Kaveri Engine

[abhay rajput]

No country or company will sell their cutting edge jet engine tech. RR is looking for buyer of their engines not competition.

India just have to learn to evolve from older tech until it's able to learn enough to leapfrog 1 or 2 gens.

No you are again wrong.. we can't get best which is American ones.. m88 is good but not as good as ge ones.. till now only Safran has proposed complete knows how and know why Because they are very desperate to get orders for 114 aircraft..

 

[dude00720]

Bro have you watched the presentation given by Safran in October when ninda turtle visited there.. someone was there who told me this.. know and know why .. and right now only they have stated about full tot.. Royce royal is saying for co development, in this case it's not full tot .
As far Americans they have completed denied..

If you some documentation. Kindly share. My info suggests otherwise.

No country or company will sell their cutting edge jet engine tech. RR is looking for buyer of their engines not competition.

India just have to learn to evolve from older tech until it's able to learn enough to leapfrog 1 or 2 gens.

I agree.. But, here, Rolls Royce is looking at money for development cost. It is not same as selling crown jewels. It is more of collaborating to create new crown Jewels. If they dont agree on Joint collaboration with Full ToT, we wont pay, period.

 

[abhay rajput]

If you some documentation. Kindly share. My info suggests otherwise.



I agree.. But, here, Rolls Royce is looking at money for development cost. It is not same as selling crown jewels. It is more of collaborating to create new crown Jewels. If they dont agree on Joint collaboration with Full ToT, we wont pay, period.

There is screenshot in my above reply.. please do read it you can get the whole video of event which you can't..

 

[Assassin 2.0]

KAVERI UPDATES.

Fuck yeah fuck screech

.......................

 

[dude00720]

Update from Amit_Updates channel -:
a) Kaveri rumble issue resolved
b) Screech issue is fixed
c) Wet thrust is functioning at 81KN.

Major Issue -:
Kaveri engine not able to sustain Wet thrust for longer duration.

Guys, can anyone provide comparitive data for wet thrust duration? It cant be too high. Since, It consumes huge amount of thrust in afterburning mode.

I think drdo is being short-sighted by not talking about issues. There is enough talent which can look at these problems independently. Any @gtre guys here , welcome to reply.

 

[darshan978]

Update from Amit_Updates channel -:
a) Kaveri rumble issue resolved
b) Screech issue is fixed
c) Wet thrust is functioning at 81KN.

Major Issue -:
Kaveri engine not able to sustain Wet thrust for longer duration.

Guys, can anyone provide comparitive data for wet thrust duration? It cant be too high. Since, It consumes huge amount of thrust in afterburning mode.

I think drdo is being short-sighted by not talking about issues. There is enough talent which can look at these problems independently. Any @gtre guys here , welcome to reply.

which jet needs wet thrust for 1-2 hours? continuous !!!
even GE engine will get roasted if kept afterburners on that long.

 

[Defcon 1]

Never say never.. We are talking about MMRCA 2.0 worth about US$ 20 billion, GE F-404/414 for 40x LCA Mk1, 83x Mk1A, 200x MWF, 100+x TEDBF/ORCA, 2 sqdns of AMCA US $ 40 billion, throw in the NMRCA which is another US$ 15 billion. Believe we can have American senators falling over themselves to amend their restrictive tech export rules for a pie worth US$ 75 billion+ in just fighter tech- there are so many more American platforms we are buying so total Mil trade is much much more. America is all about money, isn't it? For so much money we can press them for full ToT on F-414 and XA-100.

Trump keeps highlighting the trade imbalance as one of the irritants in the US-India relationship and wants India to buy more military hardware. We should get talking. It was US which helped China with its great leap forward in the 70s so they leapfrogged India and pretty much everyone else in the world to become the global factory. We need Uncle Sam too. Modiji are you listening?

Safran has created some tech with GE via CFM international but that was the mid 70s. We can adopt that model for cooperation with US- for now the M88 is F404 level engine tech - Kaveri is already there so what can the French offer? For the FCAS (5th gen program) they are in an engine partnership with the German MTU- they won't even own the entire engine tech for the forthcoming Franco-German adaptive cycle engine.

Similarly RR is also in the early stages of their adaptive cycle engine for the Tempest. Only GE is ready with the solution today- we may see a new breed of American fighters or even a re-engined F-35 emerge around the mid 2020's based on the XA-100.

If we add the cost of all the engines you mentioned above, it will more be more around 4 billion rather than 40 billion

 

[MonaLazy]

cost of all the engines

40 LCA Mk1, 83 Mk1A, 200 MWF, 100+ TEDBF/ORCA, 40 AMCA based on GE F-414 (2 sqns just like LCA Mk1)
40+83+200*2+100*2+40*2=803 engines + spares say 1100
over it's lifetime an airframe consumes 3-4 engines
1100*3.5=3850 engines

avg price of an engine US$ 10 million (today's prices)
total 3850*10 million (price will go up in say 2030 dollars)

 

[wraith96]

Abhay - Safran is doing blackbox of core. Not full ToT.

