Kaveri Engine

[lcafanboy]

Hey baghawan I only will answer my questions I feel giddy on seeing the reply

1. The advancements made can be added to the final stage of the engine only. If added to any intermediate stage the other stages will melt as the temp increases towards the end ...this is where we need France to supply with parts. If they are providing some parts we can manage others ......and improve bypass along with the 30:1 pressure.

What happened to shakthi engine TOT they were mandated to provide 70% TOT where is that they have already shown middle finger during the previous agreement and they will do the same ....if given a chance. Even if they give some tech the tech will not be a recent one.

Rafale is no match to Su30 Mki in any way the upgraded Mki will eat rafale .....raw. It can detect rafale at a longer distance and kill it before only. If it is with brahmos god knows what happens to rafale .....it may not think even coming its way.so there is nothing extra really after Mki to super sukhoi upgrade.

Really I don't know what technologies are on offer I am certain that the technologies will only aid rafale. By the time they will get it it will be of no much use. The metal alloys that they are using on M88 eco 4 will may never come or may take Min 10-15 years to come even if you buy 400 rafales.

Cost of 200 rafale fighters you decide - it will eat up all the indegeneous programme funds and no more Amca rest of the funds will be for other purchases - why couldn't they were able to give the tech for the MMRCA contest for 126 planes which is official unofficial figure at that time was also 200 plus planes.suddenly what has changed in rafale fighters so they are mulling of TOT the same drama was done by sarkozy......I will tell u what happened during the contest there were 6 contenders TOT was a possibility and after rafale was selected the French voice suddenly got changed and asked that HAL was not able to absorb tech and selected an Indian traitor reliance which has not even assembled basic trainer before to magically manufacture rafale to French standards of screwdrivergiri which would not have been a possibility with an organization like HAL which has assembled and built some aircraft.

I have already answered all your question. Either you can't see or are pretending not to see. Also read my previous posts, I was the first to break news that France is ready to share Jet engine technology with India, it is not doing free or charity they are charging $1 billion of Offset money for it. Safran is setting up plant in Goa, agreed they will be supplying some parts for Kaveri but that we would have to make or source so what's the big deal if Safran supplies it. It will be made in India with no sanctions for re-export, facilitating Tejas export to other countries & save Forex too.

There's nothing wrong with Sukhoi 30 mkis they are good after upgrade will be best in the region but they are big fuel guzzlers and operating cost is high, Rafales need less fuel and opex cost is lower. Fly away cost difference is a myth, we are already paying $65 million for su30mki and for Rafales it is $85 million. Su 30 mkis don't have AESA and spectra system EW, add those and it will cost more than Rafales, see Super Sukhoi upgrade cost and add that to su30 mki fly away cost to know real cost of super Su 30 mki with similar capabilities.

Cost of 200 Rafales (actually we are buying more than 250 Rafales 57 naval Rafale m are also coming so it could shock you take heart attack pills before announcement of MII): So you want to dismantle IAF as by 2022-24 if no new fighter is bought IAF sqdn strength will be down to 22-24 sqdns (13 sukhois, 3 jaguars, 3 mig29s, 2.5 mirages, 2.5-3 Tejas mk1/mk1A). Only an idiot will do this as AMCA will come only after 2035. And cost of Indian made Rafales will be around 475 crores only and entire cost will be ammortize over 10-15 years.

 

[Vijyes]

I have already answered all your question. Either you can't see or are pretending not to see. Also read my previous posts, I was the first to break news that France is ready to share Jet engine technology with India, it is not doing free or charity they are charging $1 billion of Offset money for it. Safran is setting up plant in Goa, agreed they will be supplying some parts for Kaveri but that we would have to make or source so what's the big deal if Safran supplies it. It will be made in India with no sanctions for re-export, facilitating Tejas export to other countries & save Forex too.

There's nothing wrong with Sukhoi 30 mkis they are good after upgrade will be best in the region but they are big fuel guzzlers and operating cost is high, Rafales need less fuel and opex cost is lower. Fly away cost difference is a myth, we are already paying $65 million for su30mki and for Rafales it is $85 million. Su 30 mkis don't have AESA and spectra system EW, add those and it will cost more than Rafales, see Super Sukhoi upgrade cost and add that to su30 mki fly away cost to know real cost of super Su 30 mki with similar capabilities.

