Kaveri Engine

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Beijing’s secretive efforts to develop military engines for its future fleet of advanced fighters.

AVIC has invested a lot and initiated tremendous effort to improve quality control throughout the engine’s production chain since 2011,” he says. “To claim the WS-10 engine today is still unreliable is, in my view, unjustified, maybe even ridiculous. The number of operational Taihangs alone says a lot and one must consider that for years no Chinese-built [Su-27 derivative], with the exception of the J-15s, uses a Russian engine anymore.”

Some sense of Beijing’s confidence in the programme came at Zhuhai in 2018, where a surprise flying display was put on by a WS-10-powered J-10B equipped with thrust vectoring control (TVC) engine. TVC added a whole new dimension to the aircraft’s manoeuvrability. The short display was reminiscent of flying displays performed by other fighters with TVC, such as the Su-35 and F-22. Trailing pink smoke, the J-10B TVC’s routine included tight vertical loops, a slow high angle of attack roll, a cobra manoeuvre and the falling leaf. It was an iconic moment in the history of indigenous Chinese fighter engines.

Rupprecht’s view on the secrecy shrouding Chinese engine development in recent years is shared by Douglas Royce, analyst of aircraft and aviation gas turbines at Forecast International. “The Chinese government isn't transparent, and as far as I can tell, the regional media outlets don't know much more than anyone else,” he says.

He adds, however, that it is of paramount importance for Beijing to master not just engine technology, but the means of production.

As long as they have to depend on Russian or stolen American/European technology to power fighter aircraft, their ability to build and maintain their fighters in operational status is under threat,” he says. “So if they are to become the military equals of outside forces, they have to be able to create engines. And engines are the real limiting factor in indigenous fighter development. There are only a few companies worldwide who have the ability to design and build an all-new, state-of-the-art engine.”

Several fighter programmes illustrate the theme of indigenous fighters with foreign engines. The Saab Gripen, Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) T-50, Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas, are all powered by a General Electric engine. KAI’s planned KFX will also be powered by the F414, as will New Delhi’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Beijing is pouring great resources into its own development work, but is not above stealing technology. It is understood that the core of the WS-10 is based on CFM International CFM56 technology that China obtained in the 1980s. In October 2018, an alleged Chinese intelligence officer was extradited to the USA to face criminal charges related to a scheme to steal trade secrets from leading US aviation companies, including GE Aviation. Court documents suggested the alleged theft targeted technology related to engine fan blades and "containment structures".

The requirement for Beijing to steal technology was highlighted as early as 2011 in a report from the Washington DC-based Institute for National Strategic Studies entitled Buy, Build, or Steal: China's Quest for Advanced Military Aviation Technologies. The report concluded that China would find it increasingly difficult to develop highly advanced aerospace technologies, and its traditional partner Russia is ever more wary of sharing technology owing to fear of intellectual property theft. This will force China to rely increasingly on espionage to obtain advanced capabilities.

Observers will also be watching Chinese firm Skyrizon’s effort to buy a majority stake in Ukrainian engine manufacturer Motor Sich, which produces turbofans and turboshafts. The potential deal is reportedly under review by the Ukrainian government, and is opposed by Washington DC. In May, the Washington Post reported that the company, which formerly relied on Russian aerospace work, sees few opportunities for its future outside of China.

Rupprecht adds that Beijing’s ultimate goal is to be completely “self-reliant in every aspect” of engine development and manufacturing.


India needs a 360 degree turn and need to make Kaveri project a national project.
Current government and current airforce looks like they are committed to indigenous development.


 
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samsaptaka

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If chinese can reverse engineer from Russian Sukhoi engines, why are we not able to or not willing to do the same ? Is it because we are still at heart goody goody nehru boys and REALLY believe in IP laws and don't want to offend big ruskie bear ? I mean what will they do ? Stop selling us their stuff, good riddance then, it will open up pvt industry here and dalals will have nowhere to go then. It beats me as to why the Govt or DRDO or HAL don't even invest any money into reverse engineering and instead try to do from scratch !
 

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If chinese can reverse engineer from Russian Sukhoi engines, why are we not able to or not willing to do the same ? Is it because we are still at heart goody goody nehru boys and REALLY believe in IP laws and don't want to offend big ruskie bear ? I mean what will they do ? Stop selling us their stuff, good riddance then, it will open up pvt industry here and dalals will have nowhere to go then. It beats me as to why the Govt or DRDO or HAL don't even invest any money into reverse engineering and instead try to do from scratch !
Best reversed engine of Chinese is not Russian one.
It's American one based onCFM56 which was having GE core inside it. Ws-10 is based on that and to some extent WS-15 too

On paper HAL chief once said we can manufacture AL-31 on our own but the thing we lack is metallurgy capabilites.

In previous years leave Russia. In 90s when we were sanctioned by US and were having there F-404 for tejas we should have tried to reverse engineer them but Idiotic sadak chap politicians never cared they focused on earning quick bucks from Defence deals.
As our dependence on American defence equipments was Low at that time.
Copying Russian engines would have it's own consequences we didn't had nuclear technology and Russia was helping us to build N subs. N power plants and tot in other things. Government didn't wanted to make them angry.

