Kaveri Engine

[p2prada]

Can someone please tell me the differences between RD-33 and RD-93? They are not the same, I presume?

There are different versions of the RD-33. IAF and IN use the most advanced versions while RD-93 was developed from an older version of the RD-33.

Currently, Klimov has developed a newer high thrust variant of the RD-93 (91 KN) for China (and Pak) along with an even superior version for the Russian Navy for the Mig-29Ks (93 KN). They seem to have plans of going up to 98 KN.

Current RD-93 has a thrust rating of 83 KN. RD-33 Series 3 and Sea Wasp have thrust rating of 88 KN in comparison to the other two mentioned above.

The main difference between RD-93 and RD-33 is the location of the gearbox.

 

[shiphone]

RD93 = RD33 serial 3 (of Mig29UPG) = 8300 kgf
RD33MK-sea wasp (of Mig29K) = 9000 kgf

Kilmov's page about RD33 and the mentioned RD33 serial 3
JSC "Klimov" - RD-33 family

RD-33 series series 3, an engine with a longer service life;

UEC's page about RD33,RD33MK,RD93
United Engine Corporation -

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Interesting news: India Considers New Partnership Options For Kaveri Engine | Aviation International News

Also, I found this comment by Roshan, worth replicating:

how can we say that chinese r not far ahead . WS 10 is 130 Kn engine & is operational on J-10 & j-16 . They r going for WS 15 a 180 Kn engine .

 

[Guest]

how can we say that chinese r not far ahead . WS 10 is 130 Kn engine & is operational on J-10 & j-16 . They r going for WS 15 a 180 Kn engine .

Different class of engines-

 

[ersakthivel]

A further addendum to the post. The current DS blades of the Kaveri engine are made of CM247LC alloy (marked in a circle in the first graph). Read and weep gentlemen jingos, Kaveri would have to be first certified fully with the current DS blades following which the Boffins will keep tweaking the engines with DMS4/DMD4 (or any new superalloy they might have made in the meanwhile) SC blades, which are third generation, while the world moves on to fifth generation blades and we run around with a begging bowl for fourth generation blade technology. I suggest the thread title to include "Abandon hope all ye enter here" to reflect the reality of this project.

Give the engine thrust to weight ratio figures(after burner thrust/ weight of the engine) for

1. Kaveri K-9,

2.AL-31,

3.. RD-93,

lets see what you know about engines,

To produce 122 Kn thrust AL-31 f weighs 1474 Kg,(by pass ratio-0.59)

to produce 80 Kn thrust K-9 weighs around 1100 kg.(by pass ratio-0.16)

That is the crucial point we need to note,

Both engines have almost comparable TWR figures for engine and remember K-9 is in it's initial development stage with DS blades only, still it manages aTWR figure of Al-31 F with a much lower TET capable blades.
ofcourse K-9 has to be flight certified with longer engine life which is a tough job ahead and will be done,

If you want to know what this really means the higher thrust AL-31 engine equipped J-10 will have much lesser performance than lower thrust K-9 equipped Tejas mk-1 , because the higher weight and volume requirement of Al-31 imposes its own penalties on J-10 airframe ,

to house higher dia Al-31 J-10 has to have a bigger fuselage which will add weight and drag penalty.

tejas mk-1 can even out the lower thrust of K-9 with low volume low weight design advantage of K-9 engines giving it obvious advantages in weight and fuselage drag regime.

SInce the empty weight of tejas went up k-9 couldn't be used, but that doesn't mean we have to go with begging bowl to any one for next gen engines,

If we design an airframe to maximize the efficiency with two K-9 engines in mind we can build a RAFALE class airframe with it. No disgraceful beggin bowl achievement this.

 

[ersakthivel]

AL-31 f has twr of 7.87:1, (wet thrust)

K-9 too has a TWR of around 7.25 : 1(wet thrust,)

So what do people make of it?

In dry TWR figures actually K-9 has 5.2 : 1

and
AL-31 F has 4.77:1, here K-9 has the edge.

