Kaveri Engine

Advaidhya Tiwari

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This implies that the Kaveri turbofan should be upgraded to generate 110-kN wet and 75-kN dry thrust. But then an engine of this capability will need to incorporate single crystal blade technology, integrated rotor disk and blades and super alloys of nickel and cobalt.
Wrong information. Older AMCA was 30ton weight class. But it was shown in defexpo that AMCA was made to be a high speed stealth interceptor with 25ton weight class. 70/110kN twin wngine for 25ton weight class will be overpowered. Rafale is similar weight class and it has just 50/75kN engine, Typhoon has 60/90kN engine for same weight class. Anything more than 65/100kN will be considered as overpowered for AMCA.
 

A chauhan

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Haven't DRDO developed a single crystal blade for jet engine ?
 

Adioz

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Haven't DRDO developed a single crystal blade for jet engine ?
They have. 2nd gen SCB AFAIK. I am not sure why the article says that Kaveri is using DS blades. Its still using DS blades?
 

Kshithij

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They have. 2nd gen SCB AFAIK. I am not sure why the article says that Kaveri is using DS blades. Its still using DS blades?
India already has 3rd gen SCB too. But rhenium is a problem for independence and hence we make 2nd generation DS. The difference between the DS and SCB are as follows:
1st generation: DS= SCB +10 celsius
2nd generation: DS +30 celsius = SCB ( 3% rhenium)

3rd generation DS has rhenium and hence is not considered.

The TET of engines like EJ200 with 2nd generation SCB goes to about 1530celsius. The TET of Kaveri with DS can go upto 1460 celsius. There is no need to use SCB. The problems created by rhenium dependency on foreign countries is not worth it. It is best to avoid the problem and use 2nd generation DS. There will be either TWR reduction in engine or life reduction of engines but that is still better than depending on foreign imports for rare metal rhenium.

SCB only helps increase engine life or increase TWR (either of two). If India is willing to use an engine with 1000 hour life instead of 2000 hour life, there is no need for SCB. This is definitely manageable.

I think I have told this several times before and yet you keep insisting that SCB is important.
 

Adioz

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India already has 3rd gen SCB too. But rhenium is a problem for independence and hence we make 2nd generation DS. The difference between the DS and SCB are as follows:
1st generation: DS= SCB +10 celsius
2nd generation: DS +30 celsius = SCB ( 3% rhenium)

3rd generation DS has rhenium and hence is not considered.

The TET of engines like EJ200 with 2nd generation SCB goes to about 1530celsius. The TET of Kaveri with DS can go upto 1460 celsius. There is no need to use SCB. The problems created by rhenium dependency on foreign countries is not worth it. It is best to avoid the problem and use 2nd generation DS. There will be either TWR reduction in engine or life reduction of engines but that is still better than depending on foreign imports for rare metal rhenium.

SCB only helps increase engine life or increase TWR (either of two). If India is willing to use an engine with 1000 hour life instead of 2000 hour life, there is no need for SCB. This is definitely manageable.

I think I have told this several times before and yet you keep insisting that SCB is important.
If rhenium was the bottleneck, there was no reason for DRDO to even try and develop SCB. Why did they even bother?

Also, USA does not have a veto on the world's Rhenium. We can get it from Chile, Peru or Kazakhstan. And even if they can block sales of Rhenium like they did to China, that does not mean they will block the sale to India as well. USA is trying to court us into its Anti-China alliance. Cutting off our Rhenium supply is the stupidest move they can make.

GoI is already working on strategies to obtain a secure supply of Rhenium. Its a strategic objective that the government recognises as well.

As for China, they have a Rhenium mine. They are making SCB using that.
 

darshan978

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Wrong information. Older AMCA was 30ton weight class. But it was shown in defexpo that AMCA was made to be a high speed stealth interceptor with 25ton weight class. 70/110kN twin wngine for 25ton weight class will be overpowered. Rafale is similar weight class and it has just 50/75kN engine, Typhoon has 60/90kN engine for same weight class. Anything more than 65/100kN will be considered as overpowered for AMCA.
but 5th generation jets need to be overpowered buddy they need to be supercruise without afterburners.

so your argument is false that 75 kn is overpowered rafale or typhoon can't supercruise without afterburner.
 

darshan978

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If rhenium was the bottleneck, there was no reason for DRDO to even try and develop SCB. Why did they even bother?

Also, USA does not have a veto on the world's Rhenium. We can get it from Chile, Peru or Kazakhstan. And even if they can block sales of Rhenium like they did to China, that does not mean they will block the sale to India as well. USA is trying to court us into its Anti-China alliance. Cutting off our Rhenium supply is the stupidest move they can make.

GoI is already working on strategies to obtain a secure supply of Rhenium. Its a strategic objective that the government recognises as well.

