Kaveri Engine

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US-India co-development flop show forces new approach to DTTI

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 27th Oct 19

The US-India agreement on Thursday to co-develop seven cutting-edge defence systems marks the formal burial of six co-development projects announced with fanfare in 2015, but which were never concluded, or even seriously pursued.

The agreement marks the reorientation of the US-India Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) from a narrow, government-focused approach, to a new realisation that joint development projects should be piloted by defence industry on both sides, while the Pentagon and Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) oversees progress and deals with regulatory roadblocks that arise.

US Under Secretary of Defense, Ellen Lord, who visited Delhi this week to co-chair the 9thDTTI meeting with her Indian counterpart, Secretary for Defence Production Subhash Chandra, acknowledged: “In the past, there have been frustrations with progress under DTTI, but… we are making considerable progress.”

There are few takers for this, given the abandonment of projects taken up earlier (with the exception of aircraft carrier cooperation), and their replacement with seven new co-development projects on Thursday.

MoD and Pentagon officials have drawn lessons from the earlier DTTI failures. A key reason was that, in entering co-development projects, New Delhi and Washington had divergent motivations, with neither side focused on co-developing usable products.

An example is the co-development of “jet engine technology”, for which both sides constituted a joint working group (JWG) in 2015. On Thursday, Lord admitted that this had been suspended because “We could not come to an understanding of what exportable technology would be useful to the Indians. And we did run into a challenge in terms of the US export control.”

In fact, there was little that India could ever contribute to this “co-development”, with US entities already masters of aero engine technologies, while Indian scientists and technologists were at an early stage of the learning curve, struggling to develop the Kaveri jet engine. What the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) wanted was US solutions for unsolved technology challenges, such as high temperature alloys and single crystal blades for the “hot end” of the Kaveri.

Meanwhile, the American side expected that working with the DRDO would create a relationship that would lead to building US aero engines in India. US engine makers like Pratt & Whitney, or General Electric, would never part cheaply with intellectual property (IP) that had cost billions to develop over decades. Nor would Washington grant export control licences for critical engine technology. The best that could be hoped for was the transfer of manufacturing line blueprints for building engines in India. That would advantage American fighter vendors in on-going procurements of fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force and navy.

India’s MoD understood this would provide a controversial back door into India’s aircraft procurement cycle. New Delhi has also understood that US engine-makers are guided by commercial, not strategic, considerations. Although India remains a strategic partner, US defence industry, which resides in the private sector, would not hand over “hot end” technology to score a success in DTTI.

The new approach to DTTI, and the choice of products and technologies now being co-developed, recognises that the Indian partner must bring credible technological capability to the table. In announcing the co-development of “air-launched, small, unmanned airborne systems (UAS)”, Lord acknowledged: “There are some small, very innovative companies here in India that have [this] technology.”

Similarly, it was decided to co-develop a “Virtual Augmented Mixed Reality” platform for teaching aircraft maintenance because several Indian start ups have already developed VAR technology.

A second lesson has been the need for Pentagon-MoD control of DTTI to allow more space for industry-to-industry collaboration. The first step was taken on Monday, when seven American and 20 Indian defence firms attended the new “DTTI Industry Collaboration Forum”, chaired by mid-level defence bureaucrats from both sides.

Admitting that this was “helping us better understand challenges and opportunities”, Lord said this would be “formalized into an industry-to-industry framework” by the time the two defence and foreign ministers met in the “2+2 dialogue” in December in Washington.

A third lesson has been that the military, rather than the DTTI, is often the better platform for projects involving operational cooperation. The American and Indian navies are now largely driving “aircraft carrier technology cooperation” (ACTC), which involves US-India partnership in developing the next indigenous aircraft carrier. Lord specifically lauded the “high level of engagement” between them.

Fourth and finally, there is recognition of the need for the DTTI to diligently monitor projects and time-targets. The newly signed Statement of Intent specifies “the need for detailed planning and measurable progress on specific short, middle, and long-term DTTI projects that are identified in the document.”


US Under Secretary of Defense Ellen Lord admitted that the DTTI has faced criticism in the past. This was due to lack of progress on four high-profile pilot projects that were identified for co-development during President Barack Obama’s visit to India in January 2015.

Lord also revealed that a joint working group set up to collaborate on developing high-performance, aerospace jet engines has now been scrapped.

