Kaveri Engine

Aashk

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Responding to RFI is not begging. Asking for tech that is not available for sale is begging. Get off the high horse.
I would rater say it is(ToT) as a demand, begging is when we pursued them to give their tech. And no America don't have gold egg laying chick so if you don't someone else or last we would do it by ourselves
 

Wisemarko

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I would rater say it is(ToT) as a demand, begging is when we pursued them to give their tech. And no America don't have gold egg laying chick so if you don't someone else or last we would do it by ourselves
Yes, you can and should do it yourself. No one gives you certain tech and when you develop yours, you won’t give it away either. You made a nuclear bomb on your own for gods sake- you can do this too.

But learn the process first as you can’t build a fort without foundation. You need local tier 1 and 2 suppliers to emerge to support that final product. This can happen with less pain if you license build these items first. For instance, mediocre TOT of Sukhoi has created hundreds of local suppliers for you. License building of F404 led to Volvo Aero becoming tier 1 supplier for GE. You get the gist.
 
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Bhurki

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Does anyone here thinks that this deal is related to Kaveri project and TOT of core tech? Though government isnt involved directly ,i believe they have some sort of hand in this. Remember CFM56 jet engine powers A320 family and guess what its a JV between GE and SAFRAN
No, this deal is related to making a heavy profit through back channels.
Indigo will 'buy' the aircraft now for a discount, and when they are delivered, sell them back at a profit , and then lease the same aircraft for use.. Its an accounting loophole used by all major airlines.
At this point , don't be surprised if Indigo places an order for 1000 planes in a few years..
 

Armand2REP

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Does anyone here thinks that this deal is related to Kaveri project and TOT of core tech? Though government isnt involved directly ,i believe they have some sort of hand in this. Remember CFM56 jet engine powers A320 family and guess what its a JV between GE and SAFRAN
This deal is related to 737 MAX being a death trap. Switching to LEAP engines from P&W is related to P&W reliability issues. The airlines can't afford anymore grounding issues because of US design defects.
 

no smoking

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Actually drdo rejected M-88 core deal long ago.
No, believe or not, it was India government rejected the offer as French didn't provide TOT. On the other hand, DRDO was eager to get the deal as they were facing growing pressure to finish the work.

There is nothing like begging. Most of the countries with which we are dealing we are having long term defence relationship with them and have given billions worth of deals.
Certainly, India is not begging. She just wants to buy at a very cheap price.

So we are trying to make a new deal. India already manufactured AL-31 have know how to build it but technology which we seek Russians doesn't have that.
What technology you are seeking which Russians don't have? Remember, they are the second country which is testing their 5th generation jet engine on 5th generation plane. Neither UK, nor France has the similar product.

DRDO and government is not dumb we did screwdriver giri with AL-31 fine but if we go with HAL chief statement he said we know how to build AL-31 Engine
Yes, they are right: they know how to assemble AL31 with Russian map, Russian processing tool, and Russian key raw material. If Russian's tech support stops tomorrow, Indian production will stop within months.

but unlike Chinese we respect intellectual property rights.
Well, on respecting intellectual property rights, India is as bad as Chinese if not worse. Until today, India has been staying in US's Priority Watch List for alleged violations of intellectual property rights for decade.

Here is what others think about India and China's respect for IP:
https://www.internationalpropertyrightsindex.org/country/india
https://internationalpropertyrightsindex.org/country/china
 

Indx TechStyle

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Yes, you can and should do it yourself. No one gives you certain tech and when you develop yours, you won’t give it away either. You made a nuclear bomb on your own for gods sake- you can do this too.

But learn the process first as you can’t build a fort without foundation. You need local tier 1 and 2 suppliers to emerge to support that final product. This can happen with less pain if you license build these items first. For instance, mediocre TOT of Sukhoi has created hundreds of local suppliers for you. License building of F404 led to Volvo Aero becoming tier 1 supplier for GE. You get the gist.
Things aren't that simple. It's about the damn material not design. Casting, heat treatment and preparation of material is what takes decades despite R&D. India isn't asking someone for this technology on a platter but offering money for it (and the countries who want more than money have a track record of backing from commitments). So every country who doesn't offer what it's paid for should be weeded out of India's purchase destinations gradually.
 

Wisemarko

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Defcon 1

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Responding to RFI is not begging. Asking for tech that is not available for sale is begging. Get off the high horse.
If the tech wasn't available DTTI shouldn't even have been started. India only asked for what was agreed upon.

As for LM, they have spent millions on advertisement in india, created india specific version of F16, promised to move entire f16 production to india. F16 was the only other fighter to do a flying display during Aero India 2019 besides Rafales. Anyone with a brain can see how desperate is LM to get the mrca contract. Anyways, carry on.
 

