Kaveri Engine

[Assassin 2.0]

Guys noob question, can HTFE-25 go supersonic? How is it calculated that an engine can make a Fighter go supersonic? Is it the total thrust available for the jet with any number of engines?

HAL marut had two Powerplant: 2 × Bristol Siddeley Orpheus Mk 703 turbojets, 21.6 kN (4,900 lbf) thrust each and it remained sub sonic only. Because their was no after burner in Orpheus Mk-703.( taking the weight of that jet as benchmark because it's kinda light at 6,195 kg)

Jaguar jet uses Powerplant: 2 × Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour Mk.102 afterburning turbofan engines, 22.75 kN (5,110 lbf) thrust each dry, 32.5 kN (7,300 lbf) with afterburner

Considering their old age they produce less than 22KN dry and 32KN wet.

HAL HTFE-25 can produce 25KN hence it's capable to push Jaguar jet to sub sonic speeds i guess.

Thrust to weight ratio is the basic factor behind if some jet can go super sonic or not.

 

[varun9509]

HAL marut had two Powerplant: 2 × Bristol Siddeley Orpheus Mk 703 turbojets, 21.6 kN (4,900 lbf) thrust each and it remained sub sonic only. Because their was no after burner in Orpheus Mk-703.( taking the weight of that jet as benchmark because it's kinda light at 6,195 kg)

Jaguar jet uses Powerplant: 2 × Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour Mk.102 afterburning turbofan engines, 22.75 kN (5,110 lbf) thrust each dry, 32.5 kN (7,300 lbf) with afterburner

Considering their old age they produce less than 22KN dry and 32KN wet.

HAL HTFE-25 can produce 25KN hence it's capable to push Jaguar jet to sub sonic speeds i guess.

Thrust to weight ratio is the basic factor behind if some jet can go super sonic or not.

So at the end, it depends on whether MTOW of the jet is kept under the net thrust generated by the engines.

 

[IndianHawk]

HAL marut had two Powerplant: 2 × Bristol Siddeley Orpheus Mk 703 turbojets, 21.6 kN (4,900 lbf) thrust each and it remained sub sonic only. Because their was no after burner in Orpheus Mk-703.( taking the weight of that jet as benchmark because it's kinda light at 6,195 kg)

Jaguar jet uses Powerplant: 2 × Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour Mk.102 afterburning turbofan engines, 22.75 kN (5,110 lbf) thrust each dry, 32.5 kN (7,300 lbf) with afterburner

Considering their old age they produce less than 22KN dry and 32KN wet.

HAL HTFE-25 can produce 25KN hence it's capable to push Jaguar jet to sub sonic speeds i guess.

Thrust to weight ratio is the basic factor behind if some jet can go super sonic or not.

To go into jaguar htfe 25 will need afterburner. With afterburner it can produce 40kn .

 

[G10]

So at the end, it depends on whether MTOW of the jet is kept under the net thrust generated by the engines.

As speed increase aerodynamic parameters change affecting inlet air too. Engine needs to be cleared for that too.

 

[VIP]

MNREGA is working program for 100 of millions of poor unskilled Indian families idiot & giving gas connection is not socialist scheme... people who use gas pay for it.

Do you know what a gas connection cost? 100 million UNSKILLED don't deserve any payment for some stupid work. They need to be trained, giving away money for almost no work makes them lazy and burden. Anyway, no need to derail the thread.

 

[VIP]

Nobody is spoon feeding anyone ---- MNREGA is a work program --- it's not free dole.

Work program? Do you call gadda khodna is up for payment they get? Stop this nonsense

 

[Assassin 2.0]

...........................

 

[Kchontha]

Built a high altitude flight engine testing center like gromov and buy or lease one or two test platform ..... Otherwise no points....

 

[Bleh]

Built a high altitude flight engine testing center like gromov and buy or lease one or two test platform ..... Otherwise no points....

They attach it to other multi engine aircrafts & test then in actual high-altitude.

 

[abhay rajput]

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...=socialsharebuttons&__twitter_impression=true
I don't understand why aren't we taking this deal..

 

[lcafanboy]

30000000000000000000000000000

 

[MonaLazy]

why aren't we taking this deal..

Many a slip between the cup and the lip..

The article is silent on what Safran has asked for in return.. and completely looks past their lopsided last offer of the M88 core.. DRDO was to contribute €500 million & safran €250 million (offset obligation, not from own pocket) .. this when DRDO has spent just over €240 million on the Kaveri project since March 1989..

These claims appear laughable in hindsight.