As for China, they have a Rhenium mine. They are making SCB using that.
here is rhenium available in open market 250000/kg lol
https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/rhenium-15862386048.html
so sanction on rhenium seems impossible as this metal might have many no defense applications..
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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but 5th generation jets need to be overpowered buddy they need to be supercruise without afterburners.

so your argument is false that 75 kn is overpowered rafale or typhoon can't supercruise without afterburner.
This is not true. Rafale can't supercruise but Typhoon can in A2A role. Let me give examples of planes that can supercruise and their engine size:
  1. Su30 MKI has twin Al31F of 80/125kN for 38ton weight. It translates to 53/83kN for 25ton class
  2. EF Typhoon is 24ton class and has 60/90kN engine. 65/100kN Kaveri for AMCA will do even better
  3. F15 is 31ton class and has twin F100 engine with 65/105kN. This translates to 52/85kN for 25ton class.
  4. Su57 is 36ton with Al41F engine of 93/147kN. This translates to 65/102kN for 25ton class

25ton plane using twin 65/100kN Kaveri itself is enough for most operations. It is at the level of PAK-FA currently with Al41F engines. The 75/110kN engine will make AMCA the class of PAK-FA with Izdeliye 30 engine or F22 class. The problem with this is that F22 has 8.3ton of fuel, PAK-FA has 10.3ton of fuel whereas AMCA has fuel of 6tons.

The maximum speed is also said to be 1.8Mach for AMCA. This is in contrast to F22 or PAK-FA with item 30 engine which has maximum speed of 2.25Mach. So, AMCA is most probably designed to have 65/100kN Kaveri, not 75/110kN engines.

 

Kshithij

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If rhenium was the bottleneck, there was no reason for DRDO to even try and develop SCB. Why did they even bother?

Also, USA does not have a veto on the world's Rhenium. We can get it from Chile, Peru or Kazakhstan. And even if they can block sales of Rhenium like they did to China, that does not mean they will block the sale to India as well. USA is trying to court us into its Anti-China alliance. Cutting off our Rhenium supply is the stupidest move they can make.

GoI is already working on strategies to obtain a secure supply of Rhenium. Its a strategic objective that the government recognises as well.

As for China, they have a Rhenium mine. They are making SCB using that.
You see, rhenium production in the world is about 50tons total, every year. So, in case world need to make 5000 engines a year, we won't be able to get rhenium as per requirement even if there is no sanctions. Rhenium is used not only in military engines but also by civilian engines like Boeing planes. Mind you, that older planes also have to be overhauled and engines replaced which also adds to the problems. Also, USA may be approaching India but they may as well backstab. There is no guarantee for friendship with USA.

Even if govt somehow manages to get rhenium, it is still better to be sure with engines that have abundant raw material than with raw material shortage. Even if some stores are lost in war, the engine production must not be stalled due to shortage. Just 50 ton production every year is a damn small quantity. Many other metals are produced in millions of tons a year to give a scale.

India made SCB in 1990s itself. India never made SCB for use in Kaveri. It was just a technology demonstrator and not intended for Kaveri.

Moreover, the requirement for SCB is only if India is aiming for TWR of over 9+. If India is happy with TWR of 8.5-9, there is no need for SCB. The additional cooling and better coating is enough to make the engine have TWR of 8.5+ with 2nd generation DS.


here is rhenium available in open market 250000/kg lol
https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/rhenium-15862386048.html
so sanction on rhenium seems impossible as this metal might have many no defense applications..
The total rhenium production is just 50tons annually. This is too low.

If the requirement per engine is 15kg rhenium. Even if the number of planes made each year is just 24 tejas and 24 AMCA, the number of engines needed will be 72, needing about 1ton rhenium every year. Now, there is always losses in manufacturing due to machining of blades, alloying etc. Hence, this will be about 1.5tons.

Now, if we consider requirement to overhaul another 48 planes, the rhenium requirement will go to 3tons. Overhauling planes is a common practice and is done after about 10 years of plane usage. Considering the tight market of rhenium, this normal production rate itself would be a major problem. Rhenium is also used in engines in civilian aircrafts, transport aircrafts and other industrial applications.

Now, if in war, India has to produce even 1000 engines, it will be a big deal to get rhenium
 

Faithful Guy

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you dumb head go to your pdf you guys cant even make moped and giving us advice lol.prkies are shameless inbreeds who points fingers at others when they own cant do anything except begging to china for every project...
I don't need to give advice to anybody here.

But it's fact that if you don't know where to start than better to take guidance from senior person.

Govt has wasted my tax and I have rights to ask and question.... Brahmos, Su 30 MKi. and others are best example and even railway engines are the best example. They imported but now India is able to manufacture.

