Kaveri Engine

Bhurki

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I was saying if USA stops f414 to india it will create distrust. We won't be buying anymore USA equipment as we won't be able to trust USA with delivery and support.

USA will lose arms sell to Russia/ France etc .
Not really..
Consider this scenario...
India makes 83 tejas with f404 or Mwf with f414 and then throws tantrum or other tactic to acquire engine tech.
Who do you think will suffer??
Or are you thinking of strapping Al31 to the tejas fuselage?! :D
 

IndianHawk

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Not really..
Consider this scenario...
India makes 83 tejas with f404 or Mwf with f414 and then throws tantrum or other tactic to acquire engine tech.
Who do you think will suffer??
Or are you thinking of strapping Al31 to the tejas fuselage?! :D
Who said India won't suffer but that will be short term suffering we'll find other engines. Relationship between USA and India once destroyed won't recover for decades.

China India and USA are top 3 economies of world . USA can't alienate 2 of them and not suffer itself. If USA wants to take on China it will have to compromise with India .
 

Assassin 2.0

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CSIR, DRDO to join hands to develop Saras engine

The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) will collaborate with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to produce an indigenous engine for the Saras light passenger aircraft being developed by it. “We will be taking up the project jointly. Designing and developing an aero-engine is a highly complex task,” Dr Shekhar C Mande, Director General, CSIR, said during his visit here. “Apart from the power plants, all major systems of the Saras are indigenous,” he added. The DRDO has been developing the Kaveri engine that was initially meant for the Light Combat Aircraft since the mid-80s, but has not been successful. While some technologies and components were validated, there were problems with some. While various types of aero-engines have been produced under licence in India, an indigenous engine has not been developed. According to some experts, developing a turboprop for a transport aircraft is less complex than developing a jet engine for a fighter. The prototype version of the Saras, being developed by the CSIR’s National Aeronautical Laboratory (NAL), is powered by two Canadian Pratt and Whitney PT6A turboprop engines, that are not only mounted on the rear of the fuselage instead of the wings, but also face rearwards. “The 14-passenger Saras plane, which is undergoing flight trials, will also have the capability to taxi in reverse, a feature that is not very common in aircraft. In the IAF’s inventory, the American C-17 strategic freighter and the German Dornier Do-228 have this feature. Taxiiing in reverse require the jet blast from the engines to be directed forwards but it has technical, environmental and safety concerns when operating in the vicinity of aerodrome terminals or structures. The NAL would be conducting 20 test flights of the Saras before the design is frozen and production would be undertaken by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The IAF has committed to procure 15 aircraft. Dr Mande, who is a member of Gaganyaan National Advisory Council, the steering body for ISRO’s manned space mission, said the NAL was also deeply involved in testing an devaluating many of the launch vehicle’s components.
 

Shredder

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:india::india:
:india2:

(it's not fuckin DEAD)
This what a capable government can do.
I'm sure we will be able to build it.

If this mission is personally given to shri Dr V.K Saraswat then boy's something big can come forward.
The learning curve is extremely steep (esp. extremely tight tolerances, metallurgy and material sciences), but a nation such as ours has to develop this tech ingenuously, we have no choice but to go through the hard path.

Btw, can anyone give any updates on the K9, K10 engines?
 

IndianHawk

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CSIR, DRDO to join hands to develop Saras engine

The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) will collaborate with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to produce an indigenous engine for the Saras light passenger aircraft being developed by it. “We will be taking up the project jointly. Designing and developing an aero-engine is a highly complex task,” Dr Shekhar C Mande, Director General, CSIR, said during his visit here. “Apart from the power plants, all major systems of the Saras are indigenous,” he added. The DRDO has been developing the Kaveri engine that was initially meant for the Light Combat Aircraft since the mid-80s, but has not been successful. While some technologies and components were validated, there were problems with some. While various types of aero-engines have been produced under licence in India, an indigenous engine has not been developed. According to some experts, developing a turboprop for a transport aircraft is less complex than developing a jet engine for a fighter. The prototype version of the Saras, being developed by the CSIR’s National Aeronautical Laboratory (NAL), is powered by two Canadian Pratt and Whitney PT6A turboprop engines, that are not only mounted on the rear of the fuselage instead of the wings, but also face rearwards. “The 14-passenger Saras plane, which is undergoing flight trials, will also have the capability to taxi in reverse, a feature that is not very common in aircraft. In the IAF’s inventory, the American C-17 strategic freighter and the German Dornier Do-228 have this feature. Taxiiing in reverse require the jet blast from the engines to be directed forwards but it has technical, environmental and safety concerns when operating in the vicinity of aerodrome terminals or structures. The NAL would be conducting 20 test flights of the Saras before the design is frozen and production would be undertaken by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The IAF has committed to procure 15 aircraft. Dr Mande, who is a member of Gaganyaan National Advisory Council, the steering body for ISRO’s manned space mission, said the NAL was also deeply involved in testing an devaluating many of the launch vehicle’s components.
Should have done this earlier. It would help in learning curve to turbofan engine. Anyway better late than never.
 