On Jul 14, 2018 as per this article -

- Initial assessments by the French company show that 25-30% more work is needed for the Kaveri engine to be combat-worthy.
- French side has proposed to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months for integration into the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

If it was only 18 months of effort, why is the Kaveri completely off consideration for the LCA, present or future variants- instead will be doing humble duty on Ghatak UCAV- a solo Indian effort, if at all.

On a different note, in complete contrast to IAF thought process of designing AMCA around 2x 75 kN (dry) / 110 kN (wet) thrust vapour ware.. The Japanese X-2 made its maiden flight on 22 April 2016 powered by 2x IHI XF5-1 with a 49 kN wet thrust.. we refuse to learn!

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Hmmmmmmm.
Which one will be your choice?.

 

[MonaLazy]

choice?.

First one to put down 49% of the investment required for this.. templating the Brahmos JV..

 

[abhay rajput]

Many a slip between the cup and the lip..

The article is silent on what Safran has asked for in return.. and completely looks past their lopsided last offer of the M88 core.. DRDO was to contribute €500 million & safran €250 million (offset obligation, not from own pocket) .. this when DRDO has spent just over €240 million on the Kaveri project since March 1989..

These claims appear laughable in hindsight.

On Jul 14, 2018 as per this article -

- Initial assessments by the French company show that 25-30% more work is needed for the Kaveri engine to be combat-worthy.
- French side has proposed to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months for integration into the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

If it was only 18 months of effort, why is the Kaveri completely off consideration for the LCA, present or future variants- instead will be doing humble duty on Ghatak UCAV- a solo Indian effort, if at all.

On a different note, in complete contrast to IAF thought process of designing AMCA around 2x 75 kN (dry) / 110 kN (wet) thrust vapour ware.. The Japanese X-2 made its maiden flight on 22 April 2016 powered by 2x IHI XF5-1 with a 49 kN wet thrust.. we refuse to learn!

They want 114 aircraft deal.. so you are thinking gtre will come up with indigenous engine ..? It will take us another 10-20 years at least.. . And for the Japanese version they already have far more better engine which can generate 107 kn dry and 147kn In afterburner...
Kaveri will take another decades and 1-2 Billion dollars.. money is not the problem but time is..

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Ready to partner India, transfer technology of jet engine: Safran


Published February 6, 2020 | By admin SOURCE: ET Leading French engine manufacturer Safran has said that it is ready to transfer the full technology for jet engines that can power next generation fighter jets and has initiated talks on the matter as it is committed to staying in India for the long term. The offer gains significance as India has embarked on an ambitious plan to develop an advanced multirole fighter jet, with the Air Force insisting that it should be powered with an indigenous engine and home developed weapon systems. In his first remarks after taking over as Safran senior executive vice president, Alexandre Ziegler, who was the French Ambassador to India till last year, said exchanges have started between the two sides for a potential partnership for the next generation jets. “The development of an indigenous fighter jet engine is a key factor for strategic autonomy. If India chooses to cooperate with France in this field, we will be delighted and honoured to make our contribution. We are ready to propose a full transfer of technology and know-how. That is the strength of our partnership,” the senior executive told ET. The French manufacturer is already a partner in major Indian space projects and helicopter engines, besides being a significant supplier of systems for the Rafale fighter jets ordered for the Air Force. “Our technologies make France one of the four countries in the world to master the complete development of a fighter jet engine. And if India needs us on this particularly strategic field, we will be there. Safran is definitely ready for a partnership with India, with the full support of the French government. Exchanges on this subject have already begun,” Ziegler said. The comments come even as France has made fresh efforts to revive plans to develop the indigenous Kaveri jet engine as part of the Rafale offsets deal, with a briefing for the project made to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh during his visit to Paris in October. As reported by ET, plans to revive the indigenous Kaveri project with the help of French technology stalled over differences in the pricing mechanism for the deal. The upgraded Kaveri engine is not being considered for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India and the jets will be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric but the Indian Air Force has mandated that the next generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has to operate on Indian engines after the first two squadrons. Engines form a major part of the cost of fighter jets, with estimates showing that for a fleet of 200 LCAs in service, the cost of engines alone would be in excess of 25 billion euros over the lifecycle of the planes. On its plans to utilise the offsets from the Rafale contract, Zeigler said Safram is committed to achieving the 50% offset clause with its Indian partners. “The Group’s purchases from Indian companies have grown considerably and now reach dozens of millions of euros each year. In addition, we have great ambitions in terms of Make in India and industrial investments in India, whether in production, like we are already doing in Bengaluru and Hyderabad, or in aeronautics MRO,” he said.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

He is claiming that Kaveri is a dead program and that is a little spectacle comment by this retried officer when we see the efforts which government is taking.

committeeheaded by VK Saraswat which is looking into the development of a new indigenous 110kN class aero gas turbine engine for India’s AdvancedMultirole CombatAircraft (AMCA) has been takingfeedback from both Private, Public and Academics in the country on ways to develop an new engine

 

[dude00720]

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...=socialsharebuttons&__twitter_impression=true
I don't understand why aren't we taking this deal..