“We could not come to an understanding of what exportable (engine) technology would be useful to the Indians. And we did run into a challenge in terms of the US export control,” she admitted

( @Wisemarko some truth was also there in your words. But both government was not also in mood. To even allow export clearance.)
 
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This can be old overview of kaveri engine problems. Many things could have been fixed and rectified till now.
 

no smoking

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Russia uses 4 Fan 9HP Compression. Which is totally different from India's kaveri engine which is based on more Nato design rather than Russia.

That is very interesting. Any design is built on your industrial basis, in other words, the materials, equipment, know-how that your industrial departments have.


India industries have been working on production of Russian engines for at least 40 years, from which Indian engineers and workers have accumulated lots of experiences and knowledges of Russian tech standard, procedure, methodologies. By turning to NATO or western design, India just simply throw the majority of these away and re-start from scratch again.


Are Indian scientists really believe that the whole military industry can jump from one type of system to another overnight? Do they have any idea how much that will cost?



Russian blades have a single pass cooling design. India is working on dual pass (nato level) design. And few years back i was reading reports about kaveri engine. Some experts from india were saying Russia genuinely doesn't have the things which we seek.

Who told that Russian doesn’t have that tech? The multi passes cooling system was already applied in AL-41 engine. It is already applied to all Western/Russian engines with TW ratio over 8.


The question is why Kaveri (TW - 7.8) needs such an advanced technology. Again, this shows problems in the design work: Indian scientists have to use more advanced material/technologies to compensate the design shortcoming.


India knows metallurgy as well. And have no intentions to copy AL-31 it was just for learning purposes. India asked for its production in india to learn.

Knowing some kind of metallurgies is different from making the same kind of metallurgies by your own. Furthermore, it is another level of question of knowing how use this metal to produce a component of the same parameters with your own equipment.


The problem of India’s “Copy” is they can’t afford the huge investment in other departments.
 

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Who told that Russian doesn’t have that tech? The multi passes cooling system was already applied in AL-41 engine. It is already applied to all Western/Russian engines with TW ratio over 8.
I'm blind or something else but after all this hype for izdeliey - 30 i cannot see it flying. AL-41S is still in testing phase only.

India industries have been working on production of Russian engines for at least 40 years, from which Indian engineers and workers have accumulated lots of experiences and knowledges of Russian tech standard, procedure, methodologies. By turning to NATO or western design, India just simply throw the majority of these away and re-start from scratch again
Nop till the time you don't create your own core you are dependent on others. Even Chinese copied American 3 Fan western design rather than Russian one for there WS-10. India wanted to become self sufficient and i think they found western design better that's why they went on with that. There is no point in spending money and resources in inferior technology even if takes much more effort to create a difficult one. And especially when you are working on future ready project.

Knowing some kind of metallurgies is different from making the same kind of metallurgies by your own. Furthermore, it is another level of question of knowing how use this metal to produce a component of the same parameters with your own equipment.


The problem of India’s “Copy” is they can’t afford the huge investment in other departments.
India already paid huge money to Russians so they allow license manufacturing in india. It was done to simply learn and learn and we are doing it thinking that india doesn't know ABCD about AL-31 is a joke. India doesn't find pushing money to copy it because Russian engines are not efficient and drama which willl happen if we start copying them.
 

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Vacuum investment casting technology has been developed to produce state-of-the-art columnar grained blades and vanes for aero gas turbine engines. Enabling Technology Centre (ETC) for investment casting has been established at DMRL to produce components for Kaveri engine, Jet Fuel Starter (JFS) for Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) and Pilotless Target Aircraft Engine (PTAE) for Lakshya. These components have met stringent airworthiness requirements and have been certified. Technologies of JFS and PTAE integral castings and Kaveri aerofoil castings have been transferred to HAL, Koraput. The production of JFS castings has commenced. Using the same technology, a high pressure turbine blade for Adour engine of Jaguar has also been developed.

