Kaveri Engine

[Bhurki]

This deal will put to rest the DPSU vs Private sector debate once and for all.

And we will get to know the risk appetite of private defence sector companies in India.

This is not risk... This is stupidity...
No company will waste their resources to produce some 80 prototype/LSP engines.

This EOI is made to fool people into thinking that private companies are being asked to compete, and that is misleading.

 

[IndianHawk]

Ok. But sure about this part?... I'd read that on old post by DFI memver citing dorect ADA contacts #70. And as of recently;
France offers to kickstart Kaveri engine for Tejas

If we buy 100 + rafale may be France will genuinely help with Kaveri but I'm doubtful as it creates competition for French engines in future.

But since India has chosen f414 for all future programs mwf /tedbf/amca french are already loosing on engine sell so they might offer engine tech in exchange for 114 rafale + more scorpions !

But I think french will try to rope India in fcas/ngf fighter and promise to help with amca and 110kn engine in exchange.

Let's see how this pans out. Ultimately we can't rely on anyone so our own efforts must continue with more vigor.

 

[ezsasa]

This is not risk... This is stupidity...
No company will waste their resources to produce some 80 prototype/LSP engines.

This EOI is made to fool people into thinking that private companies are being asked to compete, and that is misleading.

But that’s a standard feature of all RFI issued by MoD.

If companies wanted govt funded hand holding, they should have asked for it atleast 4 years back.

One project where govt was willing to fund private companies was WhAP, private companies fought with each other and cancelled the entire initiative.

Govt said screw you, and dropped the govt funding concept as a whole. It’s not govt fault always.

More over if funding hand holding is what they want, MoD is not the only Mai baap of everything, even ministry of finance or RBI can create some soft loan instruments with low interest long term funding too..

Creative thinking is the need of the hour, not blame game.

 

[IndianHawk]

Somebody was as asking for Kaveri temp data.
Here is data . Credit to BRF maitya.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Timeline for manufacturing of 50kN non-afterburner variant of Kaveri Engine for Ghatak UCAV.

- Upto 5 Kaveri dry-thrust (DT) engines will be manufactured by or before 2024 for first TDs/series of Ghatak. (1-2 engines per year).

- Upto 15 more Kaveri DT engines will be made from 2024-28. (~4 engines per year).

- Upto 60 more Kaveri DT engines will be made from 2028-32. (~15 engines per year).

Totalling upto 80 Kaveri engines in 12 years for our Ghatak UCAVs.

Ghatak will ofcourse stand up to its name and incorporate many cutting-edge techs from AMCA.

....................................

 

[Assassin 2.0]

committee headed by VK Saraswat which is looking into the development of a new indigenous 110kN class aero gas turbine engine for India’s Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has been taking feedback from both Private, Public and Academics in the country on ways to develop an new engine which doesn’t exist anywhere in the world. Among many feedbacks from all sector, a majority of them are urging to build a consortium company with many key stakeholders who should be in charge of developing the new engine locally instead of an international collaboration with a foreign Aero-Engine maker if we aim to be import free and less dependent on foreign engine manufactures in the future. Midhani & Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), Hyderabad will be in charge of providing the material and components to make the engine and Kalyani Group headed by Baba Kalyani reportedly told the committee members that if countries decide we won’t import them, then we can build it and offered to be part of the consortium. IIT Madras will be an academic research partner and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bengaluru along with ISRO will be the lead designer partner for the new engine development if the indigenous route is cleared by the committee. Many DRDO labs along with many private companies are also in the fray to be part of the new consortium if the Government clears such proposals. Industrial sources close to idrw.org has said that “The standard large engine development cycle is roughly 20 years”, a consortium will have less than 15 years to build and test and certify an engine for AMCA Mk2 which goes into production in 2035″. ” We have spent nearly 2000 crores on Kaveri engine which might look huge but it is not even 30-40% of the developmental money spend by others on a similar class of engine elsewhere “, ” Kaveri is not a complete failure ! it has demonstrated 75kN of thrust and new 51kN Dry engine for UCAV is under development”. The biggest hurdle has per Ministry of Defence (MOD) report to the Parliament on the Kaveri engine hitting roadblock mentioned non-availability of raw material and critical components and skilled manpower. Many believe that a consortium of companies can come together to address this issue and each area of expertise of the company can chip in to hit success within the timeline. Building a new engine from scratch won’t be cheap for India and it is estimated India might have to spend nearly 4000-6000 crores for its development alone and it might be tempting to build a new engine based on the core technology of the existing engine of a foreign origin to save cost but the outflow of foreign reserves over next 40 years to be paid in royalties, license cost and procurement of OEM specified raw materials will outweigh the development cost in the long run and the country will be still stuck with partially imported engine. A committee headed by VK Saraswat is likely to submit a report by end of this year to the Government, after consulting with many companies who are part of aero-engine sector or interested in joining on the AMCA engine development plan, Indian Air Force (IAF) Top Brass has advocated locally developed engine to the committee reportedly.