Cost of 200 Rafales (actually we are buying more than 250 Rafales 57 naval Rafale m are also coming so it could shock you take heart attack pills before announcement of MII): So you want to dismantle IAF as by 2022-24 if no new fighter is bought IAF sqdn strength will be down to 22-24 sqdns (13 sukhois, 3 jaguars, 3 mig29s, 2.5 mirages, 2.5-3 Tejas mk1/mk1A). Only an idiot will do this as AMCA will come only after 2035. And cost of Indian made Rafales will be around 475 crores only and entire cost will be ammortize over 10-15 years.

AMCA will come after 2030 in full production. Don't just keep saying 2035 as if you have some magical source. It was said that AMCA was given a deadline of 2025. So, it will enter full production by 2030. Where did 2035 come?

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

We are now concentrating on Kaveri engine and we were not able to reach the desired overall pressure nor the desired temperature and so not able to obtain the desired thrust. But now we are concentrating achieving bypass ratio of 0.5:1
whereas we have achieved 0.16:1 now instead of just restricting to one design we can design another after burner turbofan of with bypass ratio 0.75:1 another afterburner turbofan for 1:1 ration may be we can hit the correct thing. Or we can come up with a new engine for the transport or some other aircraft or some other vehicle.

Its like we want to fire one bullet and hit bulls eye, but not hit it then again aim for one bullet.... rather we should start firing machine-gun when you are not good at aim or not a sniper just go for heavy machine gun so design many engines with different bypass ratio since we are not good at technology of jet engine design.

The wiki shows following things
General characteristics

• Type: afterburning turbofan
• Length: 137.4 in (3490 mm)
• Diameter: 35.8 in (910 mm)
• Dry weight: 2,724 lb (1,235 kg) [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]

Components

• Compressor: two-spool, with low-pressure (LP) and high-pressure (HP) axial compressors:
  • LP compressor with 3 fan stages and transonic blading
  • HP compressor with 6 stages, including variable inlet guide vanes and first two stators

• Combustors: annular, with dump diffuser and air-blast fuel atomisers
• Turbine: 1 LP stage and 1 HP stage

Performance

• Maximum thrust:
• Military thrust (throttled): 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
• Full afterburner: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)(planned to be refined to >95 kN)
• Specific fuel consumption:
• Military thrust (throttled): 0.78 lb/(lbf•h) (79.52 kg/(kN·h))
• Full afterburner: 2.03 lb/(lbf•h) (207.00 kg/(kN·h))
• Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8:1 (76.0 N/kg)

Engine cycle[edit]

• Airflow: 172 lb/s (78.0 kg/s)
• Bypass ratio: 0.16:1 (it should be increased to 0.5:1)
• Overall pressure ratio: 21.5:1 [Goal: 27:1]
• LP compressor pressure ratio: 3.4:1 [Goal: 4:1]
• HP compressor pressure ratio: 6.4:1
• Turbine entry temperature: 2,218-2,601 °F (1,214-1,427 °C; 1,487-1,700 K) [Goal: 3,357 °F (1,847 °C; 2,120 K)]

Some where we will hit the target we can use the technology for some other type of vehicle....

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

an article has been published
http://idrw.org/why-the-french-hype-on-indias-kaveri-engine/

 

[zebra7]

Nope full engine was tested and results were better than chinese engine.:biggrin2:

He is right, only the Kaveri core aka Kabini was tested. So what was the result, the GTRE found that there was the vibration creep problem of 13th order, which should have been discovered, have GTRE had indigenous testing facilities and 2 compressor stage, which were almost dead in performance. Now SAFRON is not going to spoon feed GTRE, which is now confident that they have solve the all the puzzle to build the turbo fan engine rather, they will only provide assistant and consultancy, and second certify it for the airworthiness certification, after which only it could be put on the PV test bed for supersonic testing.

How Saffron could help GTRE is
1. Help GTRE in designing the modular construction of the engine for easy maintainance, and repair.
2. Solve GTRE problem related to compressor stages problem.
3. Help GTRE in certifying its Kaveri as quickly as possible to speedy supersonic testing.
4. Help GTRE in the manufacturing of the complex parts or the manufacturing technique/equipments if possible.

No body is going to give you the metallurgical composition or the rare metal alloy for the kabini core or SCB tech of m88, because no OEM in the world will share the very tech. with which they earn.