Applications
Components for gas turbine engines of aircraft

Salient Features
The Rotors have typical aero foils, varying in section and orientation from top (the leading edge) to bottom (the trailing edge) and from their root at the hub periphery to the free end
In Stator, similar aero foils are placed in between the inner and outer shrouds
Present Status
Technology of JFS and PTAE integral castings has been transferred to HAL, Koraput
Production of JFS casting has commenced
 

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MRL has successfully developed indigenous technologies for the production and thermo-mechanical processing of high temperature titanium alloys for aerospace applications in collaboration with MIDHANI, Hyderabad, and HAL, Bengaluru. Indigenous technologies to produce alloys such as DMR OT4-1, GTM 900, TITAN 26A and TITAN 29A have been established and several critical class-I components for Adour (Jaguar aircraft) and Kaveri aircraft engines have been realised. Isothermal and hot forging technologies have been developed to produce various high pressure rotor components such as compressor discs, blades, shafts, connector rings and blisks. Isothermal forging technology for manufacturing critical components (discs and shafts) using titanium alloys, Titan 26A and 29A, for Adour and Kaveri engines has been developed.

Titanium Alloy Air Bottles
With the right microstructure, temperature and strain rate, many alloys can be blown like glass into desired shapes just by gas or air pressure. Such effortless stretching, called Super Plastic Forming (SPF), can be applied for the manufacturing of near-net shape components with substantial cost benefits. DMRL has made significant contributions to the R&D of SPF and achieved tensile elongations as high as 1700 per cent in a titanium alloy. The process has been applied to titanium alloy (Ti-6Al-4V) gas bottles required in large numbers in aerospace systems. The bottles have been extensively tested and found acceptable as replacements for conventionally forged and machined bottles. Based on this, a production facility for manufacture of such SPF bottles has been set up at MIDHANI.
 

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DMRL has successfully developed indigenous technologies for production and thermo‐mechanical processing of high temperature Titanium alloys for aerospace applications and established isothermal forging technology for manufacturing critical components for Adour (Jaguar) engines (discs, shafts and blisks etc

Salient Features
Technology available for indigenous production of feedstock in the form of billets and bars at Midhani, Hyderabad
Technology available for fabrication of discs and shafts at DMRL, blades and rings at HAL, Bangalore
Technology transfer for indigenous production of ADOUR engine discs is under negotiation with HAL / Midhani
Applications
Gas tuebine engine compressor discs, blades, shafts and connector rings
 

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It is envisaged to indigenously develop single crystal casting technologies for HP turbine blades and vanes along with Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL). The primary aim is to deliver single crystal turbine blades and vanes with EBPVD/TBC coatings in a ‘ready to fit’ condition. This will enable high creep life turbine blades and vanes for future versions of Kaveri engines
 

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NEW FAN of kaveri.
The high maneuverability combined with stealth requirements imposes very high inlet pressure distortion at the engine inlet. The fan being the first component in a gas turbine engine is subjected to this high inlet distortion which causes severe surge margin loss. Hence there is a need for a fan development with high distortion tolerance and surge margin. The increased surge margin with higher distortion tolerance would make this standard of fan more versatile for integration with higher thrust class engines. This fan also has anti-icing system.
 

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no smoking

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I'm blind or something else but after all this hype for izdeliey - 30 i cannot see it flying.
You are blind because the new engine has been testing on Su-57 since Dec 2017.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...irst-su-57-fitted-with-new-product-30-443899/

AL-41S is still in testing phase only..
I am talking about AL41F which is already on the SU-35 exported to China.


Nop till the time you don't create your own core you are dependent on others. Even Chinese copied American 3 Fan western design rather than Russian one for there WS-10. India wanted to become self sufficient and i think they found western design better that's why they went on with that. There is no point in spending money and resources in inferior technology even if takes much more effort to create a difficult one. And especially when you are working on future ready project.
There is no superior design or inferior design, but the design that fit your target and industrial capabilities. Chinese got no option at the time, but India has.



India already paid huge money to Russians so they allow license manufacturing in india. It was done to simply learn and learn and we are doing it thinking that india doesn't know ABCD about AL-31 is a joke. India doesn't find pushing money to copy it because Russian engines are not efficient and drama which willl happen if we start copying them.
AL31 is a joke? This joke has been powering India's Su-30 fleet for over 15 years and IAF is seeking to use the upgrade version of this joke for another 20-30 years.
 

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There is no superior design or inferior design, but the design that fit your target and industrial capabilities. Chinese got no option at the time, but India has.
Certainly there is design metallurgy and tricks involved to create the best core. India worked on its own one that's how we chose to move ahead. To develop real capabilities.
Because you cannot be self dependent on engine technology till you master it on your own rather than copying that's the truth. India with assistance is asking to learn how to fix metallurgy in hot sections.
AL31 is a joke? This joke has been powering India's Su-30 fleet for over 15 years and IAF is seeking to use the upgrade version of this joke for another 20-30 years
By joke I mean if you think that we don't know abcd about AL-31 then you are joking.

