Kaveri Engine

[Covfefe]

AI is once every two years, next it will be in 2023, but your argument is totally plausible.

Somehow the inner me wishes for it to be RR. Their proposal, from what it's out in public, seems more attractive. US sanctions game seems far-fetched for now realistically but even if it happens we'll be left with dcik in our hands

 

[MonaLazy]

Somehow the inner me wishes for it to be RR. Their proposal, from what it's out in public, seems more attractive. US sanctions game seems far-fetched for now realistically but even if it happens we'll be left with dcik in our hands

Any specific points you see that make it stand out? From my PoV Safran is the better partner- they own the entire M88 and will be working on the crucial hot section of next gen engine for FCAS.

In terms of division on the engine development, both Safran and MTU Aero Engines will be working mostly in their field of expertise. The former will oversee the development of the hot parts of the engine and will perform integration tasks.

Safran Releases FCAS Fighter Aircraft Engine Details |

French-based engine manufacturer, Safran, has released details about the powerplant that will be employed by the Système de Combat Aérien du Futur (SCAF/Future Combat Air System, FCAS).

www.key.aero

RR's role in EJ200 is limited- which is the most contemporary production engine they have worked on. Even their partnership with GE for variable cycle engines ended too soon for them to learn anything meaningful from it. RR is not in very good financial health.

Rolls-Royce says 'worst behind us' as it posts £4bn loss

The plane-engine maker says 2020 was "unprecedented", but that air travel should bounce back this year.

www.bbc.com

Both RR & Safran promise full tech transfer (not sure about IPR with Safran tho) and are apparently quoting the same ball park figure.

Ready to partner India, transfer technology of jet engine: Safran

The offer gains significance as India has embarked on an ambitious plan to develop an advanced multirole fighter jet, with the Air Force insisting that it should be powered with an indigenous engine and home developed weapon systems.

m.economictimes.com

 

[Covfefe]

Any specific points you see that make it stand out? From my PoV Safran is the better partner- they own the entire M88 and will be working on the crucial hot section of next gen engine for FCAS.

Safran Releases FCAS Fighter Aircraft Engine Details |

French-based engine manufacturer, Safran, has released details about the powerplant that will be employed by the Système de Combat Aérien du Futur (SCAF/Future Combat Air System, FCAS).

www.key.aero

RR's role in EJ200 is limited- which is the most contemporary production engine they have worked on. Even their partnership with GE for variable cycle engines ended too soon for them to learn anything meaningful from it.

View attachment 126690

Both RR & Safran promise full tech transfer (not sure about IPR with Safran tho) and are apparently quoting the same ball park figure.

View attachment 126691

Ready to partner India, transfer technology of jet engine: Safran

The offer gains significance as India has embarked on an ambitious plan to develop an advanced multirole fighter jet, with the Air Force insisting that it should be powered with an indigenous engine and home developed weapon systems.

m.economictimes.com

Naah, I based it on their EJ200 success plus their IPR transfer commitment. Safran has been fairly hush-hush about it (and so has our side to be fair). RR's proposition is a clear 110kN engine with a verifiable process to increase the thrust up to 132 kN. But then, you must have read it better. From a business portfolio standpoint too, it made a lot more sense for RR given the whole gamut of prime mover business across Air Force and Navy both.

 

[Arpuster]

Aisa na ho ki Ka 226t ka engine india me bnane k liye ready hua ho safran.

 

[Whitecollar]

So I was right...GTRE did give a request for 2 different FTB. One was IL 76 for interim trials and the other one was Mig 29 for testing pre production single engine testing.

https://idrw.org/why-india-needs-to-invest-in-flying-test-bed-for-its-engine-program/

 

[MonaLazy]

So I was right...GTRE did give a request for 2 different FTB. One was IL 76 for interim trials and the other one was Mig 29 for testing pre production single engine testing.

https://idrw.org/why-india-needs-to-invest-in-flying-test-bed-for-its-engine-program/

Shows that the problem is not with our scientists in GTRE, but with the baboons in MoD. Maybe another compulsory visit to Siachen to speed things up?

 

[Vamsi]

Guys don't keep your hopes high about french promising us the complete tech transfer . They may give us only "know-how" ,but not " Know-why". No will give us "Know-why" , no matter how much money we throw at them.

Also note that I'm not completely against this JV. My only concern is about our workshare in hot section of the engine.

We can only expect good from this JV if and only if we utilise our own experience and knowledge that GTRE had gained from the development of Kaveri's hot section.

If we are not using our own experience and knowledge of hot section & have no workshare in its development and if we are completely dependent on french for it ,then all the hardwork and R&D we have done all these years regarding materials ,SCBs,TBCs etc will have no value at all.

So if we are going for this JV, then we must have workshare not only in Cold section ,but also in hot section too, our past experiences and knowledge regarding this must be used at all cost.We must not completely dependent on french for this.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Guys don't keep your hopes high about french promising us the complete tech transfer . They may give us only "know-how" ,but not " Know-why". No will give us "Know-why" , no matter how much money we throw at them.

Also note that I'm not completely against this JV. My only concern is about our workshare in hot section of the engine.

We can only expect good from this JV if and only if we utilise our own experience and knowledge that GTRE had gained from the development of Kaveri's hot section.

If we are not using our own experience and knowledge of hot section & have no workshare in its development and if we are completely dependent on french for it ,then all the hardwork and R&D we have done all these years regarding materials ,SCBs,TBCs etc will have no value at all.

So if we are going for this JV, then we must have workshare not only in Cold section ,but also in hot section too, our past experiences and knowledge regarding this must be used at all cost.We must not completely dependent on french for this.

so, in brits jv we will be using our own tech for blades and other things??

 

[Vamsi]

so, in brits jv we will be using our own tech for blades and other things??

