Kaveri Engine

[karn]

Kaveri can fly Tejas- also confirmed by Dr Tessy Thomas

Waah .. well said ninda ji invoking panipat and all .. Now please release funds for the flying test bed and high altitude test facilty.

 

[MonaLazy]

For Kaveri , wet thrust target is 90KN

Wet thrust was specc'd to be 80kN in the ASQR, 90kN was just IAF's "desire".

BRF Project: India's Kaveri Engine Saga (No Discussions) - Bharat Rakshak

So just like any other turbojet/turbofan program, Kaveri also had it's performance (Th - 52/80KN, SFC - 80/207 kg/kN.h, TWR - 76N/Kg) parameters define to be achieved within the specified dimensional constraints (of L - 3.5m, D - 0.9m and Wt - 950Kg). Those performance and dimensional parameters are around which the LCA airframe dimension, strength and overall design (e.g. air-intake design) itself were specified.

PS: Also as I've pointed out in my previous post, these parameters were not only contemporary but actually world-beaters in those days - recall, how when the Kaveri design/performance-parameter-specifying-committee tried to look for another existing (or being on the verge of being put into use) military turbofan to cross-validate and baseline Kaveri’s parametric-model against what they’d have actually achieved (as opposed to copy-paste from some shiny brochures), they couldn't find any.
This should also put to rest, any notion of modesty/reticence towards the sheer technological scale this program intended to leap-frog – some may rightly say, that we aimed too high.

 

[AnantS]

500 hr Life Cycle for Kavery Dry engine seem to be low

 

[karn]

500 hr Life Cycle for Kavery Dry engine seem to be low

Don't worry about it . The limiting factor here is the airborne time to test the engine vs the actual performance of the engine. This is exactly why the number of hours on the tejas airframe itself is so low . HAL only commissioned their testing stand last year.

 

[WolfPack86]

KAVERI DRY TURBOFAN ENGINE SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETES HIGH ALTITUDE TRAIL AT RUSSIAN FACILITY
In a significant development, DRDO's Kaveri Dry Engine has successfully completed high altitude trials at a Russian facility, this is a milestone in engine development program reported Reach Defence.


It was tested at various conditions of pressure, Mach and thrust,
Simulated - 46kN
Achieved - 48.5 kN

India’s dependence on Russia for conducting simulated high altitude tests and flight test bed testing was causing delays to the flight-testing of the Kaveri dry engine. A derivative of the indigenous Kaveri military gas turbine aero engine that has been under development at the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO’s) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) since 1989, the Kaveri dry engine is meant to power India’s first stealth, unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV), the Ghatak.

In March 2022 it was reported that GTRE was ready with the engine for its eagerly awaited simulated high altitude tests. Designers working on the Kaveri Dry engine explained that simulated tests basically simulate high altitude conditions on the ground. GTRE positioned the engine in the flying test bed (FTB), which is a modified Ilyushin (Il)-76 fixed-wing, four-engine turbofan aircraft. The Kaveri Dry engine will replace one of the Il-76's four engines in the FTB.

GTRE is hoping to complete all tests by 2024-25 and commence limited series production by 2025-26. The production agency is likely to be the public sector aviation major Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

India, which hopes to join the handful of global aviation majors who have mastered gas turbine aero engine technology, does not even possess a fully functional wind tunnel facility that is essential to study aerodynamic characteristics. Such a facility can simulate and test an engine designed to work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above the ground and will give designers the freedom to scale up or down, test and validate the hundreds of components.

Scientists at DRDO confessed that the lack of such a facility means that an engine being indigenously designed has to be carted to Russia (Gromov Flight Research Institute) or elsewhere, making it a time-consuming process.

Kaveri Dry Turbofan Engine Successfully Completes High Altitude Trail At Russian Facility

In a significant development, DRDO's Kaveri Dry Engine has successfully completed high altitude trials at a Russian facility, this is a mile...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[Steven Rogers]

Waah .. well said ninda ji invoking panipat and all .. Now please release funds for the flying test bed and high altitude test facilty.

