Kaveri Engine

rvjpheonix

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:facepalm:

I feel you bro. On one hand Tata is supplying single crystal blisks to Pratt and Whitney, Reliance is designed low RCS thrust vectoring nozzles for F-22 and Salyut and Saturn consult L&T for engine design issues for Pak-Fa and here we are stuck with GTRE and HAL. Shame on us :p :troll:
Someone doesnt get the sarcasm:rofl:
 

aerokan

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There is a requirement for more engines. That's why we ordered them again.

They will be manufactured in HAL's Koraput engine division.

The process is the same as before. We will get the first tranche of engines as kits and after a certain number is up, we will start manufacturing them from raw materials stage.
The abovementioned option was exercised in October 2012. Following the agreement signed the deliveries will be continued over the next ten years and the first batch of kits will be delivered to India in the first quarter of 2013, UMPO noted.
If the first trache of engines are delivered as kits and the engines will be subsequent manufacturing locally from raw material stage, then why do we need to take deliveries over the period of next 10 years?
 

sayareakd

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I think DRDO has to bring in more Private involvement into Kaveri project till the sort out the contract with Snecma :thumb:
Govt funded private R&D means half of the money goes into someone elses pocket and they work with other half..........
 

p2prada

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If the first trache of engines are delivered as kits and the engines will be subsequent manufacturing locally from raw material stage, then why do we need to take deliveries over the period of next 10 years?
We plan on manufacturing at X numbers/year so that we can use them until 2040.

It is possible kit deliveries will continue until 2022-23 followed by indigenous manufacturing from 2023 onwards for Y number until 2030. We don't know the delivery schedule. It is not open source information. It was similar to our first batch where we started assembly a decade before we could reach raw materials stage.

Earlier we signed our first deal in 2000 and started raw materials manufacturing in 2010. This is to go on until 2017. That's 10 years of kit assembly and 7 years of manufacturing. Looks like we have the same schedule again.
 

Kyubi

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I think DRDO has to bring in more Private involvement into Kaveri project till the sort out the contract with Snecma :thumb:
IMHO our pvt companies do not have the infrastructure nor do they have R&D base to help GTRI with the project, at best we may have 2nd tier or 3rd tier engineering solutions providers who might help in with the project. But Technology base for Turbine research is very much at a nascent stage wrt private companies, in retrospect GTRI as a Research lab has done immense work interms of R&D in aero engines, hence for the moment the ideal way is to delegate some aspects of the project be it manufacturing components or certain engineering solutions to private entities. Expecting an equal partnership in R&D is for distant future. JV or TOT can only happen when both the parties have adequate expertise in terms of infrastructure, technology base, customer base and it is feasible to happen between a well established foreign entity and GTRI (India).
 

Punya Pratap

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What really defies logic is that as a nation we are in a very select league of nations who have Cryogenic engine and yet have nt managed to make our own jet engine!! Indie truly is a nation of contradictions!!
I suggest we get ISRO involved while we are discussing who all should be brought into developing Kaveri
:rofl:
 

Twinblade

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I suggest we get ISRO involved while we are discussing who all should be brought into developing Kaveri
:facepalm:
I feel you bro. Why just ISRO, let's include all of our better performing institutions in engine making. The Election Commission, The Supreme Court Of India, The Comptroller and Auditor General, Pulse polio mission, Amul Milk Cooperative etc etc. Gas turbine engines might not be their core competency but they are good people, they will definitely figure a way out.
:troll:
 

Kyubi

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I suggest we get ISRO involved while we are discussing who all should be brought into developing Kaveri
:rofl:
:toilet:

Dude i hope you know that there is a huge difference between a cryogenic engine and a gas turbine..
 

Punya Pratap

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:toilet:

Dude i hope you know that there is a huge difference between a cryogenic engine and a gas turbine..
Mate I hope you understand sarcasm when I say get ISRO on board to help sort out the mess.
Besides they ought to know a bit about high temp withstanding engine components. Also after GSLV launch I can say they are light years ahead on tech R&D so may be they can act as in advisory capacity to suggest if nothing else but alloy for SCB.
Take it as informed joke that desperate times call for desperate measures !
 

Kyubi

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Mate I hope you understand sarcasm when I say get ISRO on board to help sort out the mess.
Besides they ought to know a bit about high temp withstanding engine components. Also after GSLV launch I can say they are light years ahead on tech R&D so may be they can act as in advisory capacity to suggest if nothing else but alloy for SCB.
Take it as informed joke that desperate times call for desperate measures !
Bro i do understand your thoughts, but involving ISRO into Kaveri Engine is just not viable, Though according one report by Hindustan times which says DRDO is still a subcontractor for ISRO, we cant expect it to help in Material Tech for SCB , for that we have DMRL which has according to a report produced SCB which has been certified by CEMILAC and given for batch production to HAL Koraput..





AFAIK Kaveri engine has achieved its parameters for what it was designed for, on the question of why it is not used for LCA tejas is because the design parameters WRT to wing's was changed and engine thrust parameters were changed half way and at that time kaveri engine design had been frozen. Once the Engine design is frozen nothing much can be done to enhance the thrust..

Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines

DRDO is a recipient of rocket tech from ISRO, I have my own doubts regarding their efficacy in material tech for turbine research.. Material tech for withstanding high temp in cryoengine is different from Turbine, in Cryo tech we need materials that withstand cryo temp.. High temp withstanding materials used in rockets will not be suitable for turbine's mechanical components. The combustion phenomenon is totally different in turbine vis-a-viz of a rocket. Hence my understanding that ISRO helping out GTRI with materials is simply not viable...
 