Assassin 2.0

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Washington has agreed to assist Delhi in sharing, designing and developing jet engines for aircraft—a critical technology that is exclusively owned by a handful of countries—in what is being considered a big step forward in Indo-US defence collaboration

We have decided to take our growing defence cooperation to a new level. We have agreed, in principle, to pursue co-development and co-production of specific advanced defence projects. These will help upgrade our domestic defence industry, and expand the manufacturing sector in India,” said Prime Minister Narendra Modi at the joint press conference with US President Barack Obama here on Sunday.

The big takeaway is the collaboration on jet engines, to be used in home-grown aircraft. “India and the US have agreed to explore development of jet engine in the country. It would be broader than the Kaveri programme,” said S Jaishankar, Indian Ambassador to the US.

This was what US was saying in 2k15. If they were not sure of anything then hype shouldn't be created. Now this was the things which American president was saying he himself on india visit. So any agreement of cooperation which is singed is singed because of mutual interest. Now they are leaving engine issue it's there choice. Joining and starting a dialogue was also there choice.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.de...tent/455729/us-help-india-design-develop.html
 

Assassin 2.0

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What technology you are seeking which Russians don't have? Remember, they are the second country which is testing their 5th generation jet engine on 5th generation plane. Neither UK, nor France has the similar product.
Russia uses 4 Fan 9HP Compression. Which is totally different from India's kaveri engine which is based on more Nato design rather than Russia.
Russian blades have a single pass cooling design.
India is working on dual pass (nato level) design.
And few years back i was reading reports about kaveri engine. Some experts from india were saying Russia genuinely doesn't have the things which we seek.
Yes, they are right: they know how to assemble AL31 with Russian map, Russian processing tool, and Russian key raw material. If Russian's tech support stops tomorrow, Indian production will stop within months.
India knows metallurgy as well. And have no intentions to copy AL-31 it was just for learning purposes. India asked for its production in india to learn. And Russians are supplying india nuclear submarine technology and etc so it's not the wise move to copy there technology.
 

HariPrasad-1

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DRDO did not want safranised Kaveri. Long back when DRDO put this offer of snecma core on Kaveri engine, air force had rejected it asking gtre to indigenize it.

What DRDO wanted now to help rectifying Kaveri engine. It was never about replacing snecma core into Kaveri. In fact extending core is not easy and its effort is almost like a new engine .

Anyways safran is struggling to fullfil 580 million euro offset amount. Let them figure it out if they don't want to value offset credit as cash value. It's their headache .

Although I wouldn't go far climbing that Kaveri engine is ready, there are enough news going around that we are almost there probably couple of years. They are walking the last mile. That was one of the primary reason why safran who had studied and audited Kaveri engine , has offered us co development of new engine.

I still think safran deal will be no starter as DRDO will demand tot of hot section of engine this time . The saga will run for some time till the steam goes off.
Even if we have realized crystal blade and and thermal coating of our requirement, redesigning and testing will take a long time. The engine designed for 1400*C temperature is inefficient at 1600*C. So redesigning with higher compression ratio shall b required. What we can do right now is to design the fan with composite like GE has does in recent aero engine with modular design.
 

HariPrasad-1

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BIG UPDATE.


New Delhi had sought high-powered engines under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative but US is 'unwilling' to transfer high-end technology

The development is a setback to India’s plan to create a jet engine that could power future indigenous fighter aircraft including the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, a fifth-generation aircraft. The two sides had set up a Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology and had been meeting regularly.

India has been working on the indigenous Kaveri engine but has not been able to get the requisite power. It was pinning its hopes on the “hot engine” technology, considered by the US as the crown jewel in jet engine technology.

Defence sources told ThePrint that the main problem was that the US was unwilling to transfer the high technology that was much needed for the engine programme to take off.

@Wisemarko
Our American friend and strategist any thing to say on this?

US always think that India will not be able to complete some project on their own. When we are about to finish it, they will come and offer it to us. They are not offering means we are a bit away from realizing it. once we reached closer, they will offer us the engine technology. for example PC 3.
 

Assassin 2.0

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US always think that India will not be able to complete some project on their own. When we are about to finish it, they will come and offer it to us. They are not offering means we are a bit away from realizing it. once we reached closer, they will offer us the engine technology. for example PC 3.
Because once you Crack it's no longer a exclusive secret for you. Those who are on top table will always do things to protect there dominance they wish india to never develop this thing and keep buying there stuff for billions . Once india cracks this jet engine technology it will no longer will be denied to us. And even others will come forward for Joint ventures etc.
Just like what is happening with our space programs.

But sooner or later india will be able to develop jet engine.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Because once you Crack it's no longer a exclusive secret for you. Those who are on top table will always do things to protect there dominance they wish india to never develop this thing and keep buying there stuff for billions . Once india cracks this jet engine technology it will no longer will be denied to us. And even others will come forward for Joint ventures etc.
Just like what is happening with our space programs.

But sooner or later india will be able to develop jet engine.
Realistic time frame in my opinion is 8 to 10 years.
 

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