We don't know anything about the JV, be it with French or Brits. But what I wanted to say is that we MUST have workshare in the development of the HOT SECTION , only then we can have complete "Know-how", "Know-why" & IPR.

 

[Concard]

Why are we going only for 110KN Jet Engine? Shouldn't we go for more powerful Engine in the class of 140KN? Given this Jet is only coming online next decade that too when things go well which in our case it hasn't if past is any indication, our import dalals in IAF would be ready why they don't want this Jet and instead prefer some shit from Russia. Barring in few areas like Missile Defense, Nuclear submarine technology Russian MIC is going down along with their economy. They will be more than happy to give kickbacks to our dalals to lobby for shitty Russian jets you know like the one we paid for in the last decade. Su-57, we paid $300 million for it's development and that is their work after syphoning most of the money. And they asked us to fund to the tune of $30 billion for total development of the Jet in return for 100 Su-57 without any transfer of technology. These Russian corrupt bastards will milk you to the bone.

There is nothing more I like than decoupling from Russia. Sooner it happens better for us. I hope by 2040 we won't be depending on Russians who are already in Chinese lap to supply crucial weapons for us. Russians will side with the Chinese. Make no mistake about it.

 

[Whitecollar]

Why are we going only for 110KN Jet Engine? Shouldn't we go for more powerful Engine in the class of 140KN? Given this Jet is only coming online next decade that too when things go well which in our case it hasn't if past is any indication, our import dalals in IAF would be ready why they don't want this Jet and instead prefer some shit from Russia. Barring in few areas like Missile Defense, Nuclear submarine technology Russian MIC is going down along with their economy. They will be more than happy to give kickbacks to our dalals to lobby for shitty Russian jets you know like the one we paid for in the last decade. Su-57, we paid $300 million for it's development and that is their work after syphoning most of the money. And they asked us to fund to the tune of $30 billion for total development of the Jet in return for 100 Su-57 without any transfer of technology. These Russian corrupt bastards will milk you to the bone.

There is nothing more I like than decoupling from Russia. Sooner it happens better for us. I hope by 2040 we won't be depending on Russians who are already in Chinese lap to supply crucial weapons for us. Russians will side with the Chinese. Make no mistake about it.

For anything that has 120+kN thrust, we will need a heavier and bigger engine...similar to GE F110 or AL31F series. It's simply because we haven't mastered most of the vital technology related to low bypass engine components yet. And looking at current Kaveri afterburner's max wet thrust value, minimum dry thrust required for 140+kN afterburner should be 87-90kN.

So we're talking about designing a completely new engine. Then test it for TTL and MTBO and try to improve it upto Western jet engine standards. This further delays TEDBF and AMCA's final design.

In short, it's not worth going for. Unless Kaveri project gets completed and clears all trials, no future Govt will give further funds.

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Guys don't keep your hopes high about french promising us the complete tech transfer . They may give us only "know-how" ,but not " Know-why". No will give us "Know-why" , no matter how much money we throw at them.

Also note that I'm not completely against this JV. My only concern is about our workshare in hot section of the engine.

We can only expect good from this JV if and only if we utilise our own experience and knowledge that GTRE had gained from the development of Kaveri's hot section.

If we are not using our own experience and knowledge of hot section & have no workshare in its development and if we are completely dependent on french for it ,then all the hardwork and R&D we have done all these years regarding materials ,SCBs,TBCs etc will have no value at all.

So if we are going for this JV, then we must have workshare not only in Cold section ,but also in hot section too, our past experiences and knowledge regarding this must be used at all cost.We must not completely dependent on french for this.

The know-why can only come from learning engineering and starting from the ground up. People have commented a domestic test bed can help tremendously with the know-why

 

[MonaLazy]

only "know-how" ,but not " Know-why"

Do you think they'll share materials science with us? And the steps to fabricate critical parts? I guess from that know how we can run enough experiments to get to the know why. Will cut our own dev time by half or more.

heavier and bigger engine...

That's one approach certainly. But the 414 almost fits the 404. And the 414 enhanced exactly fits the 414. That's the leap we are looking at with better manufacturing techniques, down to the molecular level, 3D printing and super alloys that allow more thrust from the same size by using better materials, better design so future engines will be lighter, able to withstand higher temperatures, more powerful and consume less fuel. And same size (~4m).

 

[Kalkioftoday]

 

[Kalkioftoday]

 

[Vamsi]

Do you think they'll share materials science with us? And the steps to fabricate critical parts? I guess from that know how we can run enough experiments to get to the know why. Will cut our own dev time by half or more.

Naa...it won't cut time but it will increase the time . ISRO got only the "know-how" of RD-181 i.e SCE-200 from Ukraine, but they still working very hard to crack the "know-why". Getting "Know-why" is not an easy thing.

If we have no workshare in Hot section, we need lot of time & money to get the "Know-why" on our own.

Instead if our scientists & engineers are allowed to work alongside the French scientists for the hot section ,then they can learn from them and this will reduce the overall time.

 

[Vamsi]

View attachment 127598

This is what I have been saying all the time. French atmost will only allow us to lisence manufacture the engine in India in the name of JV & Indigenous engine. We will manufacture it like how we are doing now for AL-31F.

 

[Whitecollar]

This is what I have been saying all the time. French atmost will only allow us to lisence manufacture the engine in India in the name of JV & Indigenous engine. We will manufacture it like how we are doing now for AL-31F.

We desperately need funding and FTBs now. Nobody nothing in this world will allow a 3rd world country to succeed in low bypass turbofan tech. I hope this fact crashes inside Ninda turtle's head so hard, he himself fights for more Kaveri related funds in next fiscal year itself.

 

[THESIS THORON]

View attachment 127598

link pls

 

[Kalkioftoday]

link pls

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