 

[fire starter]

committee headed by VK Saraswat which is looking into the development of a new indigenous 110kN class aero gas turbine engine for India’s Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has been taking feedback from both Private, Public and Academics in the country on ways to develop an new engine which doesn’t exist anywhere in the world. Among many feedbacks from all sector, a majority of them are urging to build a consortium company with many key stakeholders who should be in charge of developing the new engine locally instead of an international collaboration with a foreign Aero-Engine maker if we aim to be import free and less dependent on foreign engine manufactures in the future. Midhani & Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), Hyderabad will be in charge of providing the material and components to make the engine and Kalyani Group headed by Baba Kalyani reportedly told the committee members that if countries decide we won’t import them, then we can build it and offered to be part of the consortium. IIT Madras will be an academic research partner and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bengaluru along with ISRO will be the lead designer partner for the new engine development if the indigenous route is cleared by the committee. Many DRDO labs along with many private companies are also in the fray to be part of the new consortium if the Government clears such proposals. Industrial sources close to idrw.org has said that “The standard large engine development cycle is roughly 20 years”, a consortium will have less than 15 years to build and test and certify an engine for AMCA Mk2 which goes into production in 2035″. ” We have spent nearly 2000 crores on Kaveri engine which might look huge but it is not even 30-40% of the developmental money spend by others on a similar class of engine elsewhere “, ” Kaveri is not a complete failure ! it has demonstrated 75kN of thrust and new 51kN Dry engine for UCAV is under development”. The biggest hurdle has per Ministry of Defence (MOD) report to the Parliament on the Kaveri engine hitting roadblock mentioned non-availability of raw material and critical components and skilled manpower. Many believe that a consortium of companies can come together to address this issue and each area of expertise of the company can chip in to hit success within the timeline. Building a new engine from scratch won’t be cheap for India and it is estimated India might have to spend nearly 4000-6000 crores for its development alone and it might be tempting to build a new engine based on the core technology of the existing engine of a foreign origin to save cost but the outflow of foreign reserves over next 40 years to be paid in royalties, license cost and procurement of OEM specified raw materials will outweigh the development cost in the long run and the country will be still stuck with partially imported engine. A committee headed by VK Saraswat is likely to submit a report by end of this year to the Government, after consulting with many companies who are part of aero-engine sector or interested in joining on the AMCA engine development plan, Indian Air Force (IAF) Top Brass has advocated locally developed engine to the committee reportedly.

are betichod pichle 30 saal se yahi sun raha hu kuch nahi hone waala phir se chutiya kaat rahe hai . mere ek baat samaj nahi aati ki hum log kyo itne bade gandu hai aur bina dimag ke baate aur kam karte hai. majak bana ke rakh diya hai MC

 

[HariPrasad-1]

52kN couldn't have been "enough"... Wasn’t the targeted thrust 60-90kN?

We seeking help from Safran for what! Their own M-88 is 50-75kN, no better than Kaveri (ignorin technical & teething issues).

The difference is that Safran engine was designed for that power. Kaveri fell shorter to its designed power output.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

are betichod pichle 30 saal se yahi sun raha hu kuch nahi hone waala phir se chutiya kaat rahe hai . mere ek baat samaj nahi aati ki hum log kyo itne bade gandu hai aur bina dimag ke baate aur kam karte hai. majak bana ke rakh diya hai MC

Even technological advanced countries take 20 years to fully develop a new engine with a new core and testing time is also their. India in past when we started this project didn't had any infrastructure to build such type of engines.

 

[fire starter]

Even technological advanced countries take 20 years to fully develop a new engine with a new core and testing time is also their. India in past when we started this project didn't had any infrastructure to build such type of engines.

6000 crore for 20 yrs is not bad if we succeed in doing so then it will be a record.

 

[Bhurki]

6000 crore for 20 yrs is not bad if we succeed in doing so then it will be a record.

In 20 years, metallurgy and engine tech would've moved to a higher level.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

In 20 years, metallurgy and engine tech would've moved to a higher level.

Japanese created IHI Corporation XF5 which is under development from 1970s they are now pushing that engine is a competitive to Pratt & Whitney F135.

when Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin experimental aircraft took to air for the first time and was to be used as a template for testing many of the technologies required for the F-3 program but it was mocked by many western and Chinese defense analysts after it was found that Japan used an under powered IHI developed XF5-1 low-bypass turbofan engines which barely generated 49kN of Wet thrust but many were in for shock and surprise when IHI showcased fully developed XF-9-1 prototypes in 2017 and started testing them in 2018. XF-9-1 prototype already has gone through Maximum verification thrust tests in 2018 and already demonstrated 108kN of dry and 150kN of wet thrust, IHI team which begin its research in the development of low-by pass turbofan engine in ’70s, started from developing a basic F3-IHI-30 engines (16.32 kN ) to power its T-4 Subsonic trainer and then later moved to develop XF3-400 engine (30kN) and later developed XF5-1engines (49kN) which became base to develop F-7 (60kN) engine which is used to power Kawasaki P-1 maritime patrol aircraft but Japan was still not able to develop any engine beyond 60kN Wet Thrust which was one of the reasons many mocked them when they announced to develop 5th.