And regarding the wt issue, I don't think the wt of the Kaveri is going to 950 kg either, because that would required to change the material e.g tungsten. Second dreaming of 2020 with Kaveri in mass production is just the day dreaming, rather the present Kaveri will never will be massproduced, rather after sucessfull super sonic testing and certification, the GTRE will design the more powerful engine from the tech. developed through the Kaveri project, and will be used in LCA MK2. GTRE would then bid for the AMCA powerplant also. The present Kaveri could be used in UAV, and LCA Trainer version.

 

[Alok Arya]

He is right, only the Kaveri core aka Kabini was tested. So what was the result, the GTRE found that there was the vibration creep problem of 13th order, which should have been discovered, have GTRE had indigenous testing facilities and 2 compressor stage, which were almost dead in performance. Now SAFRON is not going to spoon feed GTRE, which is now confident that they have solve the all the puzzle to build the turbo fan engine rather, they will only provide assistant and consultancy, and second certify it for the airworthiness certification, after which only it could be put on the PV test bed for supersonic testing.

How Saffron could help GTRE is
1. Help GTRE in designing the modular construction of the engine for easy maintainance, and repair.
2. Solve GTRE problem related to compressor stages problem.
3. Help GTRE in certifying its Kaveri as quickly as possible to speedy supersonic testing.
4. Help GTRE in the manufacturing of the complex parts or the manufacturing technique/equipments if possible.

No body is going to give you the metallurgical composition or the rare metal alloy for the kabini core or SCB tech of m88, because no OEM in the world will share the very tech. with which they earn.

No 4 point is my main concern , if they give us the tech of blisk and scb mass manufacturing tech , they will solve our problem . Rest we have to do our self .

 

[zebra7]

No 4 point is my main concern , if they give us the tech of blisk and scb mass manufacturing tech , they will solve our problem . Rest we have to do our self .

Kaveri engine don't have SCB yet rather Blisk. It does not matter whether you use SCB or Blisk but what is more important is the Core, and GTRE have to master yet. Another problem with the PSU's like GTRE is that their main supplier for metallurgical raw material is also PSU's. I wonder why they haven't collaborated with the TATA, which have fair enough metallurgical knowledge, and have even take over one of the biggest Steel company in Europe, which supplied Raw material to various European Weapon manufacturer from Warships to Fighter planes.

 

[zebra7]

No one is trying to undrestand my point

If French intend to make kaveri which has been alive for many years (under testing and upgrades) to 90 kn only, I don't use we (Indian's) but I use they ( French ) need min 5-6 years to design an engine for 125 kn and min 3-4 years for testing.Do we wait for so long for engines for AMCA.

All the three should get a single engine in the 95-115kn to succeed.

Your guess is right, and the new engine derived for the Kaveri tech. will be mass produced giving +100 KN thrust.

 

[zebra7]

No 4 point is my main concern , if they give us the tech of blisk and scb mass manufacturing tech , they will solve our problem . Rest we have to do our self .

I will answer you in detail later.

 

[Alok Arya]

Kaveri engine don't have SCB yet rather Blisk. It does not matter whether you use SCB or Blisk but what is more important is the Core, and GTRE have to master yet. Another problem with the PSU's like GTRE is that their main supplier for metallurgical raw material is also PSU's. I wonder why they haven't collaborated with the TATA, which have fair enough metallurgical knowledge, and have even take over one of the biggest Steel company in Europe, which supplied Raw material to various European Weapon manufacturer from Warships to Fighter planes.

There is two engine programme running in parallel with section of third one in Jan 2017 . First with the help of snacma of 88/57 kn with blisk and second generation scb with engine intended to fly in Tejas in 2018 . Second one is based on k8 , which gtre is running on its own to master core , they reportedly solve all problems of vibration etc etc but have no blisk and scb . Third one is k10 sectioned in 2017 for 110 kn engine for amca will have Indian scb , blisk , wide cord blade etc etc .

 

[TPFscopes]

No one is trying to undrestand my point

If French intend to make kaveri which has been alive for many years (under testing and upgrades) to 90 kn only, I don't use we (Indian's) but I use they ( French ) need min 5-6 years to design an engine for 125 kn and min 3-4 years for testing.Do we wait for so long for engines for AMCA.

All the three should get a single engine in the 95-115kn to succeed.

