Kaveri Engine

[FGFAPilot1]

Its a good thing, I've come to despise our import heavy attitude. High time we leverage our own scientists and engineers, when we find out that they can't do it, then at least we'll start to address our education system.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Its a good thing, I've come to despise our import heavy attitude. High time we leverage our own scientists and engineers, when we find out that they can't do it, then at least we'll start to address our education system.

DRDO requires at least 500-900 million in spare for development of Kaveri engine.
And government needs to open it's pockets and stuff french pockets with money if they think that they cannot develop certain capabilities.
It's a technology which money cannot buy. But seeing france support they can provide this on the basis of relations which both have.

Jet engine technology is one of the biggest biggest technological marvel of this era.
Isme chindi pana mat kro.

 

[Wisemarko]

Our American friend and strategist any thing to say on this?

First of all this is not a big update and misleading as well:
There is no suspension of talks on engine technology because these talks never really started. Same with EMALS tech for Indian aircraft carriers.

“Engine technology” is not just one lump sum tech. There are thousands of technologies that go in to making an aircraft engine.

Under DTTI the joint development and production projects that have been identified were-
1. Intelligence-gathering and reconnaissance modules for C-130J Super Hercules aircraft
2. Mobile electric hybrid power sources
3. The uniform integrated protection ensemble increment-2
4. The additional areas for collaboration will include small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), lightweight small arms, and aircraft support systems.

EMALS and engine techs are ongoing discussions but requires many incremental steps as well as direct discussions with OEM. Nothing is scrapped.

There are issues here because US government does not “own” these technologies. It can only facilitate between companies of both countries. To facilitate this further, US has declared India “major defense partner”. This means that India is one of only eight countries where US defense exports are not restricted.

Now rest of the deal has to be made between US technology holding entities and Indian government. Onus is on India to not get bogged down but keep receiving all the technology it can absorb. Question is also raised about how much tech Indian companies can absorb. The DTTI is providing DRDO with some of cutting edge technologies- we will see how much of those techs are effectively used.

 

[Armand2REP]

It can only facilitate between companies of both countries.

It can do far more than that, it can block the sale for any number of reasons.

 

[Wisemarko]

It can do far more than that, it can block the sale for any number of reasons.

Any more negative thoughts/comments?

 

[Indrajit]

BIG UPDATE.


New Delhi had sought high-powered engines under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative but US is 'unwilling' to transfer high-end technology

The development is a setback to India’s plan to create a jet engine that could power future indigenous fighter aircraft including the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, a fifth-generation aircraft. The two sides had set up a Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology and had been meeting regularly.

India has been working on the indigenous Kaveri engine but has not been able to get the requisite power. It was pinning its hopes on the “hot engine” technology, considered by the US as the crown jewel in jet engine technology.

Defence sources told ThePrint that the main problem was that the US was unwilling to transfer the high technology that was much needed for the engine programme to take off.

@Wisemarko
Our American friend and strategist any thing to say on this?

I am not surprised by this but I have to wonder what people who thought that Americans (or anyone else for that matter) would part with engine technology, are smoking. The Americans don’t do it even with their closest allies.

In GE, engine technology is pretty closely guarded and the won’t even let senior GE engineers/scientists/executives from India anywhere near the facility , let alone work on it. (At least that’s what I know from someone senior in GE who has seen this). That being the case, I don’t know what our expectations are with these kind of attempts.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

IAF CHIEF TO PUSH FORWARD GROWTH OF INDIGENOUS ENGINES.


As AMCA program gains momentum in the country, not so happy with over-dependence on the imported engine for indigenous fighter jet programs, IAF Chief Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria in a recent meeting with DRDO Chief Satheesh Reddy and other senior officials of DRDO and GTRE have asked them to come up with indigenous Aero-engine for India’s 5th Generation fighter jet program informed a highly reliable industrial sources close to idrw.org. IAF Chief mentioned that both LCA-Tejas Mk1,Mk1A, and Mk2 fighter jet programs will be using Imported American engines but he pushed for indigenous Aero-engine for the AMCA program either in Joint venture with a foreign Aero-engine manufacturer or with a Public-Private sector collaboration locally in India. Engine JV offers for AMCA Program General Electric F414 EPE : ADA and DRDO are looking for an after-burning turbofan engine in the 110 kN thrust class which is commercially not available in the defense market for direct purchase yet. GE Aviation which is working on the General Electric F414 EPE for United States Navy which can generate 120 kN thrust class has said that it can offer these engines to India when it is available from 2024 onwards. DRDO has planned to use the GE-F414IN engine generating 98 kN thrust class at the Phase-I of the development of the AMCA program before switching to the more powerful engine at a later stage. GE Aviation is willing to offer local license production of the new engine but with limited TOT on core stages of the engines M88-3 Jv: French SAFRAN has offered to collaborate with DRDO to jointly develop a new engine based on their M88-3 after-burning turbofan engine developed for the Dassault Rafale fighter but talks have stalled several times due to exorbitant price quoted from the french side. F1XX : UK’s Rolls-Royce has offered to develop jointly with India a new engine based on experience it has learned from Eurojet EJ200 development. EJ2x0: EURO JET Turbo GmbH which is Jv between Rolls-Royce, Avio Aero, ITP Aero, and MTU Aero Engines, has offered to develop a more powerful Eurojet EJ200 EJ2x0 variant with the same thrust class output as that of F414 EPE for the AMCA program.

