Kaveri Engine

[SRao]

Why cant we go only for twin-engine fighter aircraft? Why do we need single-engine fighters? In such a scenario, doesn't using 2 of current Kaveri engines suffice? By doing so, we can save time/money in buying expensive planes, and in parallel, do R&D for better engines, etc.

 

[dude00720]

Why cant we go only for twin-engine fighter aircraft? Why do we need single-engine fighters? In such a scenario, doesn't using 2 of current Kaveri engines suffice? By doing so, we can save time/money in buying expensive planes, and in parallel, do R&D for better engines, etc.

I cant be sure, but, i think twin engine will lack stealth.

 

[dude00720]

Didn't the Kabini core suffer cracks at less than 1455°C? Is that not called jumping the gun?

I've no direct info. Right now, just collecting data. But, no doubt that thermal barrier coating is a weak point, since it is a very exact process. A coating of about 1-200 µm can reduce the temperature at the superalloy surface by up to 200K, which can be quite useful.

 

[captscooby81]

Nope he is asking to check that twitter message thread

Do you want to start a thread based solely on a picture!

 

[IndianHawk]

So, M88 is just 1,580 °C only. That sounds interesting. Basically, we need to perfect our Superalloy creation process. It is a very complex arrangement. Not just the alloy, but, the carbon coating also. The carbon coating allows less disintegration, if done right, at very high temperatures.

There are many layers. We have latest coating tech with us now. Check my previous posts on this thread . Lots of info.

 

[IndianHawk]

Why cant we go only for twin-engine fighter aircraft? Why do we need single-engine fighters? In such a scenario, doesn't using 2 of current Kaveri engines suffice? By doing so, we can save time/money in buying expensive planes, and in parallel, do R&D for better engines, etc.

Twin engine plane are much more maintenance intensive than single engine.

Also Kaveri has issue of screech to solve before it's flight certified.

Theoretically we can make rafale like twin engine fighter with what Kaveri can produce (76 kn wet). That is tedbf and orca but with f414 they can have much more thrust at disposal than Rafale and that is necessary for future upgrades / full potential of design.

We really need a 110-120 KN class engine at f414 size anything else is not efficient for our proposed fighter design .

 

[SRao]

Twin engine plane are much more maintenance intensive than single engine.

Also Kaveri has issue of screech to solve before it's flight certified.

Theoretically we can make rafale like twin engine fighter with what Kaveri can produce (76 kn wet). That is tedbf and orca but with f414 they can have much more thrust at disposal than Rafale and that is necessary for future upgrades / full potential of design.

We really need a 110-120 KN class engine at f414 size anything else is not efficient for our proposed fighter design .

20 years from now there will be other technological advances that we cannot imagine. I think we should build our own fighter planes with 2 Kaveri engines. If Rafale can be good enough for the next 20 years, a twin-Kaveri Tejas will also be fine, imo. We constantly keep changing the goal post, without having anything in hand- buying expensive foreign jets, and be dependent on them forever. Stop thinking of the future upgrades for 10 years, and let kaveri/Tejas solidify.

 

[dude00720]

Twin engine plane are much more maintenance intensive than single engine.

Also Kaveri has issue of screech to solve before it's flight certified.

Theoretically we can make rafale like twin engine fighter with what Kaveri can produce (76 kn wet). That is tedbf and orca but with f414 they can have much more thrust at disposal than Rafale and that is necessary for future upgrades / full potential of design.

We really need a 110-120 KN class engine at f414 size anything else is not efficient for our proposed fighter design .

If we can buy a Rafale today which will last us 20 years, then, there is no reason not to use a Twin kaveri(assuming screech is solved) for a Rafale equivalent. This might hurt us in longer run.

 

[IndianHawk]

20 years from now there will be other technological advances that we cannot imagine. I think we should build our own fighter planes with 2 Kaveri engines. If Rafale can be good enough for the next 20 years, a twin-Kaveri Tejas will also be fine, imo. We constantly keep changing the goal post, without having anything in hand- buying expensive foreign jets, and be dependent on them forever. Stop thinking of the future upgrades for 10 years, and let kaveri/Tejas solidify.

If we can buy a Rafale today which will last us 20 years, then, there is no reason not to use a Twin kaveri(assuming screech is solved) for a Rafale equivalent. This might hurt us in longer run.

All the twin engine plane that we have in planning will all come in 2030s.

Amca MK2 and twdbf/ orca all will be ready only by early 2030s and we will try to build a desi 110kn engine by then so now that's the plan. If our desi engine doesn't work then we will go for some derivative engine either ej2xx or safran derivatives , but even that derived engine will be build in India for safeguard from sanction. No more outright foreign engine after mwf , amca mk1 2 squadron.

 

[no smoking]

Why cant we go only for twin-engine fighter aircraft? Why do we need single-engine fighters?

Because LCA was supposed to replace Mig-21 (a single engine jet) from the beginning. At the time, there was no need of a pure twin-engine figher fleet to fight Pakistan. Nobody could foresee the rise of China.