And most importantly we don't have labs we don't have test bed airforce to test the engine these things require huge investment which GOI never provided. You cannot take revered engineered technology of west to test her in west.

And now in 2019 we are close to design and work on our design so need of copying is reduced to many extent.

Kaveri is a modern engine. If government is willing to spend money she can be bought back to life by using French help
 
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Armand2REP

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Best reversed engine of Chinese is not Russian one.
It's American one based onCFM56 which was having GE core inside it. Ws-10 is based on that and to some extent WS-15 too
You can't reverse engineer commercial airline engine into afterburning turbofan. They cloned AL-31F
 

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You can't reverse engineer commercial airline engine into afterburning turbofan. They cloned AL-31F
No sir you are wrong. It's internals are not like AL-31F in fact it was build in competition against AL-31

On 29 March 1982, Aviation Week & Space Technology published an article entitled "China Waiting for CFM-56II Turbofan Exportation?" The report said that China had purchase 2 CFM-56II Turbofan engines to replace the engines on China's Trident airliners. The US Department of Defense worried about this export, because the CFM-56 was based on the core of the F101-GE-102 engine which was used in B-1B Lancer bomber. Despite this protest, the US government still authorized this export.

Some Chinese sources report the development of the Chinese WS-10 engine was based on the core engine from CFM-56. The CFM56 is a double-body, dual flow turbofan engine (operating in separated flow and multiphase flow) with 10 tons of thrust. The CFM56 family of engines has years of service with many of the world's airlines. CFM56 is a high bypass ratio turbine fan engine, under development since the early 1970s by Snecma Moteurs in France and GE in the USA. The engine's design is flexible in order to meet specific aircraft needs; it consists of four fan sizes, ranging from 60 inches to 72 inches in diameter, and six series, producing thrusts from 18,500 to 34,000 pounds.


The CFM56-2 is the family baseline, offered since 1972. It was the first high bypass ratio turbine fan engine in the 10-ton thrust class, with a 68.3 inch fan diameter. Its three sub-series supply power for the military aircraft KC-135R, C-135R, E-3, KE-3A, E-6A, and DC-8. CFM56-3 was derived from CFM56-2, tailored tomeet the needs of short- to medium-range Boeing 737-300/-400/-500, and the Trident aircraft. The fan diameter is 60 inches, the smallest in the family. Some components were improved, such as the low-noise, low-emission combustor and the elliptical spinner for improved hail/rain ingestion. It has three sub-series, -3-B1, -3B-2, and -3C-1, with thrusts varying from 18,500 to 24,000 pounds.

The General Electric F101 engine was originally developed for the Advanced Manned Strategic Aircraft program, which became the B-1 strategic bomber. Advances in compressor, combustor and turbine knowledge in the 1960s led to the F101 engine, selected for the B-1 bomber. In 1984, the U.S. Air Force selected GE's F110 engine, based on the F101 design, as one of the engines for the F-16C/D fighter aircraft. The F110 also powered F-16s worldwide as well as Japan's single-engine F-2 fighter aircraft and the U.S. Navy's F-14B/D Super Tomcat fighter. A derivative of the F110, the F118, powered the B-2 bomber.

The goal of the WS10A program was to produce a turbofan equal to the Russian Saturn AL31F, which has a thrust of 27,600 lbst and comparable US engines, to power new 4th generation fighters like the and Chengdu J10 and Shenyang J11. The WS-10 project got direct support from top leader of China. In January 1986, Deng Xiaoping passed a new plan on China's turbofan engine development. One year later, the 606 Design Institute (the AVIC I designation of the Shenyang Engine Design and Research Institute), with its attached department, formally initiated the development of the WS-10, code name Taihang, for China's third generation J-10 fighter. In 1989, after almost a decade of preparation, the WS-10 core engine project started. On 12 June 1989, Chinese aircraft engine manufactures received the order for "HPPSPD core test components". In July, a conference of three most Important Parts of High Pressure compressor was held in the 624 Institute. These three parts include: 7-stage high pressure compressor, short annular combustor with air blast atomizer and air film cooling blade. With out these main parts, China's future core engine can not be resolved. In the future, the core engine will be able to become a medial thrust & small bypass ratio turbofan with a thrust to weight ratio of 8. In China aviation industry, this core engine was called as Medial Thrust Demonstration Turbofan Core Engine, MTDTCE.
 

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Unless you got a cut-out of WS-10 you certainly can't prove that.
Despite some claims that the WS-10A engine is a copy of the AL-31F, the two engines have appeared side by side at airshows. The engines are relatively easy to distinguish using their engine nozzles

testbed J-10B powered by a WS-10 with thrust vectoring (TVC) was demonstrated at the 2018 China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition.[21] The TVC nozzle uses actuator-assisted moving petals, similar in concept to General Electric's axisymmetric vectoring exhaust nozzle (AVEN) and Pratt & Whitney's pitch-yaw balance beam nozzle (PYBBN).[22]

It's so interesting to see how many tricks Chinese played to create capabilities.
 

