Kaveri Engine

[Assassin 2.0]

Development of a FGFA is an extremely complex and costly affair, with the American F/A-22 Raptors and F-35 Lightning-II Joint Strike Fighters being the only fully-operational ones around the globe at present. “Both the Chinese J-20 and the Russian Sukhoi PAK-FA do not have the requisite super-cruise and stealth capabilities,” said a senior IAF officer. DRDO, in turn, rejects widespread concern the developmental saga of the “swing-role” AMCA may go the same way as the long-delayed Tejas light combat aircraft. “The design work on AMCA began in 2009. By 2014-2015, the fighter’s configuration, in tune with IAF requirements, had been worked out. But the problem was that there was no engine,” said a scientist. Consequently, the decision has now been taken to go in for two squadrons of AMCA Mark-I with the “available” General Electric-414 afterburning turbofan engine in the 98 Kilonewton thrust class. “The next five to six squadrons of AMCA Mark-II will have a more powerful 110 Kilonewton engine, which will be developed indigenously with foreign collaboration parallelly. The supercruise of Mark-I will be slightly limited due to the older engine but it will be upgraded in Mark-II,” said a source

 

[Wisemarko]

They can't go ahead without government clearance. It is against the law. Why don't you read Category XIX of the USML. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/121.1

Which law will need to apply if a company is unwilling to sell?

Can, for instance, a close ally like Australia ask for GE engine technology? yes. Will GE part with it. Absolutely not- even if US government gives green light.

These are priceless assets and closely guarded commercial secrets. They are not for sale. Blaming US government is of no use. SAFRAN is not going sell anything substantial either.

 

[Wisemarko]

It depends on wish of US government to allow sale or not india approached Israel to ask Americans to sell there THAAD system to india in 2010. And then they denied the sale of that system to india. And most of the companies were ready to sell to india.
Many of those companies previously loobyed for india when nuclear deal was getting signed.

We went on and created our very own Anti nuclear missile system. And started negotiations for s-400.

So this is one clear easy example of American government blocking sales.

FYI: THAAD is on offer to India since 2016.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

FYI: THAAD is on offer to India since 2016.

I know but till 2016 we were testing our indigenous anti nuclear missile system. Pakistan wants to match india on the basis of nukes. The more india places anti nuclear missile system the more Pakistani strategic edge decrease. (every weapon losses it's strategic edge after some time)

But when india was not having such type of systems. And was in need for one then it was denied. That was the basic reason why we went on with development of our own system.

Asat test was one more step of india in direction of creating anti N system.

 

[VSinghCalhans]

Which law will need to apply if a company is unwilling to sell?

Can, for instance, a close ally like Australia ask for GE engine technology? yes. Will GE part with it. Absolutely not- even if US government gives green light.

These are priceless assets and closely guarded commercial secrets. They are not for sale. Blaming US government is of no use. SAFRAN is not going sell anything substantial either.

The major issue with kaveri core is the rumble it produces. Hence, a foreign help on the metallurgical aspects of kabini will go a long way!

 

[Wisemarko]

The major issue with kaveri core is the rumble it produces. Hence, a foreign help on the metallurgical aspects of kabini will go a long way!

The best way is to license build the engines (Many nations have done that) and move up over time. I don’t know the details on Kaveri engine.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

The best way is to license build the engines (Many nations have done that) and move up over time. I don’t know the details on Kaveri engine.

We are building licensed AL-31 and mig engines for years.
But it cost more than importing engine's. Raw materials for AL-31 are imported from Russia.
Government asked for license production to get experience and learn.
This is one reason why su-30mki is more expensive than Russian one.

And not to forget the strategic limitations which exist in case of importing such things in case of war.

 

[Wisemarko]

But when india was not having such type of systems. And was in need for one then it was denied

I do not know when/if THAAD was denied.

 

[VSinghCalhans]

The best way is to license build the engines (Many nations have done that) and move up over time. I don’t know the details on Kaveri engine.

Which nation has license built the engine and then succeeded. No one , not even the Swedes. Only credible firms around the world are in Russia, US, UK, French

 

[Wisemarko]

We are building licensed AL-31 and mig engines for years.
But it cost more than importing engine's. Raw materials for AL-31 are imported from Russia.
Government asked for license production to get experience and learn.
This is one reason why su-30mki is more expensive than Russian one.