What does Black box of core means?

 

[Defcon 1]

40 LCA Mk1, 83 Mk1A, 200 MWF, 100+ TEDBF/ORCA, 40 AMCA based on GE F-414 (2 sqns just like LCA Mk1)
40+83+200*2+100*2+40*2=803 engines + spares say 1100
over it's lifetime an airframe consumes 3-4 engines
1100*3.5=3850 engines

avg price of an engine US$ 10 million (today's prices)
total 3850*10 million (price will go up in say 2030 dollars)

Your math is incorrect. MWF is single engine fighter, not twin engined, so it will use 200 engines, not 200*2. ORCA if even ordered, won't be beyond the 57. Taking lifetime engine number is again incorrect since Kaveri is expected to be the replacement engine. So actual number of engines will be around 800 including spares instead of 4000.

And no, engine price is not 10 million, its around 6-7 million.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Country lacks testing facilities for aircraft engines: Kota Harinarayana Published February 12, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: ENS One of the reasons for the delay in developing the indigenous Kaveri Engine for fighter aircraft is the lack of testing facilities in the country, aircraft designer and the father of Light Combat Aircraft, Kota Harinarayana, said. He was talking at the IIT-Industry conclave organised by the IIT-Alumni Centre (IIT-ACB) Bengaluru on Saturday. Kota said a facility to test each of the modules — the fan, compressor, combustor, turbine, nozzle — before validation is necessary. “With the best of the engineers, I have to go through three or four iterations.”Even for a small test one has to go to Russia or elsewhere, making it a time-consuming process and leaving very little opportunity to scale up or down, test and validate the components, he added. India does not even have a fully functional wind tunnel facility. Nor does it have a facility to simulate an engine that will work at 40,000 to 50,000 feet above ground, he pointed out. All these decades we have been talking about the engine without giving the infrastructure to do the job, he added. While the LCA was backed by a national team — with the IITs, academia, and R&D laboratories joining in, a similar system was not put in places in case of the development of the Kaveri engine, he said. Kota said that the engine was fit for use in an unmanned combat air vehicle. However, there is still a long way to go for an unmanned combat fighter aircraft and fifth generation fighter jet. Highlighting the ‘jugaad’ solution to problems in India, he said Indians do not believe in systems, processors, systems engineering and tend to lose more time. Investment Talking about the Gas Turbine Engine which is being developed by multiple defence labs and similar indigenous programmes, Kota said infrastructure needs to be created, manpower trained, technology developed and only then can one get into the project — a sequence ISRO has followed. However, if you do not invest, the project suffers. “Creating those facilities would require anywhere between Rs 7,000 to 10,000 crore,” he said

 

[samsaptaka]

Question is why is govt or HAL not setting up such test facilities ? Are they so short sighted?

 

[MonaLazy]

MWF single engine

Sure.. but that's not going to bring the engine bill down from 40 to 4 billion.

ORCA 57

you are confusing ORCA with TEDBF..

Kaveri replacement

good if & when it comes we can always subtract from the math here.. for now F-414 it is! Even for the re-engining requirements

engine price

believe it is 5-10 mill.. with the top of the line engines IAF needs it will be closer to the higher number.

 

[Defcon 1]

Sure.. but that's not going to bring the engine bill down from 40 to 4 billion.
.

Do the math. 800 engines *6 million per engine

you are confusing ORCA with TEDBF..

Right forgot that ORCA is just a concept which is not needed by any service. So it won't receive even 57 orders.

good if & when it comes we can always subtract from the math here.. for now F-414 it is! Even for the re-engining requirements

Look at your initial post. You were saying that we can use the engine orders for getting engine tech for kaveri. So if kaveri isn't going to come as replacement, then your initial premise itself falls flat. Either kaveri is coming as a replacement or we are not getting engine tech from US, choose one, you can't have both.

believe it is 5-10 mill.. with the top of the line engines IAF needs it will be closer to the higher number.

Doesn't matter what you believe. it was around 6 million per GE414 engine few years back for a small order of just 100 engine. Now as the production of the engine has continued, costs have fallen further. GE414 was costing USN less than 5 million per engine 2 years back. Not to mention, placing a bigger order will lead to lower costs. Still adjusting for inflation, I have assumed 6-7 million.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

30000000000000000000000000000

1400 degree is not enough for modern turbofan engines.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Hmmmmmmm.
Which one will be your choice?.

only because US will not transfer the technology untill we are very close to achieve that. There are numerous examples of that. Even they blackmailed us for Jaguar engine by quoting exorbitant price. When we successfully developed Nag, they came up with the offer of Javlin. When we tested AAD, they offered PAC 3. They did not offer us the gun technology of M 77. When our Baba kalyani gun is ready and offered, I am sure that they will us GUN TOT as well to get money.
We should go for European engine only. We should not allow them to Black mail us. EJ series are best engine with a very high T/W ratio and we should go for that. We should keep developing Kaveri meanwhile.