Ninda ji did what a politician of Atal Bihari era use to do in his/her speeches,he probably forgot that the stage where he was making a speech was not a political one...

 

[WarmongerLSK]

Wet thrust was specc'd to be 80kN in the ASQR, 90kN was just IAF's "desire".

BRF Project: India's Kaveri Engine Saga (No Discussions) - Bharat Rakshak

So just like any other turbojet/turbofan program, Kaveri also had it's performance (Th - 52/80KN, SFC - 80/207 kg/kN.h, TWR - 76N/Kg) parameters define to be achieved within the specified dimensional constraints (of L - 3.5m, D - 0.9m and Wt - 950Kg). Those performance and dimensional parameters are around which the LCA airframe dimension, strength and overall design (e.g. air-intake design) itself were specified.

PS: Also as I've pointed out in my previous post, these parameters were not only contemporary but actually world-beaters in those days - recall, how when the Kaveri design/performance-parameter-specifying-committee tried to look for another existing (or being on the verge of being put into use) military turbofan to cross-validate and baseline Kaveri’s parametric-model against what they’d have actually achieved (as opposed to copy-paste from some shiny brochures), they couldn't find any.
This should also put to rest, any notion of modesty/reticence towards the sheer technological scale this program intended to leap-frog – some may rightly say, that we aimed too high.

Sorry, I didn't get it, who set those performance parameters? HAL? Who was Kaveri design/performance-parameter-specifying-committee?

 

[MrPresident]

Was talking to a person from Godrej Aeroapce, they said that they are working on 50kN Engine without the afterburner and blades from Midhani. Dint mention the utilities of it though.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Was talking to a person from Godrej Aeroapce, they said that they are working on 50kN Engine without the afterburner and blades from Midhani. Dint mention the utilities of it though.

Having reliable indigenous turbofan engines for even UAVs are huge in itself. And we have at least 3 drones lined up in development that could utilize them.

 

[MonaLazy]

Sorry, I didn't get it, who set those performance parameters? HAL? Who was Kaveri design/performance-parameter-specifying-committee?

Performance parameters are decided by the user, IAF's ASQRs in this case. If it was any of the others you mentioned we would not be chasing unobtanium.

IA & IAF have been following a by now boring strategy- lean on janes and create sky high *SQRs with utter disregard for the state of industry in India, then discourage DRDO/industry by not releasing funds on time, after several decades when a prototype finally appears beat it to death with unending trials (all this while don't care about profit for private industry), finally after all the trials & tribulations (and many re-engineerings later) when a product comes along- place token orders, costs will naturally be high and use that as a stick to deride it and close the program- claiming I told you so (bad press on our indigenous programs is picked up abroad and shapes their opinion of our products & capability) & pressurize the govt for imports as the only way out.

Only a government backed entity like DRDO can survive a customer like that. IN was forced into Atmanirbharta eons ago simply because it had to manage with the least budget and the easy way out with imports was unavailable. Hence it fared better.

 

[WarmongerLSK]

Performance parameters are decided by the user, IAF's ASQRs in this case. If it was any of the others you mentioned we would not be chasing unobtanium.

IA & IAF have been following a by now boring strategy- lean on janes and create sky high *SQRs with utter disregard for the state of industry in India, then discourage DRDO/industry by not releasing funds on time, after several decades when a prototype finally appears beat it to death with unending trials (all this while don't care about profit for private industry), finally after all the trials & tribulations (and many re-engineerings later) when a product comes along- place token orders, costs will naturally be high and use that as a stick to deride it and close the program- claiming I told you so (bad press on our indigenous programs is picked up abroad and shapes their opinion of our products & capability) & pressurize the govt for imports as the only way out.

Only a government backed entity like DRDO can survive a customer like that. IN was forced into Atmanirbharta eons ago simply because it had to manage with the least budget and the easy way out with imports was unavailable. Hence it fared better.

I see, Brochuritis strikes again!

 

[no smoking]

I don't disagree. But nuclear bomb making technology has been shared before between nations. How did the British get their nuclear weapons. Without US assistance it would have been difficult.