Jagdish58

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What really defies logic is that as a nation we are in a very select league of nations who have Cryogenic engine and yet have nt managed to make our own jet engine!! Indie truly is a nation of contradictions!!
I suggest we get ISRO involved while we are discussing who all should be brought into developing Kaveri
:rofl:
ISRO top class when it comes to Project management , Failure cannot lingure to long with them:thumb:

You have really got the point:thumb:
 

Srinivas_K

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What really defies logic is that as a nation we are in a very select league of nations who have Cryogenic engine and yet have nt managed to make our own jet engine!! Indie truly is a nation of contradictions!!
I suggest we get ISRO involved while we are discussing who all should be brought into developing Kaveri
:rofl:
The bold part sounds like a neighboring nation, not India :thumb:
 
Last edited:

sayareakd

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What really defies logic is that as a nation we are in a very select league of nations who have Cryogenic engine and yet have nt managed to make our own jet engine!! Indie truly is a nation of contradictions!!
I suggest we get ISRO involved while we are discussing who all should be brought into developing Kaveri
:rofl:
With due regard to ISRO guys who have done great work, you cant compare unmanned rocket engine with fighter engine. Specially with the fact that fighter engine has to deliver every time or many a times pilots have ither lost their lives or suffered harm.
 

Twinblade

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How much time it will take ??
There is one round of flight testing and certification for Kaveri with DS blades, hopefully we will get to know about flight testing and certification with SC blades to the rated capacity of Kaveri. Two-three years for first, unknown for the second.
 

Twinblade

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A good summary of all the aero engine projects in India, foreign and domestic.
Saurav Jha's Blog : An 'engine' for India's growth
The fact that HAL can now effectively re-negotiate for better deals is also indicative of the fact that the Indian aerospace sector now has more options than it did in the wake of 1998 Pokhran tests. Early in 2013 the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), DRDO's jet engine design laboratory, revealed that the MoD had discontinued discussions with Snecma on bringing it as a partner for improving GTRE's GTX-35VS Kaveri engine. Although de-linked from the Tejas program, India needs to keep building on the Kaveri program for newer programs like the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project.

Given the specifications of the AMCA a much higher thrust engine than the designed output of the Kaveri will be required for the AMCA even though it is envisioned as a twin engine aircraft. Accordingly, tender documents show that GTRE's next turbofan is in the 110 KN wet and 75 KN dry thrust category. An engine of this capability will certainly require GTRE to master single crystal blade(SCB) technology, integrated rotor disk and blades and super alloys of nickel and cobalt. The Kaveri currently uses directionally solidified blade technology and neither that nor even first generation SCBs which can now be fashioned in India will suffice for the new engine. Snecma far from agreeing to transfer any relevant technologies was instead offering that the Kaveri's Kabini core be replaced by a Snecma ECO core which is the heart of the Snecma M88 that powers the Dassault Rafale.

While the Kaveri project has been the subject of much derision by various quarters, the fact remains that it has strengthened India's hand enough in the turbofan space to resist being a dumping ground for yesterday's technology. A lot of the delays in the development of the Kaveri project can also be attributed to the fact that India's industrial base has only now come up to speed to provide the necessary components for prototyping complex devices like modern low bypass turbofans. All the new activity detailed above however means that engine development can now be speeded up using domestic resources itself and this will naturally make foreign partners more amenable to offering better terms of trade.

In fact it is now time that India move quickly to set up a High Altitude Engine Test Facility at the earliest to reduce India's dependence on Russia's Glomov Flight Research Institute (GFRI) and expedite the process of development. It is also time to integrate the Kaveri as it exists onto one of the Tejas demonstrators because it is only when an engine actually flies in the relevant aircraft that designers gets the best feedback about the design. There is simply no short cut in this matter.

Even as India moves forward with domestic R&D, all eyes will be on the engine related offsets that flow from the mother of all aircraft acquisition programs - the MMRCA contract. The MoD, the IAF and DRDO must ensure that Snecma is not allowed to manoeuvre around technology transfer obligations this time over as it has tried to do for the Kaveri improvement contract. In fact given the massive order that Snecma will get from the MMRCA contract it in any case makes no sense to bring it in separately for improving the Kaveri. The MMRCA contract itself if it indeed comes to pass this year should give GTRE and HAL what they need by way of next generation engine technology.
The said single crystal blades made by DMRL from my earlier post. Bit disappointing that they are only first generation and might not suffice for AMCA engine but something is better than nothing.


Yeah right, we don't have any single crystal blade technology, all these single crystal blades made at DMRL are figments of my imagination.

Apologies to waste your time guys, XXXXXXXX knows it all, I am just a liar, a fraud and a charlatan photoshopping pictures out of thin air. All hail XXXXXXXX
 

Sea Eagle

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A good summary of all the aero engine projects in India, foreign and domestic.
Saurav Jha's Blog : An 'engine' for India's growth


The said single crystal blades made by DMRL from my earlier post. Bit disappointing that they are only first generation and might not suffice for AMCA engine but something is better than nothing.
The Cyrstal blades being made by china and India are at most second generation while veteran engine makers the French, Americans,Ruskies are all working/have developed on 4th generation crystal blades. So a lot work is still to be done
 

janme

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Are we going to test Kaveri engine on Mig-29 this year??

And where should i search for thread about Naval Kaveri engne??
 

ersakthivel

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ISRO top class when it comes to Project management , Failure cannot lingure to long with them:thumb:

You have really got the point:thumb:
The ISRO cryogenic engine is at y=the 1960s western tech level,

The GTRE K-9 which did complete high altitude testing is attempting to reach the 1990s western jet engine tech with a TWR of close to 8,

For the K-9 Success we requires only DS blades, even that can not be manufactured in india till recently,

Now batch production SCBs are being tested for certification in CEMILAC as per ADA DG Tamilmani's statement.

SO you can understand the tech level.
 

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