Kaveri Engine

[BON PLAN]

Tell me, how will it benefit French, if we get the complete "know-how" & "Know-why" of the aero engines??
India will no longer will be your customer & you will no longer be our supplier,

but if it's a screwdrivergiri then this eternal Customer - supplier relationship can be maintained, isn't it??

For exemple India may be a customer for a common AMCA - New Jet Fighter engine. To dispatch the R&D effort and cost by two is a good idea for France (because the NJF engine will massively be studied and produce by Safran) and India.
To have a low cost and trustable supplier (India) for some parts is also interesting for France to be competitive against USA.

India will have its own jet engine in the future, as China seems to finally have, but not at the best technological level before decades. For exemple in term of crystal blades : USA level >= French Level >> Indian level.

 

[Vamsi]

For exemple India may be a customer for a common AMCA - New Jet Fighter engine. To dispatch the R&D effort and cost by two is a good idea for France (because the NJF engine will massively be studied and produce by Safran) and India.

This will reduce the R&D cost, as well as the production cost, benifit for French,no doubt

To have a low cost and trustable supplier (India) for some parts is also interesting for France to be competitive against USA.

Those "some parts" will be cold section, definitely NOT hot section. Hot section will be developed by French alone, no one with a sane mind will share this key technology ( I am not blaming you here, this is what everyone does, including us)

India will have its own jet engine in the future, as China seems to finally have, but not at the best technological level before decades. For exemple in term of crystal blades : USA level >= French Level >> Indian level.

India will never have its own jet engine,we will remain in perpetual screwdrivergiri, in future we will again have to run towards you.

 

[no smoking]

What is this story ? alternate history?
US used scientists of all the world to study the A bomb, and not speciffically GB ones.

Did I say or even imply that no other countries' scientists involved?

Full article: “Crucial? Helpful? Practically Nil?” Reality and Perception of Britain’s Contribution to the Development of Nuclear Weapons during the Second World War (tandfonline.com)

The Story of How Britain Got Nuclear Weapons | The National Interest

Quote:"The British Empire was the first nation to investigate nuclear explosives seriously. By 1941, the Brits had calculated the critical mass of fissionable material required for a bomb, worked out the basics of bomb design and the gaseous diffusion enrichment of uranium. All this information came to the United States with the "British Mission"—the team of top-flight British scientists who joined the Manhattan Project. "

 

[MonaLazy]

This will reduce the R&D cost, as well as the production cost, benifit for French,no doubt

So? That's what a win-win looks like.

Those "some parts" will be cold section, definitely NOT hot section. Hot section will be developed by French alone, no one with a sane mind will share this key technology ( I am not blaming you here, this is what everyone does, including us)

The French have promised complete transfer of know-how and know-why. They have also said this level of tech has not been offered to anyone before.

Before we start doubting their intent and our resolve- let's commit money, effort & time to the JV! How does casting aspersions before the project even takes off help anyone's cause? However valid your fears may be?

India will never have its own jet engine,we will remain in perpetual screwdrivergiri, in future we will again have to run towards you.

Kaveri? They will soon fly it.

 

[Vamsi]

So? That's what a win-win looks like.

Interms of money, not technology

The French have promised complete transfer of know-how and know-why. They have also said this level of tech has not been offered to anyone before.

They will say it, but they won't give it.

When Kaveri's problem is in afterburner, instead of fixing that, they proposed to replace the perfectly working Kabini core with M-88 core. What do you say about that ,eh?? & You believe these guys would give you the complete know-why

Before we start doubting their intent and our resolve- let's commit money, effort & time to the JV! How does casting aspersions before the project even takes off help anyone's cause? However valid your fears may be?

My fears are rational, I don't want another scenario where we spend billions like in the Su-30,FGFA case & end up in screwdrivergiri

Kaveri? They will soon fly it.

Yes it will, but only dry version

 

[TopWatcher]

This will reduce the R&D cost, as well as the production cost, benifit for French,no doubt


Those "some parts" will be cold section, definitely NOT hot section. Hot section will be developed by French alone, no one with a sane mind will share this key technology ( I am not blaming you here, this is what everyone does, including us)


India will never have its own jet engine,we will remain in perpetual screwdrivergiri, in future we will again have to run towards you.

Cant we further work on kaveri, atleast we getting some success. Why u saying this ? its means govt don't want that capability and don't want to invest in RnD.

If we continue work on kaveri than i think we can have own jet engine.

 

[Vamsi]

Cant we further work on kaveri, atleast we getting some success.

It can happen if they want

Why u saying this ? its means govt don't want that capability and don't want to invest in RnD.

Our babus & politic*cks want everything cheap & that too within small timeframe, thats where the problem lies, these m**f**kers spent just around 3K crores in total for Kaveri engine & they expected a F404 level engine....shamelessly repeating same mistake now

 

[MonaLazy]

Interms of money, not technology

Bit by bit, we are moving up the value chain.

PTC Inds hits the roof after subsidiary bags contract from Safran Aircraft Engines

PTC Industries was locked in 10% upper circuit at Rs 2832.95 after the company announced that its subsidiary has bagged contract for supply of Titanium cast components for aero engines from Safran Aircraft.

www.business-standard.com

Aerolloy Technologies (ATL), wholly owned subsidiary of PTC Industries, is a manufacturer of strategic and critical materials and high-integrity metal components, for various critical and super-critical applications in aerospace. ATL has has received an order from Safran Aircraft Engines (SAE), for development and supply of Titanium cast components for aircraft engines.

This order will establish our technological capabilities on the global stage and will cement us as a trusted supplier in the global aerospace industry, paving the way for more such future collaborations.