DS blades or SC blades , the figure that counts is TWR, twin spool, fully digital controls and a bird hit survivability of giving 85 percent at mach 0.4 to mach 0.5, K-9 itself has it all without even SCB tech (all with simple DS blades )

What people don't understand and bluff about the lack of SCB is the low bypass ratio route chosen by GTRE enables us to get comparable thrust with even with DS blades , and gives an engine that has comparable TWR figure with much less weight and volume penalties,

All our fighter programs are not like the super sized Soviet types, We are planning for fighters that weigh less than half of Soiet era designs,

SO GTRE went with low by pass ratio , lower weight , lower space occupying design for k-9 and succeeded here almost, may be the tejas weight has gone up making the engine unsuitable for combat tejas right now,(K-10 can change it all).

But K-9 itself has comparable specs to the present snecma engines in RAFALE which generate 45 kn dry and 75 Kn wet thrust for their 900 Kg weight.

So right now if tejas mk-3 stealth is taken up we almost have the engines ready at hand. may be for AMCA w need bigger engines with higher Thrust requiring SCb tech of new gen. But if we chose to develop a bit lighter Tejas stealth mk-3 version this engine is more than enough

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Different class of engines-

Didn't know engine has class too .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

WS-10 and 15 are more or less clones of AL-31 of Russian engines, AL-31 is a large engine design for heavy fighters, Were as Kaveri and GE-404 & 414 so does Russian RD-33 & French Snecma M88 fall for medium and light fighters ..

Let me give some pics and there dimensions and other specs =================>>

Saturn AL-31

Type: Two-shaft afterburning turbofan
Length: 4,990 millimetres
Diameter: 1,280 millimetres
Dry weight: 1,570 kilograms

==================
==================

Kaveri

Type: afterburning turbofan
Length: 3490 mm
Diameter: 910 mm
Dry weight: 1,235 kg

==================
==================

General Electric F414

Type: Afterburning turbofan
Length: 3,912 mm
Diameter: 889 mm
Dry weight: 1,110 kg

==================
==================

Klimov RD-33

type: afterburning turbofan
Length: 4,229 mm
Diameter: 1,000 mm
Dry weight: 1,055 kg


===================
===================

Engines comes in different shape and size for different Class of fighters ..

how can we say that chinese r not far ahead . WS 10 is 130 Kn engine & is operational on J-10 & j-16 . They r going for WS 15 a 180 Kn engine .

 

[aerokan]

Obviously, we need the number of engines we ordered.

The engine life is 1600-2000 hours. 2000 hours is the manufacturer figure.

Airframe life is 4000 hours for MKI. This is not counting the MLU. So, we will need minimum 4 engines for each MKI. If we bring in MLUs we will need two to four more for the entirety of the MKI's lifetime.

Basically, we will need a pair of engines for one MKI every decade it is in service. So, over 40 years that is 4 sets of engines.

If we upgrade the AL-31FP to 117S standard, then we will need just a pair of engines every 20 years, bringing down the costs of operation by a huge margin. This may have been taken into consideration since we will need a set amount of numbers for maintenance and reserves. It is possible we will have 2 pairs of engines for the first 20 years followed by one pair of engines for the final 20 years.

So, 6*270 = 1620 engines for all MKIs for 40 years + 270 engines as reserve. This is just my guesstimate. If we start using 117S standard engine even earlier then we will have more reserves which makes more sense.

So it means whatever ToT we get to prepare engines from raw material stage is pretty much useless and is not going to impart any useful hands-on experience incase of emergencies and will still involve the learning curve. Isn't it?

 

[p2prada]

So it means whatever ToT we get to prepare engines from raw material stage is pretty much useless and is not going to impart any useful hands-on experience incase of emergencies and will still involve the learning curve. Isn't it?

Why?

 

[aerokan]

Our first engine from raw materials stage was made in 2010.

This is a second contract for 920 engines over the first contract for 900+ engines (970 IIRC) signed in 2000.

The largest Russian-Indian contract - News - Politics - Russian Radio

Total AL-31 engines for IAF MKIs will be around 2000 by 2030. This contract is also following the same phases as before. Kits from Russia followed by indigenous production in a few years.

