Kaveri Engine

[Arpuster]

True, neither the Muricans nor the Britshits can be trusted. I wonder what is the govt. thinking, Safran is the best partner, diplomatically and technologically(though not on par with Pratt and Whitney to some extent GE) as well.

Safran has been choosen to partner HAL for IMRH engine. Can you tell if IP, technology or authority to modification will be transferred in that deal??

 

[Abheer Parashar]

Safran has been choosen to partner HAL for IMRH engine. Can you tell if IP, technology or authority to modification will be transferred in that deal??

Well I do not have idea about that, sir. But I would like to say that HAL should focus more on HTSE-1200 and create a family of heli-engines and should rely less on French(though they are reliable partners).

 

[TopWatcher]

True, neither the Muricans nor the Britshits can be trusted. I wonder what is the govt. thinking, Safran is the best partner, diplomatically and technologically(though not on par with Pratt and Whitney to some extent GE) as well.

I dont think so, no country will ever give aero engine technology know how.

Best India try their RnD efforts,

 

[Abheer Parashar]

I dont think so, no country will ever give aero engine technology know how.

Best India try their RnD efforts,

Well sir, I am no expert in the diplomacy of sharing of know-hows but I am damn sure they will part with the tech if given a hefty sum of money, as they have been a good diplomatic ally for a decade or two. However, indigenous R&D is always appreciated and strongly supported from my side any day.

 

[Arpuster]

Well I do not have idea about that, sir. But I would like to say that HAL should focus more on HTSE-1200 and create a family of heli-engines and should rely less on French(though they are reliable partners).

Well I do not have idea about that, sir. But I would like to say that HAL should focus more on HTSE-1200 and create a family of heli-engines and should rely less on French(though they are reliable partners).

How can you say Sarfran is a reliable partner then? HAL developed Shakti engine developed with Safran 2 decades ago but is still dependent on Safran for critical parts and didn’t get any know why.

 

[Abheer Parashar]

How can you say Sarfran is a reliable partner then? HAL developed Shakti engine developed with Safran 2 decades ago but is still dependent on Safran for critical parts and didn’t get any know why.

Sir, I already told in my opinion, they "might" give us the know-how or know-why, "if paid with a hefty sum of money". Other than that, HAL is quite independent now, you can see that the HTSE-1200 engine is equipped with Single-crystal blades which is a cutting-edge tech.

 

[Abheer Parashar]

Sir, I already told in my opinion, they "might" give us the know-how or know-why, "if paid with a hefty sum of money". Other than that, HAL is quite independent now, you can see that the HTSE-1200 engine is equipped with Single-crystal blades which is a cutting-edge tech.

And I am not well-informed about the deal b/w French and HAL for Shakti engine, sir, so I can't comment much on this issue.

 

[BON PLAN]

Would Germany be able to block the export of FCAS or the FCAS engine to India?
One of the big advantages of the Rafale is that you only have to deal with France.

France forced Germany to sign a deal avoiding that kind of problem already seen on Meteor, A400M...

 

[Arpuster]

Sir, I already told in my opinion, they "might" give us the know-how or know-why, "if paid with a hefty sum of money". Other than that, HAL is quite independent now, you can see that the HTSE-1200 engine is equipped with Single-crystal blades which is a cutting-edge tech.

I just wanted to know the reason for such assumption/opinion of yours that Safran “might” give know why even after getting huge sum of money. I think you dont have any. I feel that British are more likely to give it for money than France. The reason for my assumption is that only British have ever transferred the technology of jet engines in the history and every country making jet engines today got that technology from Britishers only.

 

[Abheer Parashar]

I just wanted to know the reason for such assumption/opinion of yours that Safran “might” give know why even after getting huge sum of money. I think you dont have any. I feel that British are more likely to give it for money than France. The reason for my assumption is that only British have ever transferred the technology of jet engines in the history and every country making jet engines today got that technology from Britishers only.

Sir, with all due respect, I never said that British won't give the technology, infact they are more than willing to give us the tech because of their financial status and future programmes. I said that French might part with their technology because France and India have long standing relations since the Pokhran Test in the late 90s. My opinion might be wrong, though, I am not an expert, sir.