IndianHawk

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The learning curve is extremely steep (esp. extremely tight tolerances, metallurgy and material sciences), but a nation such as ours has to develop this tech ingenuously, we have no choice but to go through the hard path.

Btw, can anyone give any updates on the K9, K10 engines?
Details are hard to come by. See my previous posts in this thread about various developments in field of alloys , layering etc . Which all point to sincere efforts to upgrade technology.
 

Assassin 2.0

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They are planning to build M88 here ? is that mean more Rafale orders are expected ? or Is there plan to use M88 core for Kaveri K10 ???
For now france is offering TOT for manufacturing M-88 in india if we order more rafale and it is equivalent to what we received AL-31. Airforce claimed that Kaveri with M-88 core is just a foreign made engine with made in india stamp.
Our only conquest for Kaveri should be getting technical know how for core.
 

FactsPlease

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I was saying if USA stops f414 to india it will create distrust. We won't be buying anymore USA equipment as we won't be able to trust USA with delivery and support.
USA will lose arms sell to Russia/ France etc .
How about USA stops F35 (and parts manufacturing) to Turkey? It did create distrust, and loose Turkey business to others. Does it look like USA care?
No, unless you have other leverage... ...
 

abhay rajput

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For now france is offering TOT for manufacturing M-88 in india if we order more rafale and it is equivalent to what we received AL-31. Airforce claimed that Kaveri with M-88 core is just a foreign made engine with made in india stamp.
Our only conquest for Kaveri should be getting technical know how for core.
First of all it was rejected because of three reasons first was thrust and second was that new engine would still use m88 core and third was money.. Know how and know why was included in the deal.. there is even a photo of slideshow shown to NINDATURTLE when he visited France in October. But m88 core at best can generate 105 kn of thrust and in indian environment it will be 5-10 kn thrust less.. they want a engine of 110 kn thrust which can power both MWF and amca..
 

IndianHawk

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How about USA stops F35 (and parts manufacturing) to Turkey? It did create distrust, and loose Turkey business to others. Does it look like USA care?
No, unless you have other leverage... ...
Nope we don't have any other leverage just the future defence deals worth 100s of billion dollars of which USA will be frozen out if it crosses India.

Why don't we leave that decision on USA rather than debating it on internet.
 

abhay rajput

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Nope we don't have any other leverage just the future defence deals worth 100s of billion dollars of which USA will be frozen out if it crosses India.

Why don't we leave that decision on USA rather than debating it on internet.
What about India's consumer market. What about Google, YouTube or social networking sites. Do you really think after losing China(1.3billion people) they will loose India... Our biggest weakness and strength is population itself. It's depends on how you use it...
 

IndianHawk

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First of all it was rejected because of three reasons first was thrust and second was that new engine would still use m88 core and third was money.. Know how and know why was included in the deal.. there is even a photo of slideshow shown to NINDATURTLE when he visited France in October. But m88 core at best can generate 105 kn of thrust and in indian environment it will be 5-10 kn thrust less.. they want a engine of 110 kn thrust which can power both MWF and amca..
No one is going to give us hot section tech neither France not USA nor Russia. Everyone will be ready to develop joint engine in which foreign hot section will be mated by Indian cold section and be purchased in huge numbers.

Our priorities are two fold
1. To have fully Indian engine with Indian hot section in the long run . For which there are no shortcuts.

2. A joint engine with France which is produced and serviced in India so that it's sanction proof for future. M88- Kaveri can be such engine.
 

IndianHawk

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What about India's consumer market. What about Google, YouTube or social networking sites. Do you really think after losing China(1.3billion people) they will loose India... Our biggest weakness and strength is population itself. It's depends on how you use it...
The context of that post is the premise that USA will stop supplies of ge f404/f414 engine.
I think ramifications of it will remain limited to defense deals only.
Commercial deals other co-optation won't be affected by such steps .
 

abhay rajput

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No one is going to give us hot section tech neither France not USA nor Russia. Everyone will be ready to develop joint engine in which foreign hot section will be mated by Indian cold section and be purchased in huge numbers.

Our priorities are two fold
1. To have fully Indian engine with Indian hot section in the long run . For which there are no shortcuts.

2. A joint engine with France which is produced and serviced in India so that it's sanction proof for future. M88- Kaveri can be such engine.
You are right but there are some misconceptions, I don't know but have you seen the ak203 production details, first 100000 guns will not be 100 percent indigenous but after this all the guns will be 100 percent indigenous. Similarly it's the case with k9 but although it doesn't involve full tot. Now coming to rafale I will just attach a screenshot of a presentation given to Rajnath Singh by French's about engine.
 

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