Wrong history!
It was the British which started the nuclear bomb program early before US, and already achieved certain progress long before Americans. But the war sucked out all their resources, so they had to work with Americans. As part of deal, British transferred all their achievement to US, and British scientists worked with American scientists on the nuclear program. This deal saved Americans a lot of time and money.
When American refused to share the bomb knowledge, it was British scientists figured it out based on their memories. And they still need to find out the missing part.

 

[no smoking]

Don't worry about it . The limiting factor here is the airborne time to test the engine vs the actual performance of the engine. This is exactly why the number of hours on the tejas airframe itself is so low . HAL only commissioned their testing stand last year.

That is exactly why it is too low!
Without airborne test, the so called life cycle hours is simply an estimation from paper. The history tells that the actual hours would be much lower than this figure. And don't forget this is without afterburner. That means if you put the missing part on, the actual hours would be squeezed even more.

 

[BON PLAN]

It won't happen.....no one will give you their crown jewel, no matter how much money you give to them....

Answer this simple question, will you give CE-20 engine technology to Vietnam or Malaysia or Greece or Egypt, just because they are willing to pay huge amount of money ??

I don't agree with you.
India is probably the sole country where it is possible to have a clear deal of such an importance. France is a old supplier of India, India is a reliable customer, not trying to copy and paste as the Chinese...
I see a bright future in the relation between France and India, on this subject and some others.

 

[BON PLAN]

Wrong history!
It was the British which started the nuclear bomb program early before US, and already achieved certain progress long before Americans. But the war sucked out all their resources, so they had to work with Americans. As part of deal, British transferred all their achievement to US, and British scientists worked with American scientists on the nuclear program. This deal saved Americans a lot of time and money.
When American refused to share the bomb knowledge, it was British scientists figured it out based on their memories. And they still need to find out the missing part.

What is this story ? alternate history?
US used scientists of all the world to study the A bomb, and not speciffically GB ones.

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

What is this story ? alternate history?
US used scientists of all the world to study the A bomb, and not speciffically GB ones.

Mostly germans

 

[Vamsi]

France is a old supplier of India, India is a reliable customer, not trying to copy and paste as the Chinese...
I see a bright future in the relation between France and India, on this subject and some others.

Tell me, how will it benefit French, if we get the complete "know-how" & "Know-why" of the aero engines??
India will no longer will be your customer & you will no longer be our supplier,

but if it's a screwdrivergiri then this eternal Customer - supplier relationship can be maintained, isn't it??

 

[MonaLazy]

Tell me, how will it benefit French, if we get the complete "know-how" & "Know-why" of the aero engines??
India will no longer will be your customer & you will no longer be our supplier,

but if it's a screwdrivergiri then this eternal Customer - supplier relationship can be maintained, isn't it??

French could possibly be a minority stake holder in a firm that spawns off all sorts of turbojets/turbofans for myriad aero applications in India. If the Americans or the Brits win the engine deal then they get 0, if the deal goes to the French they make quite a bit more than that- as royalties/profit. So stakes for all involved are high. If it was a lose-lose for Safran/GE/RR why would they even be talking to us?

 

[Vamsi]

French could possibly be a minority stake holder in a firm that spawns off all sorts of turbojets/turbofans for myriad aero applications in India. If the Americans or the Brits win the engine deal then they get 0, if the deal goes to the French they make quite a bit more than that- as royalties/profit. So stakes for all involved are high. If it was a lose-lose for Safran/GE/RR why would they even be talking to us?

You are still not getting the point, what they promise is full ToT, but what we get in reality is screwdrivergiri, that is what they are competing for !

India getting fully independent in technology is not in favour of super powers.

 

[BON PLAN]

Mostly germans

Oppenheimer : pure american (despite a german name)
Leo Szilard : Hungarian.
Enrico Fermi : Italian
Richard Feynman : pure american
John Von Neumann : another hungarian
Harlod Hurey : Canadian.

The sole german was Einstein. He was decisiv in a therorical way, and not involved in practice.