 

[Abheer Parashar]

NCCRD | National Centre for Combustion Research and Development , Chennai 6000000000

NCCRD, Aeronautics, deptCMS, college, department, website, IIT, Desto Creative Solutions, Chennai, app, web app, alokation, combustion, institute

nccrd.iitm.ac.in

National Center for Combustion Research and Development, a research Center under IIT Madras, is doing a really good work in combustion research especially in automotive and aerospace engines. The center's main research interest is interestingly in the hot section (combustor, turbine, afterburner and exhaust nozzle) of a gas turbine. Other than that, GE Aviation has recently invested in NCCRD, IIT-M by setting up of an extended combustor testing facility, making IIT-M the first institution in the world to have such facility on-campus. Worth visiting their website(link is given above) to look into their research in detail.

 

[Abheer Parashar]

NCCRD | National Centre for Combustion Research and Development , Chennai 6000000000

NCCRD, Aeronautics, deptCMS, college, department, website, IIT, Desto Creative Solutions, Chennai, app, web app, alokation, combustion, institute

nccrd.iitm.ac.in

National Center for Combustion Research and Development, a research Center under IIT Madras, is doing a really good work in combustion research especially in automotive and aerospace engines. The center's main research interest is interestingly in the hot section (combustor, turbine, afterburner and exhaust nozzle) of a gas turbine. Other than that, GE Aviation has recently invested in NCCRD, IIT-M by setting up of an extended combustor testing facility, making IIT-M the first institution in the world to have such facility on-campus. Worth visiting their website(link is given above) to look into their research in detail.

I think govt. really needs to form a consortium including GTRE, AERDC(HAL), IIT-K, IISc and IIT-M for the R&D of jet engines. The amount of work being done in IITs like IIT Madras, Kanpur and IISc is truly commendable.

 

[Arpuster]

MoD seeks roadmap for aero-engine ecosystem

www.ajaishukla.com

MoD seeks roadmap for aero-engine ecosystem

Indigenising gas turbine engines would save the defence ministry Rs 300,000 crore in the next 20 years​

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 8th Sept 22
An Indian defence consulting group, Insighteon Consulting, conducted an interactive war-game from August 23-25, to develop a roadmap for an aero engine ecosystem in India.
It was concluded that developing indigenous aero engines was a strategic necessity. The proliferation of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and low-cost cruise missiles, and the restrictions placed by foreign governments on the export of their engines and components, made it a national security imperative to develop indigenous aero engines and resilient supply chains for them.
Participants acknowledged that the “Make in India” initiative had saved the ministry of defence (MoD) more than Rs 100,000 crore in foreign exchange outflow in the last five years. Similarly, indigenising gas turbine engines would save the MoD Rs 300,000 crore in the next 20 years.
Participants in the war-game included scientists and technologists who have been closely associated with indigenous engine-development programmes. The include retired scientists from the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL), the DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Organisation (GTRE), representatives from private firms such as Godrej Aerospace, Paninian India and Bharat Forge, retired defence officers, bureaucrats, diplomats and think tank members.
It was acknowledged that the field of aero-engine development is not level for the current qualified, and globally certified, private sector players and for academic institutions. Instead, due to a trust deficit and the absence of inclusive policies for involving private players, aero engine research and development (R&D) remains a monopoly of the public sector.
It was concluded that the GTRE’s indigenous Kaveri engine project, which was being developed for the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), offered a negative model of development.
While the Tejas needs an engine with 82-90 kiloNewtons (kN) of peak thrust, the Kaveri only managed 72 kN during flight testing in Russia. The lack of testing infrastructure in India caused a delay of six years in the Kaveri engine development.
Currently, when the DRDO needs to test an engine, it is flown, along with a large flight test team, to the Gromov Flight Research Institute outside Moscow. Here, the engine is fitted onto a Russian IL-76 aircraft and its performance evaluated in flight. Before flight tests, it must undergo ground checks at Moscow’s Central Institute of Aviation Motors, in simulated altitudes up to 15 kilometers (49,200 feet). Creating such a flight-testing facility in India would save hundreds of crores and a great deal of time.
Unfit for the Tejas, it was decided that the Kaveri engine should be used in the future as a “dry aero-engine”, which means without afterburner thrust. This was felt to be sufficient for powering the unmanned fighter aircraft that are planned for the future – such as the RPSA, the Ghatak and other 3-8 tonne platforms.
It was felt that the importance of the small aero engine segment, which powered UAVs and low-cost cruise missiles, was underestimated. With India spending an increasing share of its defence budget on these, the small engine market for the next 20 years would be Rs 61,000 crores.
It was concluded that co-development of engines with original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) overseas would not result in new designs or modification/upgrade capability. For that, India would need to continue its efforts to develop indigenous engines in mission mode.
As a first step, the MoD needed to impose restrictions on itself on import of small aero engines, by adding them to the “positive indigenisation list”. Furthermore, the DRDO and NAL should be encouraged to release tenders for smaller engines to private entities, not just to GTRE/HAL.
It was recommended that the development of small engines should follow the 1 + 2 model, i.e. be developed by a consortium of a DPSU/DRDO laboratory, working with two private sector companies.
Finally, it was decided that a new structure, titled National Commission for Aero Engine Development (NCAED), should be created in order to have a single head under which design, development and production would come. It was felt this would promote a seamless, coordinated development programme.
The consultants felt that, with the nature of warfare changing, there is a move towards smaller and more numerous weapons systems. This trend is most visible in the dramatic changes in aerial warfare with the advent of Artificial Intelligence (AI) enabled UAVs or drones. HAL has already begun work on such systems, such as its futuristic Combat Air Teaming System (CATS). This has three separate components – CATS Warrior (Teaming drone), CATS Hunter (air-launched cruise missile) and Alpha-S (glider drone), all of which are unmanned systems, controlled by the pilot from the mothership via secure data links, and equipped with electro-optical and infrared sensors.
These smaller, unmanned systems require smaller, less powerful and less expensive engines.

