine for the AMCA, an engine family that Boeing’s Super Hornet shares with the Saab Gripen E.

GHATAK UCAV: DRDO/Snecma Kaveri modified for non-reheat stealth operations. The Government is clear at this stage that it doesn’t want a foreign powerplant on the sensitive programme.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/wp-...le-problem-a-mystery-noise.html/index.html.gz

Your core is rotten, Safran will fix it

I think 51.5 or 52 is already achieved. I hope we can achieve some more dry thrust so that we may increase payload.

Where do you think this is really going? The deal for Snecma core is already underway.

 

[suny6611]

Sir,
Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of a supersonic aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently, which typically precludes the use of highly inefficient afterburners (reheat).

I was talking of designing 3700Kms to 7400Kms per hour and the speed itself can give some protection to the aircraft... that is what I meant by telling a ramjet engine...

but you say " I agreed with you that he can't differentiate between Engines technology.
I will not shocked if he demands for a cryogenic Engine in a LCA."

meaning I am an idiot so should don't need to explain to you as you know everything...

If you don't want to understand but just label something and just make fun then the only option for me is to laugh... no need for explanation no discussion..

have a great day....

what good is a fighter to us with a "designing 3700Kms to 7400Kms per hour and the speed itself can give some protection to the aircraft" ?
will be able to use against pak. ? or even china ?
the time & fuel & stress on the aircraft taken to reach these speeds & then to de-accelerate to bomb then again to reach that speed & then again de-accelerate to land .............................. well its beyond science as of today

does any nation have a re-useable ramjet engine ?

 

[Vijyes]

Sir,
Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of a supersonic aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently, which typically precludes the use of highly inefficient afterburners (reheat).

I was talking of designing 3700Kms to 7400Kms per hour and the speed itself can give some protection to the aircraft... that is what I meant by telling a ramjet engine...

but you say " I agreed with you that he can't differentiate between Engines technology.
I will not shocked if he demands for a cryogenic Engine in a LCA."

meaning I am an idiot so should don't need to explain to you as you know everything...

If you don't want to understand but just label something and just make fun then the only option for me is to laugh... no need for explanation no discussion..

have a great day....

Speed is not the most important criteria for a fighter jet. For dogfight or bombing missions, speed should be low. Speed is required only for long distance flights to take shorter duration of time to reach the target destination. Speed is not needed for fighting. Fighting requires moderate speed but high maneuverability.

Please don't speak anything you want just for the sake if it.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Your core is rotten, Safran will fix it


Where do you think this is really going? The deal for Snecma core is already underway.

This is on open forum that Kaveri does dry 5.1.5 to52 KN and afterburner 81 KN. This is not my own DATA.

 

[TPFscopes]

Sir,
Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of a supersonic aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently, which typically precludes the use of highly inefficient afterburners (reheat).

I was talking of designing 3700Kms to 7400Kms per hour and the speed itself can give some protection to the aircraft... that is what I meant by telling a ramjet engine...

For using ramjet in an aircraft
1. As ramjet is not effective in fuel efficiency , so there is a need for larger fuel tanks.
2. Hypersonic flight have too much G's which is theoretically impossible for human body to sustain, how ever research is going on
3. Germany already tried ramjet on Aircraft but failed .

We need low cost high gain products but in recent era ramjet technology is not able to fulfill the needs.

meaning I am an idiot so should don't need to explain to you as you know everything...
.

Buddy, I didn't mean that.
Before first flight, wright brothers are known as idiots. So don't take my words another way.

As I already said, future is full of opportunities but my words are for present needs and requirements. R&D has no end. Good day

 

[TPFscopes]

This is on open forum that Kaveri does dry 5.1.5 to52 KN and afterburner 81 KN. This is not my own DATA.

These parameters are already achieved by GTRE but afterburner thurst should reach 95+ KN without any uneasy sounds and unwanted vibrations. For which snecma is here.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

These parameters are already achieved by GTRE but afterburner thurst should reach 95+ KN without any uneasy sounds and unwanted vibrations. For which snecma is here.

yes of course. In fact these are old figures and possibly all design parameters are achieved and article states that now only problem remains is of sound and nothing else. So weight reduction and desired thrust might have been achieved.