Kaveri Engine

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,135
Likes
839
Country flag
I wonder what is stopping India from getting stakes in Ukraine based companies who are manufacturer of arms.Ukraine isn't in a strong position financially and we can takeover many of their firms benefitting both parties.
2 things stopping India:
A. Money: Indians love wasting most of time to negotiate a minimum price. In most of cases, sellers would run out of patience and shut down the talking.
B. The idea that Ukraine is not in a strong position. It is not true when she got a much higher offer from another buyer.
 

Flying Dagger

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
745
Likes
1,542
Country flag
2 things stopping India:
A. Money: Indians love wasting most of time to negotiate a minimum price. In most of cases, sellers would run out of patience and shut down the talking.
B. The idea that Ukraine is not in a strong position. It is not true when she got a much higher offer from another buyer.
Yes But USA won't let them go easy on this specially if it's China and co.

While Indian companies and Gov can have a go at it with USA on our side.
 

airtel

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
3,143
Likes
6,844
Country flag
While Our Babu's and Gov is busy in dilly dallying around a turbofan engine and investment in it. China has been increasingly spending and trying to grab a Ukraine based engine manufacturer and other arms manufacturing companies. While there is No Indian bid to overtake it . Reliance's Anil Ambani was trying to build up partnership with Ukraine The Rafale fiasco, media glare and the company's financial condition have stalled it.

I wonder what is stopping India from getting stakes in Ukraine based companies who are manufacturer of arms. Ukraine isn't in a strong position financially and we can takeover many of their firms benefitting both parties.

2 things stopping India:
A. Money: Indians love wasting most of time to negotiate a minimum price. In most of cases, sellers would run out of patience and shut down the talking.
B. The idea that Ukraine is not in a strong position. It is not true when she got a much higher offer from another buyer.

Ukraine may have some of the Soviet era technologies .....if China is buying them that means Chinese engines are inferior to even 40-50 years old Soviet era engines . :daru: :daru:

Indians are not even trying it because we are getting much better technologies from Western countries at much better price , we all know that Soviet engines don't work properly in hot and humid climate of India as it was designed for cold climate of Soviet Russia .

China can not get technologies from general electrics or safran so they are buying 40-50 years old Soviet era technologies at inflated price .
 
Last edited:

Flying Dagger

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
745
Likes
1,542
Country flag
Ukraine may have Soviet era technologies .....if China is buying them that means Chinese engines are inferior than that of 40-50 years old Soviet era engines .

Indians are not even trying it because we are getting much better technologies from Western countries at much better price , we all know that Soviet engines don't work properly in hot and humid climate of India as it was designed for cold climate of Soviet Russia .

China can not get technologies from general electrics or safran so they are buying 40-50 years old Soviet era technologies at inflated price .
That's not really true. Ukraine does have a lot to offer they just lack money . China have milked them pretty well in last 2 decades and specially since their breakup with Russia and Crimea issue.

Speaking strictly abt engines they have working engines and brain and know how to improve on it provided they get funds. We are still nowhere in comparison it's not like GE is transferring engine tech to us.

the engines don't work properly ? There is reduction of thrust here in India due to the climate yes. But Even European and American engines suffer that.
Plus the deal is not just buying engine but the company and know how to move on . That's how china is getting lots of work done. Several USSR scientists Ukraine reverse engineering that's how they built themselves. Truth is whole Ukraine and its industry is on sale and China is grabbing it while we don't.
 

airtel

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
3,143
Likes
6,844
Country flag
That's not really true. Ukraine does have a lot to offer they just lack money . China have milked them pretty well in last 2 decades and specially since their breakup with Russia and Crimea issue.

Speaking strictly abt engines they have working engines and brain and know how to improve on it provided they get funds. We are still nowhere in comparison it's not like GE is transferring engine tech to us.

the engines don't work properly ? There is reduction of thrust here in India due to the climate yes. But Even European and American engines suffer that.
Plus the deal is not just buying engine but the company and know how to move on . That's how china is getting lots of work done. Several USSR scientists Ukraine reverse engineering that's how they built themselves. Truth is whole Ukraine and its industry is on sale and China is grabbing it while we don't.