Unverified report of Insighteon Consulting for this wargame mentions the aero engines under development in India as:-
1) Redesigned Kaveri (50/76 kN) for FUFA. Core to be used for ADE's RPSA
2) Dry Kaveri (46 kN) for UCAV with payload 1.5 T (probably RPSA mentioned above)
3) Small turbofan replacement engine for SWIFT UCAV's Russian engine
4) 1 kN small turbojet for UAVs, target drone
5) Small turbojet 2.7 kN for air to surface missile
6) RCI/NAL SGTJE 2.75 kN for UCAV

 

[Vamsi]

Unverified report of Insighteon Consulting for this wargame mentions the aero engines under development in India as:-
1) Redesigned Kaveri (50/76 kN) for FUFA. Core to be used for ADE's RPSA
2) Dry Kaveri (46 kN) for UCAV with payload 1.5 T (probably RPSA mentioned above)
3) Small turbofan replacement engine for SWIFT UCAV's Russian engine
4) 1 kN small turbojet for UAVs, target drone
5) Small turbojet 2.7 kN for air to surface missile
6) RCI/NAL SGTJE 2.75 kN for UCAV

1) Redesigned Kaveri is Wet Kaveri??

 

[Abheer Parashar]

1) Redesigned Kaveri is Wet Kaveri??

Sir, I guess it is the same Dry Kaveri which recently completed its tests in Russia, but with a newly designed afterburner and some design changes in the core.

 

[Arpuster]

1) Redesigned Kaveri is Wet Kaveri??

Probably Kaveri with redesigned afterburner. The fact that Kaveri with afterburner is planned for it means FUFA will be supersonic whereas Ghatak/RPSA with dry kaveri will be subsonic.

 

[AnantS]

Probably Kaveri with redesigned afterburner. The fact that Kaveri with afterburner is planned for it means FUFA will be supersonic whereas Ghatak/RPSA with dry kaveri will be subsonic.

huh what about BUA? And MASSI?

 

[Ugra Bhairav]

Probably Kaveri with redesigned afterburner. The fact that Kaveri with afterburner is planned for it means FUFA will be supersonic whereas Ghatak/RPSA with dry kaveri will be subsonic.

Dont disrespect FUFAji

Use "Ji" as suffix to show your respect to our FUFAji..

Thanx

Aham....Ahem...... Supersonic FUFAji

 

[Arpuster]

Dont disrespect FUFAji

Use "Ji" as suffix to show your respect to our FUFAji..

Thanx

Aham....Ahem...... Supersonic FUFAji

okji
But on a serious note i have few questions:-
1) Is supersonic FUFAji, India’s 6th gen LCA??
2) 2.7 kN engine for which air to surface missile?? Coz LRLACM is going to use Manik engine. Is this the LRSOW which got approved recently??
3) If there is engine replacement program for SWIFT, Does that mean it will be produced in mass??
@porky_kicker

 

[Abheer Parashar]

1) Is supersonic FUFAji, India’s 6th gen LCA?

Sir ji, I think that FUFA might be a 5th gen minus or 5th gen LCA bcz Kaveri is itself a 4th gen engine which might not be ideal for infrared signature suppression and stealth, but as reported above that a redesigned Kaveri is under R&D, it might well be a semi-stealth/stealth variant of Kaveri ideal for stealth and IR signature suppression (more like upgrading it to 4.5 gen or 5th gen minus engine).