Certainly india doesn't ask for Russian assistance in this engine issue why? Because they have certain limitations. India only uses Russian equipment for testing.

There is a reason why Russian jets requires so much of maintenance there availability rate is low in comparison to west. Soviets developed engines powerful engines like a beast in that time but now russkies are much behind US. (accept it or not doesn't matter)
 
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Certainly india doesn't ask for Russian assistance in this engine issue why? Because they have certain limitations. India only uses Russian equipment for testing.
This is true. Russia has its own way to overcome it. e.g Recently Russia offered India a PESA radar which is even more powerful than AESA because of its huge power and size. It works but it is not the latest technology. Similarly , Russian engines work but they are not compact and light weight. They are build on one generation old technology and that is why India which aspires to get best defense stuff look at the west or try to match western technology which is in line of India's aspiration. This is the reason why India has rejected Russian offer for either co-development or assistance in development of Aero engine. In my opinion, we should use these technologies to make an upgraded version of HTFE 25 which can be used in Jaguar to reject the exorbitant price quoted by US firm. We should make it in mission mode to get 30+ KN dry thrust and 45+ afterburner thrust.
 

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If we make a derivative of HTFE 25 with our new technology including single crystal blade and Thermal coating, we can definitely make a 30+ KN dry/45+wet thrust engine which we can use for Jaguar and avoid US black mail for engine. We should make it in mission mode.
Don't take me wrong, MBT 1500 hp engine was mad mission mode where is it? If I am not wrong it has already been 8 - 10 years. Its really a sorry state of affairs.
 

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There is a reason why Russian jets requires so much of maintenance there availability rate is low in comparison to west. Soviets developed engines powerful engines like a beast in that time but now russkies are much behind US.
This answer I think can be given by me.
Reason is THE GRAND OLD SOVIET FACTORIES who churned out turbine blades like NO TOMORROW and submarines like sausages.
Basically, they have the AMOUNT OF natural resources which they require for their engines and those engines do use materials THAT DON'T LAST AS MUCH AS western counterparts but are sufficient for certain time period and when you have full industry of RAW TO MACHINED PART fully intact and readily available (though I do know they don't have money to upgrade many factories as they want) then why invest precious money on retooling them.
Although AL-31F is very good engine JUST BY LOOKING IT IN AFTERBURNER mode I start drooling over the mechanical engineering that went in it.
India conditions are different and we require many sets of technologies like hot engine technology as well as ability of engines to develop meaningful thrust at high altitudes, thus engine is still being developed to achieve this.
we are making progress towards it but government must take some money from that reserve of 400 billion dollars and atleast give DRDO and it's partners so that these guys can atleast buy testing planes,
Man this is just like doing mental calculations but have no rough work in written to make calculations easy and perfect.
 
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no smoking

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Certainly there is design metallurgy and tricks involved to create the best core. India worked on its own one that's how we chose to move ahead. To develop real capabilities.
Because you cannot be self dependent on engine technology till you master it on your own rather than copying that's the truth. India with assistance is asking to learn how to fix metallurgy in hot sections.
So, after so many years of "working on its own", the solution Indian scientists come up is "teach me" how to fix metallurgy in hot sections? How do you call that "self dependent"?


By joke I mean if you think that we don't know abcd about AL-31 then you are joking.
No, when your own IAF asking to fly AL-31 for another 20-30 years, your words are joke.

Certainly india doesn't ask for Russian assistance in this engine issue why? Because they have certain limitations. India only uses Russian equipment for testing.
Over 200 Su-30 with AL31 in your air force, you call that "for testing"?

There is a reason why Russian jets requires so much of maintenance there availability rate is low in comparison to west. Soviets developed engines powerful engines like a beast in that time but now russkies are much behind US. (accept it or not doesn't matter)
Who tells you that. High maintenance cost has been always the feature of Russian weapons since era of Soviet. It is due to 2 reasons: 1. Soviet/Russia's material and process techs have always been inferior to western standard; 2. The WW2 experiences told Russian designers that all the weapons won't live upto their life time. A tank may only use hundredes hours before being destroyed, a jet may be shoot down already after flyed less than 100 hours. So they don't give much thought about major maintenace. They expect the weapon should have been destroyed long before that.
 

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