Our 1st aircraft also designed by german engineer. I am seek for DRDO and HAL...... Tareek pe Tareek
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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I don't need to give advice to anybody here.

But it's fact that if you don't know where to start than better to take guidance from senior person.

Govt has wasted my tax and I have rights to ask and question.... Brahmos, Su 30 MKi. and others are best example and even railway engines are the best example. They imported but now India is able to manufacture.

Our 1st aircraft also designed by german engineer. I am seek for DRDO and HAL...... Tareek pe Tareek
Tax money spent on Kaveri is peanuts. And for that you got naval as well as aerial engine. Don't forget the engine for Stealth UAV
 

mayfair

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Kaveri engine is anything but a waste of tax payers money.

The governments have wasted my tax on many things, including higher education for some.
 

proud_indian

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I was searching online to see if there any "Turboprop" engine development going on in India.
The only turboprop development I could find is a 180hp diesel engine for Rustom-2 / Tapas UAV, But then I found this article from IDRW.or (I know this is not a very trustworthy source to quote)

http://idrw.org/__trashed-4/

What they are claiming is "HTFE-25 Engine to be adapted to power HTT-40 BTA".

Is it even possible to convert/modify a turbofan engine into a turboprop or they just cooking things up as they always do?

@Enquirer maybe you could put some light
 

Enquirer

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I was searching online to see if there any "Turboprop" engine development going on in India.
The only turboprop development I could find is a 180hp diesel engine for Rustom-2 / Tapas UAV,
The 180hp diesel engine for Rustom is not a Turboprop. It's a regular Internal Combustion (IC) engine (like what you find in automobiles) to which propellers are attached.


But then I found this article from IDRW.or (I know this is not a very trustworthy source to quote)

http://idrw.org/__trashed-4/

What they are claiming is "HTFE-25 Engine to be adapted to power HTT-40 BTA".

Is it even possible to convert/modify a turbofan engine into a turboprop or they just cooking things up as they always do?

@Enquirer maybe you could put some light
It is very much possible to convert a turbofan to a turboprop. The core of the engine is used - essentially it's a turbojet to a turboprop conversion. The bypass section may be ignored.
The fast jet of exhaust that comes out of the end of the combustion chamber is forced through an additional section - a turbine. This turbine is made to rotate by the hot expanding gas, that in turn rotates the propellers.

Note that the basic principle is the same for a turboshaft (helicopter engines) too, but the gear system is different as helos need much higher torque than the turboprop planes.

As such it is not surprising at all that HAL is working on HTFE & HTSE simutaneously (&now the turboprop).
 
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Advaidhya Tiwari

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I was searching online to see if there any "Turboprop" engine development going on in India.
The only turboprop development I could find is a 180hp diesel engine for Rustom-2 / Tapas UAV, But then I found this article from IDRW.or (I know this is not a very trustworthy source to quote)

http://idrw.org/__trashed-4/

What they are claiming is "HTFE-25 Engine to be adapted to power HTT-40 BTA".

Is it even possible to convert/modify a turbofan engine into a turboprop or they just cooking things up as they always do?

@Enquirer maybe you could put some light
Tapas uses piston engine, which is diesel automotive conversion engine and runs on cylinders. It is just a bigger internal combustion truck engine converted to run the UAV. It is not turboprop.

Turboprop is a turbine engine where the turbine drives a shaft. The helicopter engine HTSE1200 is a form of turboprop, but is called turbo-shaft for helicopters. It is easier to make turboshaft engine of lower power once turbine engines have been mastered. India's ability to make 50kN dry thrust turbofan engine has given India required knowledge to make turbine engines like turboprop or tubofan for UAV, helicopters etc.
 

proud_indian

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As such it is not surprising at all that HAL is working on HTFE & HTSE simutaneously (&now the turboprop).
It is certainly not surprising but IDRW is a rather shady source and I haven't heard of this development anywhere else.

Tapas uses piston engine, which is diesel automotive conversion engine and runs on cylinders. It is just a bigger internal combustion truck engine converted to run the UAV. It is not turboprop.

Turboprop is a turbine engine where the turbine drives a shaft. The helicopter engine HTSE1200 is a form of turboprop, but is called turbo-shaft for helicopters. It is easier to make turboshaft engine of lower power once turbine engines have been mastered. India's ability to make 50kN dry thrust turbofan engine has given India required knowledge to make turbine engines like turboprop or tubofan for UAV, helicopters etc.
So it means in future HAL can modify HTSE-1200 engine to power Saras like aircraft!
 

Enquirer

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It is certainly not surprising but IDRW is a rather shady source and I haven't heard of this development anywhere else.
That's true!

So it means in future HAL can modify HTSE-1200 engine to power Saras like aircraft!
Or use HTFE itself (without the turbine section at the end). HTFE's stated objective is to power a 'business jet'
 

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