Once you have developed a stable core then you can always work to enhance it just in the same way how Russians updated Al-41 with multiple pass blades were as Al-31 was with single pass blades.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

...............................

 

[IndianHawk]

committee headed by VK Saraswat which is looking into the development of a new indigenous 110kN class aero gas turbine engine for India’s Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA) has been taking feedback from both Private, Public and Academics in the country on ways to develop an new engine which doesn’t exist anywhere in the world. Among many feedbacks from all sector, a majority of them are urging to build a consortium company with many key stakeholders who should be in charge of developing the new engine locally instead of an international collaboration with a foreign Aero-Engine maker if we aim to be import free and less dependent on foreign engine manufactures in the future. Midhani & Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), Hyderabad will be in charge of providing the material and components to make the engine and Kalyani Group headed by Baba Kalyani reportedly told the committee members that if countries decide we won’t import them, then we can build it and offered to be part of the consortium. IIT Madras will be an academic research partner and Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bengaluru along with ISRO will be the lead designer partner for the new engine development if the indigenous route is cleared by the committee. Many DRDO labs along with many private companies are also in the fray to be part of the new consortium if the Government clears such proposals. Industrial sources close to idrw.org has said that “The standard large engine development cycle is roughly 20 years”, a consortium will have less than 15 years to build and test and certify an engine for AMCA Mk2 which goes into production in 2035″. ” We have spent nearly 2000 crores on Kaveri engine which might look huge but it is not even 30-40% of the developmental money spend by others on a similar class of engine elsewhere “, ” Kaveri is not a complete failure ! it has demonstrated 75kN of thrust and new 51kN Dry engine for UCAV is under development”. The biggest hurdle has per Ministry of Defence (MOD) report to the Parliament on the Kaveri engine hitting roadblock mentioned non-availability of raw material and critical components and skilled manpower. Many believe that a consortium of companies can come together to address this issue and each area of expertise of the company can chip in to hit success within the timeline. Building a new engine from scratch won’t be cheap for India and it is estimated India might have to spend nearly 4000-6000 crores for its development alone and it might be tempting to build a new engine based on the core technology of the existing engine of a foreign origin to save cost but the outflow of foreign reserves over next 40 years to be paid in royalties, license cost and procurement of OEM specified raw materials will outweigh the development cost in the long run and the country will be still stuck with partially imported engine. A committee headed by VK Saraswat is likely to submit a report by end of this year to the Government, after consulting with many companies who are part of aero-engine sector or interested in joining on the AMCA engine development plan, Indian Air Force (IAF) Top Brass has advocated locally developed engine to the committee reportedly.

Good thing is that they are being honest about challenges and budget for. It will take a billion or more no doubt .

Another good thing is bringing private sector in which will be faster and far more efficient than gtre.

Our knowledge base has improved a lot. Kaveri achieved dry thrust target and reached 76-78KN wet thrust. HAL has made strides on HTFE 25 , DRDO has manik , Kalyani was developing small engine as well and tata / l&t supply parts for Boeing , Lockheed etc.

With a consortium we can do it.

The only thing missing is declaring it national mission and put under PMO directly. Open the funds 1-2 Billion USD whatever it takes ( still cheaper than foreign royalty overtime) and set 12-15 years for it . It should be here by the time of amca mk2 (2035-40) .

 

[lcafanboy]

Thread please....

 

[dude00720]

Somebody was as asking for Kaveri temp data.
Here is data . Credit to BRF maitya.
View attachment 41759

Thanks for this chart. One question,

What kind of operating temperature are talking of inside the engine during wet thrust? 1600 degrees C or higher?

 

[IndianHawk]

Thanks for this chart. One question,

What kind of operating temperature are talking of inside the engine during wet thrust? 1600 degrees C or higher?

This tidbit should help.
For comparisons, Kabini currently is at 1,455deg C (or 1,728deg K) TeT level - while M88 is at 1,850 K (1,580 °C) - so ~125deg improvement is required.

This is also from maitya BRF.
We are probably targeting for 1500-1550°c that should do for present requirements.

 

[dude00720]

This tidbit should help.
For comparisons, Kabini currently is at 1,455deg C (or 1,728deg K) TeT level - while M88 is at 1,850 K (1,580 °C) - so ~125deg improvement is required.

This is also from maitya BRF.
We are probably targeting for 1500-1550°c that should do for present requirements.

So, M88 is just 1,580 °C only. That sounds interesting. Basically, we need to perfect our Superalloy creation process. It is a very complex arrangement. Not just the alloy, but, the carbon coating also. The carbon coating allows less disintegration, if done right, at very high temperatures.

 

[Armand2REP]

So, M88 is just 1,580 °C only. That sounds interesting. Basically, we need to perfect our Superalloy creation process. It is a very complex arrangement. Not just the alloy, but, the carbon coating also. The carbon coating allows less disintegration, if done right, at very high temperatures.

Didn't the Kabini core suffer cracks at less than 1455°C? Is that not called jumping the gun?

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Thread please....

Do you want to start a thread based solely on a picture!