So, 6*270 = 1620 engines for all MKIs for 40 years + 270 engines as reserve

Why?

Around 1900 engines with reserves required for MKI and we already ordered 900+ and 920 engines as per your info. So where is the requirement for manufacturing these engines from raw material stage? Any other uses for these engines in our inventory?

 

[ersakthivel]

RD-93 is 4229 mm long and dia is above 1000 mm, and ts reliability is something you ask to JF-17 pilot,

 

[p2prada]

Around 1900 engines with reserves required for MKI and we already ordered 900+ and 920 engines as per your info. So where is the requirement for manufacturing these engines from raw material stage? Any other uses for these engines in our inventory?

I don't get your questions.

What do you mean by "where is the requirement?"

And can you be a bit more clear with "other uses?" Even the Russians don't have "other uses" for AL-31. It just a fighter engine.

 

[aerokan]

I don't get your questions.

What do you mean by "where is the requirement?"

And can you be a bit more clear with "other uses?" Even the Russians don't have "other uses" for AL-31. It just a fighter engine.

If the total MKI engine requirement of around is 1890 is fulfilled by the two orders of 1820+ engines (920 + 900+), why would anybody manufacture more engines of AL-31 unless there is a requirement? When i asked about 'other uses', it means if there are any other fighter programs or UAV programs using this engine. So if no other fighter program uses these engines other than MKI and if the requirement will be fulfilled by the current orders, then why would anybody manufacture more engines of the same kind?

 

[p2prada]

If the total MKI engine requirement of around is 1890 is fulfilled by the two orders of 1820+ engines (920 + 900+), why would anybody manufacture more engines of AL-31 unless there is a requirement?

Sure. Nobody will manufacture more engines than what is required.

When i asked about 'other uses', it means if there are any other fighter programs or UAV programs using this engine.

The Russians were trying to upgrade our Mig-27 with AL-31, but IAF rejected it.

So if no other fighter program uses these engines other than MKI and if the requirement will be fulfilled by the current orders, then why would anybody manufacture more engines of the same kind?

I don't get your post at all. Who is manufacturing more engines?

 

[aerokan]

Sure. Nobody will manufacture more engines than what is required.



The Russians were trying to upgrade our Mig-27 with AL-31, but IAF rejected it.



I don't get your post at all. Who is manufacturing more engines?

Who will manufacture more engines for our MKI's from the raw material stage when the requirement is no longer there? No one.

It was following your statement that our first engine from raw materials stage was made in 2010. I don't understand the reason to make it when there is no requirement, other than just to prove that we can.

 

[Jagdish58]

I think DRDO has to bring in more Private involvement into Kaveri project till the sort out the contract with Snecma :thumb:

 

[Twinblade]

I think DRDO has to bring in more Private involvement into Kaveri project till the sort out the contract with Snecma :thumb:

I feel you bro. On one hand Tata is supplying single crystal blisks to Pratt and Whitney, Reliance is designed low RCS thrust vectoring nozzles for F-22 and Salyut and Saturn consult L&T for engine design issues for Pak-Fa and here we are stuck with GTRE and HAL. Shame on us

 

[Jagdish58]

I feel you bro. On one hand Tata is supplying single crystal blisks to Pratt and Whitney, Reliance is designed low RCS thrust vectoring nozzles for F-22 and Salyut and Saturn consult L&T for engine design issues for Pak-Fa and here we are stuck with GTRE and HAL. Shame on us

Here is the proof of Tremondous potential of Indian Private company , only thing is DRDO & HAL & Other Public defence company needs to take that use in better way instead of thinking them as competitors & one day they will become reason for closing Govt Companies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIJdS1dPLxU

 

[p2prada]

Who will manufacture more engines for our MKI's from the raw material stage when the requirement is no longer there? No one.

It was following your statement that our first engine from raw materials stage was made in 2010. I don't understand the reason to make it when there is no requirement, other than just to prove that we can.

There is a requirement for more engines. That's why we ordered them again.

They will be manufactured in HAL's Koraput engine division.

The process is the same as before. We will get the first tranche of engines as kits and after a certain number is up, we will start manufacturing them from raw materials stage.