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The nozzle has nothing to do with the engine configuration. China has been slapping all kinds of nozzles on the same engine.
Please enlighten me with what are the similarities between AL-31 and current WS-10 then?

I have already proved you CFM-56 used GE core F101 which is above Russian technology.
 

Armand2REP

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Please enlighten me with what are the similarities between AL-31 and current WS-10 then?
The dimensions for one, you certainly can't put a CFM-56 into a J-20 but you can put an AL-31F.

I have already proved you CFM-56 used GE core F101 which is above Russian technology.
All the more reason why China wouldn't try to use that engine configuration. They don't have the SCB tech to clone an F101 axial compressor and make it work at afterburning temps. They couldn't even clone it for airline purposes much less military.
 

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CFM-56 into a J-20 but you can put an AL-31F.
Wrong. Just the sme way F-101 one can be put in CFM-56 or F110. the same way it can be extracted to (just the core).

M-88 is smaller engine compared to Kaveri but with modifications its core can be installed too.

If Chinese engine's were totally based on AL-31 then why they lacked thrust vectors for so long which is this specialty of Russian engines.

And in 2k18 first WS-10B used similar configuration which Americans were developing.

I think US state department thought the same thing that you think that core of CFM-56 cannot be extracted but now we see WS-10 with 120–140 kilonewtons (27,000–31,000 lbf)[1] which is comparable to F110-GE-132: 32,000 lbf (140 kN)
In quality there is difference of day and night. But with time it's getting improved

I rest my case. :)
 

Armand2REP

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Wrong. Just the sme way F-101 one can be put in CFM-56 the same way it can be extracted to (just the core)
Wrong, each engine configuration has a certain number of stages that best fits the capabilities of the core it is paired to. The dimensions of WS-10A are far closer to the AL-31F than anything else.
 

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Wrong, each engine configuration has a certain number of stages that best fits the capabilities of the core it is paired to. The dimensions of WS-10A are far closer to the AL-31F than anything else.
That can be reason why they have some quality issues. Because Chinese engines are installed in Russian jet copies J-16 ETC. that's why dimensions are similar to AL-31.
But there is no denying to the fact that CFM-56 played huge role in development of WS-10.
 

Armand2REP

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That can be reason why they have some quality issues. Because Chinese engines are installed in Russian jet copies J-16 ETC. that's why dimensions are similar to AL-31.
But there is no denying to the fact that CFM-56 played huge role in development of WS-10.
If the CFM-56 had anything to do with WS-10 then the Chinese would already have a commercial airline engine long before WS-10A came out. They might have tried to develop one but it certainly failed until they got their hands on AL-31F and a bunch of Ukrainian/Russian engineers. It is so painfully obvious I don't see how you fail to see it. The Chinese aerospace labs are full of unemployed FSU PhDs. China is fully part of Russian brain drain.
 

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If the CFM-56 had anything to do with WS-10 then the Chinese would already have a commercial airline engine long before WS-10A came out. They might have tried to develop one but it certainly failed until they got their hands on AL-31F and a bunch of Ukrainian/Russian engineers. It is so painfully obvious I don't see how you fail to see it. The Chinese aerospace labs are full of unemployed FSU PhDs. China is fully part of Russian brain drain.
Even Russians don't use there own commercial jet even when they have good experience in building jets and all just because reliability issues. So why Chinese who have experience of say 20 years will put life of 300 people in danger. People will not like to travel in unsafe jets?.
Only RR airbus and Boeing have bullet proof reliability in aviation business.

I don't like Chinese (as a state) but i do think they are hard working people.
 

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If the CFM-56 had anything to do with WS-10 then the Chinese would already have a commercial airline engine long before WS-10A came out. They might have tried to develop one but it certainly failed until they got their hands on AL-31F and a bunch of Ukrainian/Russian engineers. It is so painfully obvious I don't see how you fail to see it. The Chinese aerospace labs are full of unemployed FSU PhDs. China is fully part of Russian brain drain.
Isn't it interesting just like Americans Chinese chose to build there WS-20 on WS - 10 core?

The WS-20 (Chinese: 涡扇-20; pinyin: Wōshàn-20; literally: 'turbofan-20') is a high-bypass turbofan being developed to power the Y-20 strategic airlifter, based on the core of the low-bypass turbofan Shenyang WS-10A

With a thrust range of 12,000–14,000 kilograms-force (120,000–140,000 N; 26,000–31,000 lbf), the WS-20 has been flying on an Il-76 test aircraft since 2014,[2]and a few years later an internet photo has revealed a Il-76 test platform being equipped with 4 WS-20s.[3]Although originally projected to enter production in 2016,[4]the progress was much slower than claimed, it was not until Feb 2019 when internet photo revealed a photo of Y-20 prototype with serial number 783 is equipped with a single WS-20 for testing.[3]

Looks like Chinese bought golden egg from America. :lawl::lawl:
CFM-56

Mate if you will see things it clearly shows Chinese engines are build from one of the best American cores. F101 aka F110
The F118 is a non-afterburning derivative of the F110
 
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