Chinese are trying it ...but CIA is stopping Ukraine and most probably Chinese will not get even the 40-50 years old technologies .





Soviet era engines are much inferior to Western engines , their thrust to weight ratio decreases significantly in hot and humid conditions and they also require lots of maintenance .

There are reasons why Indians are going for American engines for Tejas and all our future Jets .
Even Russians don't use Russian engines on their passenger Aircraft because option of foreign engines are available to them .

Ukrainians are even behind Russians .....so why should we spend billions of dollars on their old inferior technologies which can be invested in Indian R and D or partnership with American , German or French companies ?

And Why to buy their whole company if you just want some of the technologies ?
 

Flying Dagger

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
745
Likes
1,542
Country flag
Chinese are trying it ...but CIA is stopping Ukraine and most probably Chinese will not get even the 40-50 years old technologies .





Soviet era engines are much inferior to Western engines , their thrust to weight ratio decreases significantly in hot and humid conditions and they also require lots of maintenance .

There are reasons why Indians are going for American engines for Tejas and all our future Jets .
Even Russians don't use Russian engines on their passenger Aircraft because option of foreign engines are available to them .

Ukrainians are even behind Russians .....so why should we spend billions of dollars on their old inferior technologies which can be invested in Indian R and D or partnership with American , German or French companies ?

And Why to buy their whole company if you just want some of the technologies ?
Because you don't get the specific one unless you have a full control over the company or say a presence there. They won't part unless there is big money.

China have already got a lot USA is pretty late to the party. I am sure they'll buy it out through backchannels

From tanks to turbines aerospace they have alot and we could get the same thing we are getting from Russia at a cheaper price as a manufacturer and not just buyer.
 

airtel

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
3,143
Likes
6,844
Country flag
Because you don't get the specific one unless you have a full control over the company or say a presence there. They won't part unless there is big money.

China have already got a lot USA is pretty late to the party. I am sure they'll buy it out through backchannels

From tanks to turbines aerospace they have alot and we could get the same thing we are getting from Russia at a cheaper price as a manufacturer and not just buyer.

Even Indian financial condition is not that good ..That money which would be used to buy those old companies can be invested in the development of newer technologies .
Indian government didn't provide proper facilities and funds for kaveri engine program , they didn't provide Even the testbed and you are suggesting to buy their Soviet era companies .
 
Last edited:

Flying Dagger

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2019
Messages
745
Likes
1,542
Country flag
Even Indian financial condition is not that good ..That money which would be used to those old companies can be invested in the development of newer technologies .
Indian government didn't provide proper facilities and funds for kaveri engine program , they didn't provide Even the testbad and you are suggesting to buy their Soviet era companies .
New tech doesn't fall from sky takes time if you are going to start from scratch then a lot more time either way we hire foreign scientists and firms too it's not like only Indian scientists do the work.
Money is being spent to buy similar stuff from Russia at higher price which we can buy and own through Ukraine route exactly what china did.

I got your point Ukraine is Soviet era dud Money will be wasted to buyoff their company or work with them. So better buy from Russia and Europe and life goes on.

I don't agree with it though no point derailing or stretching the same.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,135
Likes
839
Country flag
Yes But USA won't let them go easy on this specially if it's China and co.
While Indian companies and Gov can have a go at it with USA on our side.
No, India won't get it for now because India's offer is terribly low and USA is not going to pay the gap. So current situation is: Ukraine doesn't sell their company as a whole but piece by piece to Chinese: first, key scientists; then key production equipment. If there is no new change, years later, India's offer can get its worth: empty shell.
 

airtel

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
3,143
Likes
6,844
Country flag
No, India won't get it for now because India's offer is terribly low and USA is not going to pay the gap. So current situation is: Ukraine doesn't sell their company as a whole but piece by piece to Chinese: first, key scientists; then key production equipment. If there is no new change, years later, India's offer can get its worth: empty shell.

what kind of key technologies Ukraine have and how much money china is offering to them ?
 

Yeloblu

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2011
Messages
124
Likes
694
Country flag
How is the new Japanese XF9-1 engine ?