 

[MonaLazy]

Do the math. 800 engines *6 million per engine

x3.5? over life time? in my analysis the Kaveri has little to offer the Indian fighter program at this point. It is not ready today when we can fit it in new Mk1/A and tomorrow it will be too late once we get into MWF and beyond. If it matures for re-engining of Mk1/A it is a very welcome achievement- but that's about the best this program can hope to be & but it is not something the IAF can plan against since time to maturity is an unknown. Kaveri is not even meant for MWF and beyond so addresses a limited demand.

ORCA is just a concept

Just as the Mk1 was in 1985 we are early in the program!.. how many LCA derivatives can you name that are backed by HAL, announced to the world by an ex-IAF experimental test pilot at the bleeding edge of Indian fighter dev? Can't recall even one.. No smoke without fire..

Look at your initial post

Ah.. i see where i lost you.. Kaveri even when it sorts out all its reliability/endurance issues will still be a 50/80 kN engine.. not even going into the fact that it is not a drop in replacement for the F-404.. beyond the initial 123 fighters it is all F-414 - India has no known engine program for that thrust class. For AMCA we are looking at thrust beyond the F-414 also (the paper only F-414EPE).

Anyways, before indulging in this bean-counting the point i was trying to make is USN is troubled by relatively short legs (~600 nautical miles) of the F-35C with the PW F-135 and are pressing for adaptive cycle engines- posted some helpful articles in last few pages if you care.. Even the next-gen USAF/N F/A-X and F/A-XX are going to be built (~2025 onwards) around this new generation of engines.. so what i am proposing is we should show the Muricans biiiig money (MMRCA+NMMRCA+engines for domestic fighters) and ask GE for 100% ToT of adaptive cycle engines (XA100/101) & build the AMCA around it (as opposed to the GE F-414EPE class of paper engines). Beyond the raw engine thrust there are several other capabilities/systems that need to go into a 5th gen fighter engine (also posted previously) - I hope our planners don't take their eyes off that goal.

Safran, RR, pretty much anyone else is not even close in demonstrated capability for adaptive cycle engines.

Doesn't matter what you believe

Likewise.

 

[abhay rajput]

x3.5? over life time? in my analysis the Kaveri has little to offer the Indian fighter program at this point. It is not ready today when we can fit it in new Mk1/A and tomorrow it will be too late once we get into MWF and beyond. If it matures for re-engining of Mk1/A it is a very welcome achievement- but that's about the best this program can hope to be & but it is not something the IAF can plan against since time to maturity is an unknown. Kaveri is not even meant for MWF and beyond so addresses a limited demand.



Just as the Mk1 was in 1985 we are early in the program!.. how many LCA derivatives can you name that are backed by HAL, announced to the world by an ex-IAF experimental test pilot at the bleeding edge of Indian fighter dev? Can't recall even one.. No smoke without fire..



Ah.. i see where i lost you.. Kaveri even when it sorts out all its reliability/endurance issues will still be a 50/80 kN engine.. not even going into the fact that it is not a drop in replacement for the F-404.. beyond the initial 123 fighters it is all F-414 - India has no known engine program for that thrust class. For AMCA we are looking at thrust beyond the F-414 also (the paper only F-414EPE).

Anyways, before indulging in this bean-counting the point i was trying to make is USN is troubled by relatively short legs (~600 nautical miles) of the F-35C with the PW F-135 and are pressing for adaptive cycle engines- posted some helpful articles in last few pages if you care.. Even the next-gen USAF/N F/A-X and F/A-XX are going to be built (~2025 onwards) around this new generation of engines.. so what i am proposing is we should show the Muricans biiiig money (MMRCA+NMMRCA+engines for domestic fighters) and ask GE for 100% ToT of adaptive cycle engines (XA100/101) & build the AMCA around it (as opposed to the GE F-414EPE class of paper engines). Beyond the raw engine thrust there are several other capabilities/systems that need to go into a 5th gen fighter engine (also posted previously) - I hope our planners don't take their eyes off that goal.

Safran, RR, pretty much anyone else is not even close in demonstrated capability for adaptive cycle engines.



Likewise.

You are saying like USA is going to transfer full tot to us for engine's.. both m88 , Eurojet ej200 engine works pretty well.. and they are Willing to share tot which USA will not

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Saffron is developing engine for 6TH generation fighter.

 

[south block]

I have been telling just give RR /SAFRAN (since Americans have refused for tot) money.. give them as much money as they want and they will give you full tot.. we have idiots in MOD , believe me our first indigenous engine is not gonna come up until 2-3 decades...
If we can get m88 or rr(much Better) we can always increase its thrust to our requirements.. MONEY IS NOT THE PROBLEM TIME IS..

Paisey aapka daddy dega --- last I heard chetoos sellers are technological juggernaut --- what happen ?