In such a scenario, doesn't using 2 of current Kaveri engines suffice? By doing so, we can save time/money in buying expensive planes, and in parallel, do R&D for better engines, etc.

Kaveri is overwieghted and underpower as a twin engine.

 

[Veiled V I P E R 2]

A good analysis on Kaveri Engine program.

 

[dude00720]

A good analysis on Kaveri Engine program.

Found this interview extremely devoid of the history of the facts. For example, the 71KN target for wet thrust was not decided in 1985, but, in early-2000s.

This interview never mentions the constant changing of aircraft requirements.

 

[dude00720]

Kaveri is overwieghted and underpower as a twin engine.

The Mathematics is clear. It cant be underpowered since, Kaveri has achived ~ 50KN. 50KN x 2 = 100 KN. Way more than enough for a twin fighter. incidentally, kaveri achieved 69KN in wet thrust also. Over weight can be debated.

 

[no smoking]

The Mathematics is clear. It cant be underpowered since, Kaveri has achived ~ 50KN. 50KN x 2 = 100 KN. Way more than enough for a twin fighter. incidentally, kaveri achieved 69KN in wet thrust also. Over weight can be debated.

Well, you forget that currently tejas is 6560 kg empty weight with F404 (1035kg). By replacing F404 with 2xKaveri (1236kg), the empty weight will be 7997kg already without considering the increased size and enhanced structure. If we use Rafael as an example, replacing the 2xM-88 engines with Kaveri, the empty weight will be 10672kg. But this new Tejas will be definitely much heavier than 10672kg as the engine is much bigger and heavier than French engine and consum much more fuel.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

A good analysis on Kaveri Engine program.

A lil disappointed from this episode.
Because they don't take facts right
Americans have rejected any kind of TOT under DTTI.
Russia themselves doesn't have 3 fan 6 stages engine.
UK- they are under cloud we don't know till what level they are willing to work.
France - have proposed M-88 engine core which will be just another screw driver work like AL-31F.

We keep claiming Chinese failed to develop and etc but the level of effort they put in development of engines is great and it's pretty obvious that in 15-20 year's they will be able to achieve a robust engine.
Till now their are more than 300-350 WS-10 powered jets. The level of manufacturing capabilities required for that is great.

Some claim collaborate with Japanese etc totally baseless.

Totally disappointed from this episode. Till the time we don't develop or learn or get magical stick to develop jet engine.

Second issue is foreign OEM will never share technology with Indian private firms and i seriously doubt work of HAL they claim big things even if we get M-88 core will HAL ever be able to indigenous it?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

This is what GTRE said in 2015--............

 

[IndianHawk]

Because LCA was supposed to replace Mig-21 (a single engine jet) from the beginning. At the time, there was no need of a pure twin-engine figher fleet to fight Pakistan. Nobody could foresee the rise of China.

What a stupid comment? What has Chinese rise changed? Still the most capable fighter Pakistan has is American gifted f16.

Jf17 can be swatted down by lca itself.

 

[IndianHawk]

Well, you forget that currently tejas is 6560 kg empty weight with F404 (1035kg). By replacing F404 with 2xKaveri (1236kg), the empty weight will be 7997kg already without considering the increased size and enhanced structure. If we use Rafael as an example, replacing the 2xM-88 engines with Kaveri, the empty weight will be 10672kg. But this new Tejas will be definitely much heavier than 10672kg as the engine is much bigger and heavier than French engine and consum much more fuel.

Another stupid comment. twin engine lca will have a different designs and different empty weight all together. Stop applying Chinese math for god's sake !

 

[IndianHawk]

The Mathematics is clear. It cant be underpowered since, Kaveri has achived ~ 50KN. 50KN x 2 = 100 KN. Way more than enough for a twin fighter. incidentally, kaveri achieved 69KN in wet thrust also. Over weight can be debated.

Kaveri has developed wet thrust of 76 KN.

 

[smestarz]

Because LCA was supposed to replace Mig-21 (a single engine jet) from the beginning. At the time, there was no need of a pure twin-engine figher fleet to fight Pakistan. Nobody could foresee the rise of China.

Its true that Tejas was built to replace MiG-21, but by then and now there are big changes also we were limited by our vision also. MiG-21 were good, but one of the best interceptors of the world was F-5 Tiger, these were reliable due to Twin engines.They were developed with ease of repair and maintenance in Mind. The engines used in F-5 were two small engines these were eventually replaced by F-16, but many countries still fly F-5.
I would go for twin engine planes because of better reliability.
IAF also failed to see MiG-29 as an MRCA and was used only as air superiority plane, now we are using it as MRCA.

Kaveri is overwieghted and underpower as a twin engine.

Kaveri is overweight and underpowered, but when we use planes with this, we are getting numbers, and at the same time the engine development is continued. As of now, we are not using Kaveri, thus its looking as an entire loss, but where as its a development that are even considering to utilise.