Info on wiki looks pretty exciting


The XF9-1 is a twin-spool axial-flow afterburning turbofan with a dual redundant FADEC, consisting of a 3-stage fan, a 6-stage high-pressure compressor, an annular type combustor, a single-stage high-pressure turbine, a single-stage low-pressure turbine, an afterburner, and a convergent-divergent nozzle. The concept, slim and high-power, resulted in an approximately 30% higher thrust per unit cross-sectional area compared to the GE F110 the Mitsubishi F-2 is equipped with. To achieve this thrust level, a higher combustion temperature (1,800℃ class) and an optimized aerodynamic design were needed, which in turn required advanced material, manufacturing, cooling and fluid analysis technologies.

Each of the rotors is a blisk to contribute to weight reduction and downsizing. The combustor is equipped with patented new-type burners, Wide-angle Swirler, to facilitate stable combustion and more uniform heat distribution at the outlet. To reduce cost, the high-pressure turbine disk is manufactured by forging technique instead of powder metallurgy (PM) employed in the XF5; the material is a nickel-cobalt base superalloy, TMW-24, developed by NIMS, of which heat resistance is comparable to that of PM superalloys. Turbine blades made of a Japanese fifth generation nickel base single-crystal superalloy are friction welded to the disk to form the blisk, which is enclosed in the shroud made of ceramic matrix composites. The afterburner is a new type to eliminate the conventional annular flame holders to improve efficiency.

As another characteristic, the XF9-1 incorporates a starter generator that outputs 180 kW, meaning that a twin-engine fighter with this engine can be supplied with as much as 360 kW of electricity by engines alone.[4] The capacity is quite large compared to that of conventional fourth or fifth generation fighters such as the Boeing F-15E (76 kW), the Lockheed Martin F-22 (130 kW), and the Lockheed Martin F-35 (160 kW), allowing for next generation avionics and other high power consuming onboard devices and equipment.

In addition, a research to demonstrate thrust vectoring control and its failure handling technology is conducted from 2016 to 2020 in parallel with development of the engine. This research is aimed at achieving higher maneuverability and smaller control surfaces favorable to stealth aircraft. For the XF9-1, the XVN3-1 three-dimensional thrust vectoring nozzle is available, which can deflect thrust up to 20 degrees in all circumference directions.[7]
 

Ajax01

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
178
Likes
441
Country flag
No, India won't get it for now because India's offer is terribly low and USA is not going to pay the gap. So current situation is: Ukraine doesn't sell their company as a whole but piece by piece to Chinese: first, key scientists; then key production equipment. If there is no new change, years later, India's offer can get its worth: empty shell.
You do have a habit of making things up. Are you part of said negotiations? How do you know what India offered? If it has at all offered anything ? Chinese stake has been frozen at 40 percent. They dont control the company and likewise Ukraine can't displease US . Chinese have become bogged down become a major financial investor with little decision making. Companies dont sell scientists its not human trafficking if you control the company then you can force them to give you the tech knowhow. No company will give up its tech just to create more competitors you have to force it out thats why you need majority stake even they its subject to restrictions . China last scientist heist was Antonov engineers now that its got under US eyes its game is just about over.
 

no smoking

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
4,135
Likes
839
Country flag
You do have a habit of making things up. Are you part of said negotiations? How do you know what India offered? If it has at all offered anything?
I don't know what India offered, but I do know India tried but the other side was VERY VERY unhappy about the figures.

Companies dont sell scientists its not human trafficking if you control the company then you can force them to give you the tech knowhow. No company will give up its tech just to create more competitors you have to force it out thats why you need majority stake even they its subject to restrictions.
Generally, companies won't give up their tech. But when everyone inside the company knows there is no future for this company, what is more important to them, company's "future" or their own future?

Certainly, they are subject to restrictions, but things turn to bad, everyone becomes desperate: not only these scientists or engineers, but also those who suppose to restrict them.

China last scientist heist was Antonov engineers now that its got under US eyes its game is just about over.
You can't stop these people looking for better pay with "eyes" but money. So far, Americans haven't put their money on the table.

And you can't keep your eyes on hundreds of people in a foreign country for long time. You simply don't have resource for that.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

Articles

Top