 

[Armand2REP]

IAF CHIEF TO PUSH FORWARD GROWTH OF INDIGENOUS ENGINES.

I think this signals that Safran Kaveri will be moving forward.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

I think this signals that Safran Kaveri will be moving forward.

That's the only way forward.
I was watching rajya sabha tv ( Government channel).
Many experts were claiming that this pathetic fight for cost reduction and bla bla should be removed and india should focus on development of this strategic capability.

India alone lacks several things. Like no test facilities and etc foreign collaboration is required.
Which is most probably with france.

 

[Armand2REP]

That's the only way forward.
I was watching rajya sabha tv ( Government channel).
Many experts were claiming that this pathetic fight for cost reduction and bla bla should be removed and india should focus on development of this strategic capability.

India alone lacks several things. Like no test facilities and etc foreign collaboration is required.
Which is most probably with france.

To put it simply, if you can't make a 4th gen engine by yourself you probably can't make a 5th gen engine either. Collaboration with an engine major is a forgone conclusion at that point. The only question was if it was going to be France or USA. This says it is not USA.

 

[delbruky]

Don't know why the Modi government thought it was a prudent idea to approach American and french companies with a begging bowl and hoping that they would part with their technology just like that. GE has openly said that this is the holy grail of tech development and it took them 25 years and 25 billion dollars to achieve the current success.
The french safran kaveri upgrade is now cancelled

 

[Armand2REP]

The french safran kaveri upgrade is now cancelled

It was never signed to be cancelled, it is still in negotiations. The French hand just got stronger with the American refusal.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

There are issues here because US government does not “own” these technologies. It can only facilitate between companies of both countries.

It can block as well. Companies won't have any problem if they are paid with a nice lump of money.

approach American and french companies with a begging bowl and hoping that they would part with their technology just like that.

Money & not begging bowl.

 

[Wisemarko]

It can block as well. Companies won't have any problem if they are paid with a nice lump of money.

Go ahead then, pay GE/ P&W / Honeywell and get the technology, if they agree to part with it.
US government is not blocking anything.

 

[BON PLAN]

The french safran kaveri upgrade is now cancelled

No.
French is now your sole solution.
But as with GE, P&W, RR... you have to pay the right price, and not to bargain and bargain and take all your time for no result.
A fighter engine is one of the hardest thing to developp so far. It's the result of some dozen years of R&D and practice. See the difficulties of the chinese : the are able to put men in space but are not fluent in fighter engine technology.

36 Rafale is not the right price. Maybe 114 more....

 

[Assassin 2.0]

US government is not blocking anything

It depends on wish of US government to allow sale or not india approached Israel to ask Americans to sell there THAAD system to india in 2010. And then they denied the sale of that system to india. And most of the companies were ready to sell to india.
Many of those companies previously loobyed for india when nuclear deal was getting signed.

We went on and created our very own Anti nuclear missile system. And started negotiations for s-400.

So this is one clear easy example of American government blocking sales.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

No.
French is now your sole solution.
But as with GE, P&W, RR... you have to pay the right price, and not to bargain and bargain and take all your time for no result.
A fighter engine is one of the hardest thing to developp so far. It's the result of some dozen years of R&D and practice. See the difficulties of the chinese : the are able to put men in space but are not fluent in fighter engine technology.

36 Rafale is not the right price. Maybe 114 more....

Even if one created one engine successfully we say but it still years of testing. Which will consume more and more time but if india is developing something with cooperation with some experienced player then our time in testing can be reduced by a huge margin.
Chinese engines are copied from American one's but still for years there jets were under powered throttle delays. Maintance issues.
Even Pakistanis rejected Chinese engines.

 

[Armand2REP]

Go ahead then, pay GE/ P&W / Honeywell and get the technology, if they agree to part with it.
US government is not blocking anything.

They can't go ahead without government clearance. It is against the law. Why don't you read Category XIX of the USML. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/121.1

 

[BON PLAN]

Go ahead then, pay GE/ P&W / Honeywell and get the technology, if they agree to part with it.
US government is not blocking anything.

It's one of the few jewels crown of the aerospace supremacy. US government will never be so cool.

 

[Bhurki]

Leverage chips are gone... Its either safran jv or drdo going at it alone..
Latter would probably take a decade..
While former would take a commitment to bankroll production lines..
Well, isn't this a shit show..