Kaveri Engine

[Babloo Singh]

Quiet Easy, difficult part is weight reduction & control law software changes...
Su 35 weights approx 1200 kg less than Su 30 Mki...
But Canards aren't a bottle neck to supercruze, else Rafale, EuroFighter, Gripen even J20 won't claim a conditional supercruze...

How hard is it to take canards off of Su-30?

 

[Armand2REP]

Quiet Easy, difficult part is weight reduction & control law software changes...
Su 35 weights approx 1200 kg less than Su 30 Mki...
But Canards aren't a bottle neck to supercruze, else Rafale, EuroFighter, Gripen even J20 won't claim a conditional supercruze...

I thought Super 30 upgrade was going to turn MKI into Su-35.

 

[Babloo Singh]

I thought Super 30 upgrade was going to turn MKI into Su-35.

Capability wise yes, I don't think they will change air frame.
Su 35 has wider wingspan while keeping same wing area, there are other changes which will need tweaking airframe,..... so my guess we will have some aerodynamics improvement tweaks, a more powerful engine will help it supercruze and new radar & weapons/ electronics suits

 

[A chauhan]

How hard is it to take canards off of Su-30?

So hard that it will become a new aircraft, though it seems easy but it will take a complete redesigning of the aerodynamics and other things.

 

[Enquirer]

How hard is it to take canards off of Su-30?

@A chauhan
Firstly it's wild speculation that Su-30MKI will not be able to supercruise despite increasing the engine thrust because of the canards!
Canards do not present much drag at all - probably less than a CCM missile!
And you cannot just remove control surfaces! It was added to have balanced lift & provide maneuverability!

 

[sob]

So hard that it will become a new aircraft, though it seems easy but it will take a complete redesigning of the aerodynamics and other things.

Which is beyond our capability.

 

[A chauhan]

@A chauhan
Firstly it's wild speculation that Su-30MKI will not be able to supercruise despite increasing the engine thrust because of the canards!
Canards do not present much drag at all - probably less than a CCM missile!
And you cannot just remove control surfaces! It was added to have balanced lift & provide maneuverability!

Canards are not the problem, removing canards is the problem, canard mechanism is very heavy if you remove it you won't be able to fly an MKI, since it will unbalance the whole aircraft you'll need to make a lot of structural changes turning it to a completely different aircraft. In other words you will have to make it a Su 35 for super cruising which we can't.

 

[Enquirer]

Canards are not the problem, removing canards is the problem, canard mechanism is very heavy if you remove it you won't be able to fly an MKI, since it will unbalance the whole aircraft you'll need to make a lot of structural changes turning it to a completely different aircraft. In other words you will have to make it a Su 35 for super cruising which we can't.

The Canard weight is not the problem. It's the weight of the radar.
Canards were added to Su-30MKI (a derivative of Su-27) primarily to support the heavy weight of the new & powerful radar.

IAF regarded Su-30MKIs are a 'jugaad' and for a weird reason grew a disdain for canards. They explicitly said Su-35 etc should not have canards if it ever should be marketed to IAF! As such, Su-35 compensated the fore weight in other ways.

(Interestingly the most advanced aircraft that IAF bought - Rafale - has canards!!!!)

 

[Enquirer]

Canards are not the problem, removing canards is the problem, canard mechanism is very heavy if you remove it you won't be able to fly an MKI, since it will unbalance the whole aircraft you'll need to make a lot of structural changes turning it to a completely different aircraft. In other words you will have to make it a Su 35 for super cruising which we can't.

The Canard weight is not the problem. It's the weight of the radar.
Canards were added to Su-30MKI (a derivative of Su-27) primarily to support the heavy weight of the new & powerful radar.

IAF regarded Su-30MKIs are a 'jugaad' and for a weird reason grew a disdain for canards. They explicitly said Su-35 or Mig-35 etc should not have canards if it ever should be marketed to IAF! As such, Su-35 compensated the fore weight in other ways.

(Interestingly the most advanced aircraft that IAF bought - Rafale - has canards!!!!)

 

[Willy3]

The modified MKI which currently testing air launch brahmos missile is 'super sukhoi' ??