And not to forget the strategic limitations which exist in case of importing such things in case of war.

I am sure Indian engineers and technicians have learned a lot by assembling those engines, supplier base develops and eventually ecosystem is created to make own engine. Takes time but that’s the right way.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Which nation has license built the engine and then succeeded. No one , not even the Swedes. Only credible firms around the world are in Russia, US, UK, French

US UK france have bullet proof reliability in creating engines. They have experience of decades.
But india on the other hand is having zero experience. And is developing it's own core which itself is a difficult task to do. Chinese after copying buying ex soviet scientists companies still failed to create a bullet proof reliability engine.
So if we get one experienced player in our project then our testing time will dramatically decrease.

 

[Wisemarko]

Which nation has license built the engine and then succeeded. No one , not even the Swedes. Only credible firms around the world are in Russia, US, UK, French

What’s the definition of success? Swedes (RM-8) and Italians (LM2500) are now Tier 1 and 2 suppliers for aero engines the world over. Their national objectives do not include making aero-engines. But if they wanted, they could have IMO.

anyway.. time for hitting the hay

 

[VSinghCalhans]

What’s the definition of success? Swedes (RM-8) and Italians (LM2500) are now Tier 1 and 2 suppliers for aero engines the world over. Their national objectives do not include making aero-engines. But if they wanted, they could have IMO.

anyway.. time for hitting the hay

Still, I don't think these countries have a capability more than that of ours in building a top class engine. We've already resolved much of the problems ourselves and the ones that remain take years of research to overcome. This would be the same with swedes or Italians, if they tried to build one. Hence I say that just assembling foreign engines isn't enough, you at least need a JV so that some of critical technology gets transferred.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

What’s the definition of success? Swedes (RM-8) and Italians (LM2500) are now Tier 1 and 2 suppliers for aero engines the world over. Their national objectives do not include making aero-engines. But if they wanted, they could have IMO.

anyway.. time for hitting the hay

India's case is very different from Swedes and Italian
RM-8 is based on American engine totally. Same with LM-2500.

India can also steal and build AL-31 on it's own.
It's easy thing to do but difficult thing is creating one from the scratch.
Even Chinese will stay dependent on others till the time they don't create there own designs.

 

[Armand2REP]

Which law will need to apply if a company is unwilling to sell?

Can, for instance, a close ally like Australia ask for GE engine technology? yes. Will GE part with it. Absolutely not- even if US government gives green light.

These are priceless assets and closely guarded commercial secrets. They are not for sale. Blaming US government is of no use. SAFRAN is not going sell anything substantial either.

The law prevents them from opening negotiations without export clearance as they are controlled technologies. Buying the engine isn't the issue, getting license to make the hot section is. They are not for sale by the laws preventing their sale, not by lack of the company willing to sell them.

 

[Wisemarko]

The law prevents them from opening negotiations without export clearance as they are controlled technologies. Buying the engine isn't the issue, getting license to make the hot section is. They are not for sale by the laws preventing their sale, not by lack of the company willing to sell them.

You are overly confusing this. Law does not apply to civilian engine tech. FYI

 

[mayfair]

You are overly confusing this. Law does not apply to civilian engine tech. FYI

This is what Ellen M Lord, Undersecretary of Defense Acquisition and Sustainment had to say on the matter

“We could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to the Indians and we did run into a challenge in terms of US export controls,”

 

[Wisemarko]

This is what Ellen M Lord, Undersecretary of Defense Acquisition and Sustainment had to say on the matter

“We could not come to an understanding of what exportable technologies would be useful to the Indians and we did run into a challenge in terms of US export controls,”

Yup.. that is correct. When you go shopping make sure what you need and what is available for sale.

 

[Armand2REP]

You are overly confusing this. Law does not apply to civilian engine tech. FYI

What is civilian about an F414 engine core? The USML clearly defines what is controlled and it definitely is.

 

[mayfair]

Yup.. that is correct. When you go shopping make sure what you need and what is available for sale.

And when you propose grandiose partnership plans, make sure you have something more substantive to offer than empty words.