Because we dont know what they mean by engine technology transfer. A blackbox core is not engine technology. spending a billion for that does not make sense.

He is claiming that Kaveri is a dead program and that is a little spectacle comment by this retried officer when we see the efforts which government is taking.

committeeheaded by VK Saraswat which is looking into the development of a new indigenous 110kN class aero gas turbine engine for India’s AdvancedMultirole CombatAircraft (AMCA) has been takingfeedback from both Private, Public and Academics in the country on ways to develop an new engine

We can build a twin aircraft with existing Kaveri of 130KN. That is more than enough for MWF. Old airforce guys dont seem to understand Tech. In fact, this newsByte is primarily to speak against IAF chief who wants an indigenous 110KN engine. Contradictory, some of these old airforce types are nothing more than babus in defence ministry.

 

[MonaLazy]

claiming that Kaveri is a dead program

Sadly, but that does appear to be the case as of now. Further reinforced by Air Marshal Sir-

It does seem like GTRE having failed to develop a reliable 50/80 kN (dry/wet thrust) F-404 class engine will now embark on a 75 kN/110 kN engine from scratch! Given that jet engine performance degrades in hot Indian weather they will have to develop an engine that in the west (benchmark engine OEMs) develops 85-90/120-125 kN!! That has to fit in the size of a F-414 which the initial AMCA variants will be built around! I think this program has failure written all over it.

However, I hope IAF/ADA/GTRE are not so focussed on the thrust requirements alone that they lose track of new demands placed on the fighters of the 2030's.

This, this, this and this have some details of the Tempest 6th gen program. Salients-

1. Future jet fighters will be very electricity-hungry, carrying lasers and other energy weapons, advanced sensors and avionics, and swarming technologies. This means that the old engines that were made mainly to pump out thrust aren't up to the job.

2. Existing aircraft engines generate power through a gearbox underneath the engine, which drives a generator. In addition to adding moving parts and complexity, the space required outside the engine for the gearbox and generator makes the airframe larger, which is undesirable in a stealthy platform

3. It incorporates an Embedded Electrical Starter Generator (or E2SG)- E2SG has been embedded in the core of a gas turbine engine. The electrical embedded starter-generator will save space and provide the large amount of electrical power required by future fighters.

4. Heat management.

5. Team Tempest partners include BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA, Leonardo, Defense Equipment & Support, and RAF Rapid Capability Office - do we have a similar consortium?

6. Tempest initial budget US$2.6 billion- AMCA was sanctioned US$14 million for feasibility study and another US$60 million for detailed design phase - the Defence Ministry is looking for about US$1.1 billion over 10 years to make 2 TDs and 7 prototypes.

7. Currently, it is a twin-engine, delta-wing, stealth fighter capable of carrying hypersonic missiles and controlling drone swarms. In addition it has reconfigurable, cyber-hardened communications that allow the aircraft to act as a flying command and control center.

8. The engine has been in development since 2014 (now into its 6th year) at RR which has decades of experience in jet engine manufacture. The engine program was launched BEFORE the fighter programme.

The biggest surprise? Don't see these very well established OEMs bandying around ANY power figures at all! OTOH, ADA (designer) & GTRE (developer) will start with an impossible spec sheet in hand. What gives?

 

[MonaLazy]

some of these old airforce types are nothing more than babus in defence ministry.

.. of course they should have shut up the moment LCA flew with an ADA/GTRE powered, built to specification Kaveri... Oh wait!

Think we can desist from passing derogatory remarks on senior veterans of our defence forces. The fact that he is out there in the expo when he could be chillaxing, doing yeoman service getting you inside info (affording you the opportunity of an arm chair critic) speaks of some passion.

existing Kaveri of 130KN

What in the world is this? This RSTV security scan video on kaveri from just 2 weeks ago (around 10:15 mark)-


the turbine blades at higher RPMs had a tendency of just flying away!! Good luck with your 130 KN.