 

[Enquirer]

The modified MKI which currently testing air launch brahmos missile is 'super sukhoi' ??

Nope.
Super Sukhoi is a 'designation' given to a MAJOR upgrade involving - AESA radar, new engines, new displays, new EW etc.
Super Sukhoi upgrade will be applicable to ALL squadrons of Su-30MKI.
But the Brahmos-A capability (that requires strengthening of the airframe) has so far been designated for 40 aircraft only!

 

[proud_indian]

I was reading the HAL 2016-17 annual report and this is an excerpt from that report regarding the progress of HTFE 25 engine. According to that

"Preliminary Design Review(PDR) of Engine has been completed during 2014-15. Based on core engine-1 test results the compressor efficiency was found on lower side. Hence compressor redesign was initiated. Compressor redesign completed in Apr 2017. Detailed design and drawing release will be completed by May 2017. Core engine-2 run is planned in Jan 2018 and the full engine run is planned in Jul 2018.

Can anyone plz put some light on whether they have tested the engine with the redesigned compressor or not.

 

[Enquirer]

I was reading the HAL 2016-17 annual report and this is an excerpt from that report regarding the progress of HTFE 25 engine. According to that

"Preliminary Design Review(PDR) of Engine has been completed during 2014-15. Based on core engine-1 test results the compressor efficiency was found on lower side. Hence compressor redesign was initiated. Compressor redesign completed in Apr 2017. Detailed design and drawing release will be completed by May 2017. Core engine-2 run is planned in Jan 2018 and the full engine run is planned in Jul 2018.

Can anyone plz put some light on whether they have tested the engine with the redesigned compressor or not.

Good find!!!

If you can do the good work again with 2017-18 report and share the answer to your question, everyone will be grateful to you

 

[proud_indian]

Good find!!!

If you can do the good work again with 2017-18 report and share the answer to your question, everyone will be grateful to you

O bhai taang khaich raha hai kya?

 

[Enquirer]

O bhai taang khaich raha hai kya?

O bhai! Sache dil se taareef kar raha hoon!

Always good to see folks probe/research and come up with interesting questions.

 

[proud_indian]

@Enquirer

HTFE 25 Project: The Company has taken up the design and development of Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine (HTFE-25) in 2013-14 with a time frame of 6 years for completion.

Do you think 6 years a realistic time frame for an ab initio project like this and especially for a company like HAL?
Do you really think they can deliver this by 2020?

 

[Enquirer]

@Enquirer



Do you think 6 years a realistic time frame for an ab initio project like this and especially for a company like HAL?
Do you really think they can deliver this by 2020?

It all depends on what application it's being geared up for.
If it's for UAV applications then minimal amount of testing might suffice. But if they want to power 'business jets' then the testing/certification regimen will be very time consuming.

That said, it appears that they're already 2 years behind (2 extra years spent in redesign), so it's unlikely they'll complete by 2020. An ambitious new estimate will be 2022 (if all goes well) - but as you can expect there will be glitches.

To answer your question, using HAL itself as a example: 6 years is too short for a brand new engine! Seems like it'll take 8-10 years. And probably beyond 12 years for powering passenger planes.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

@Enquirer



Do you think 6 years a realistic time frame for an ab initio project like this and especially for a company like HAL?
Do you really think they can deliver this by 2020?

It is a 25kN engine and does not require special alloy, has no afterburner and does not have too much of weight constraint. So, making 25kN engine should be a rather easy endeavor. This will be derived from the experience of making kaveri, R25B and Al31F engines.

 

[Enquirer]

It is a 25kN engine and does not require special alloy, has no afterburner and does not have too much of weight constraint. So, making 25kN engine should be a rather easy endeavor. This will be derived from the experience of making kaveri, R25B and Al31F engines.

Everthing will be subject to weight constraints depending on what platform it goes onto.
Reliability however will be more of an acute requirement than weight, though.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Everthing will be subject to weight constraints depending on what platform it goes onto.
Reliability however will be more of an acute requirement than weight, though.

Of course, there will be weight constraints. But the constraints of after burning turbofans will not be there and it will be easier as a result