They will say it, but they won't give it.

When Kaveri's problem is in afterburner, instead of fixing that, they proposed to replace the perfectly working Kabini core with M-88 core. What do you say about that ,eh?? & You believe these guys would give you the complete know-why

There were problems in the core too- weren't there? The blades flying off in all directions and screech in the engine making it unbearably loud etc. As a seller it was their job to offer M-88 core, as a customer it was our job to send that offer packing and insist on fixing the Kaveri core itself. How do you think Kaveri suddenly matured and is now ready to be integrated with Tejas?

Kaveri Engine

A decade is a "normal" time to developp from scratch an engine.

defenceforumindia.com

Kaveri Engine

A decade is a "normal" time to developp from scratch an engine.

defenceforumindia.com

My fears are rational, I don't want another scenario where we spend billions like in the Su-30,FGFA case & end up in screwdrivergiri

What was the state of our aero industry in 1996 when we signed the deal for Su-30s?- yet we managed to MKI'z it. Don't have such a low opinion of the people in powerful places in this country. We walked out of FGFA when we realized Russians were being stingy with sharing work. Both were good, mature decisions of their time.

Yes it will, but only dry version

Nope. Non AB version is for UCAVs, but even the 73kN after-burning version of Kaveri will fly soon. This engine has already been achieved so I am not crystal ball gazing. They are going ahead with integrating it on a Tejas and start taxi trials and go from there. If all goes well, Tejas will fly with the full 73kN AB version of Kaveri.

Exclusive | Indigenous Engine of Tejas on Its Way: ADE Director at DRDO Who Worked on LCA for 25 Years - News18

Indigenous content is very important for Atmanirbhar Bharat, Y Dilip told News18 at the Aero India 2023 in Bengaluru

www.news18.com

 

[Blademaster]

MonaLazy, it's a case of once bitten, twice shy.

 

[Vamsi]

There were problems in the core too- weren't there? The blades flying off in all directions and screech in the engine making it unbearably loud etc. As a seller it was their job to offer M-88 core, as a customer it was our job to send that offer packing and insist on fixing the Kaveri core itself. How do you think Kaveri suddenly matured and is now ready to be integrated with Tejas?

Fluttering in the fan was solved by us
Screech is in afterburner, not core, it was solved by us, not them
Kaveri achieved 52KN dry thrust long ago, nothing new it
The SCB DMS-4 & TBCs were indigenous development, there was no phoren hand in it

We walked out of FGFA when we realized Russians were being stingy with sharing work. Both were good, mature decisions of their time.

same gonna happen in 110KN engine deal, wait & watch

Also you haven't answered this question yet,


What will french gain, if they give us the complete "Know-how" & "Know-why" ? What will they gain by making us technologically independent??

 

[Abheer Parashar]

Fluttering in the fan was solved by us
Screech is in afterburner, not core, it was solved by us, not them
Kaveri achieved 52KN dry thrust long ago, nothing new it
The SCB DMS-4 & TBCs were indigenous development, there was no phoren hand in it


same gonna happen in 110KN engine deal, wait & watch

So it means, Safran never helped in the core of Kaveri ? So what happened to the offset clause of the Rafale deal ?

 

[Vamsi]

So it means, Safran never helped in the core of Kaveri ? So what happened to the offset clause of the Rafale deal ?

afaik, only thing they did is clearing Kaveri for limited flight envelope...other than that nothing happened, its dead

 

[Abheer Parashar]

afaik, only thing they did is clearing Kaveri for limited flight envelope...other than that nothing happened, its dead

"Its dead", you mean the offset clause ?

 

[MonaLazy]

MonaLazy, it's a case of once bitten, twice shy.

What is the once bitten you are referring to?

Back in the '60s it was the Indian gov itself that rejected a $500 million RR offer to develop more powerful Orpheus engines to power HF-24 Marut. Probably the same doubts as being suggested now got in the way then. Really, whose loss was it?

 

[MonaLazy]

Fluttering in the fan was solved by us
Screech is in afterburner, not core, it was solved by us, not them
Kaveri achieved 52KN dry thrust long ago, nothing new it
The SCB DMS-4 & TBCs were indigenous development, there was no phoren hand in it

If everything is so hunky dory then why is the F404 still powering the Tejas? Can you provide a source for the "all Kaveri problems were solved by us with no help" theory.

What will french gain, if they give us the complete "Know-how" & "Know-why" ? What will they gain by making us technologically independent??

It has been answered already, you have to overcome your bias, open your eyes and look.

 

[Vamsi]

If everything is so hunky dory then why is the F404 still powering the Tejas?

because of the wet thrust, it reached 73KN, what we need is atleast 85KN

 

[Vamsi]

It has been answered already, you have to overcome your bias, open your eyes and look.

No,you didn't

 

[AnantS]

because of the wet thrust, it reached 73KN, what we need is atleast 85KN

not to mention respetable lifecycle hours. 500 for dry is too low. airforce would be replacing engine every year - if those no's are true for wet kaveri too. I expect for wet hours to be even more less because of more temp extremes and moving parts.

 

[Blademaster]

because of the wet thrust, it reached 73KN, what we need is atleast 85KN

Lady said target was 78kN. She didn't say 85kN.

 

[Blademaster]

not to mention respetable lifecycle hours. 500 for dry is too low. airforce would be replacing engine every year - if those no's are true for wet kaveri too. I expect for wet hours to be even more less because of more temp extremes and moving parts.

Let's concentrate on getting the necessary thrust and then work on expanding the lifecycle of the engine.