French is not going to develop KAVERI GTX, please correct the words.
Actually snecma is going to remove the flaws in KAVERI.
The flaw caused in KAVERI is the harsh vibrations caused during afterburner.
If it is completed within time limit than there will be no extra time delay required for designing uprated thurst by just scaling the Engine

 

[Alok Arya]

I will answer you in detail later.

Your welcome . I am waiting for your reply . All my information based on media news , defence forum , and chatting with few people claimed that they have inside knowledge . You are most welcome . Two most revolutionary programme of Indian history I.e wafer fabrication facility and Kaveri engine are various process of realisation with under direct government observation. Finger cross . What will happen will decide our future . Hope for good .

 

[SanjeevM]

Can it be researched to find out, where the engine manufacturing companies route their steel from? Which companies in the world provide metallurgical assistance to engine manufacturers (in case they out source from other vendors? If we can find that, we can also source the same material. In today's world when we can find the composition of any chemical or metal, is it possible that we can research on what kind of metal composition is used by engine manufacturers world wide? I hope it will provide clues to indian side.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Can it be researched to find out, where the engine manufacturing companies route their steel from? Which companies in the world provide metallurgical assistance to engine manufacturers (in case they out source from other vendors? If we can find that, we can also source the same material. In today's world when we can find the composition of any chemical or metal, is it possible that we can research on what kind of metal composition is used by engine manufacturers world wide? I hope it will provide clues to indian side.

Actually most or entire of technical knowhow of composition & metallurgy of alloy is hold by government instead of Company.

If you have worked as a mechanical engineer in any such company, you be knowing that. You are provided with material to machine & process it to make the product but you don't know of which material it is.
You don't even know that what it actually is (missile part, engine part, ship part, rocket part) and what will happen to it in next stage, who will do that. Who will assemble it.

If Indian Companies or government work together with these companies, we can have some knowledge in design but again,

We already have designed & developed them. Our problem is metallurgy for bigger engines.

today's world when we can find the composition of any chemical or metal, is it possible

Not really, this is not that simple you are thinking mate.

 

[Vijyes]

Actually most or entire of technical knowhow of composition & metallurgy of alloy is hold by government instead of Company.

If you have worked as a mechanical engineer in any such company, you be knowing that. You are provided with material to machine & process it to make the product but you don't know of which material it is.
You don't even know that what it actually is (missile part, engine part, ship part, rocket part) and what will happen to it in next stage, who will do that. Who will assemble it.

If Indian Companies or government work together with these companies, we can have some knowledge in design but again,

We already have designed & developed them. Our problem is metallurgy for bigger engines.

Not really, this is not that simple you are thinking mate.

Composition of any alloy can be found out by chemical analysis. The metallurgy is about the right process of manufacturing - heating, cooling, duration of treatment, chemical treatment, steam treatment etc. These things are hard to be known.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Composition of any alloy can be found out by chemical analysis.

Properties of many elements very in case of different crystal structures.
An element may hold one property in first alloy but second in other alloy.

 

[Vijyes]

Properties of many elements very in case of different crystal structures.
An element may hold one property in first alloy but second in other alloy.

Property varies only physically. But when made to react with chemicals and then separated according to weight of the product molecules, it is possible to find the composition. Sampling it 10 times will give a very accurate composition percentage of different materials

 

[HariPrasad-1]

You will be surprise to hear that new of Tejas fly with Kaveri will come earlier than 2019 . In 2019 it will be full combat menuver for international community with certification to be completed in end of 2019 and Kaveri goes in mass production in in 2020 .
Actually Kaveri mainly lagging in metallurgy which is coming from France in form of already certified metallurgy and this cut sort the development time . Kaveri has been flight tested to certain extent and with improve certified metallurgy further test flying will be done in shorter time span .

DRDO head said that kaveri is working fine. We have prototypes and they are doing good but they makes more noise and we do not know why. We need a consultency to see whether there is any problem or not?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Nope Kaveri engine design is very advance and is good enough. We only lack metallurgy and some exotic processes like Blisk & ceramic coating which they will use and transfer technology to improve the engine performance and reduce weight. Also they have to deliver the engine by next year before election to get the bigger MII Rafale deal.:biggrin2:

Weight of kaveri is reduced further by 100 kg with the arrival of SCB and it weighs 1100 KG now. New SBCs are good for a temperature of 1600*+

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Property varies only physically. But when made to react with chemicals and then separated according to weight of the product molecules,

Crystal structure obstructs proper reaction mate.