Kaveri Engine

[delbruky]

I could be wrong but in my opinion Kaveri is a gonner, I have serious doubts about the Kaveri - Safran deal. I think the negotiations have ended in a deadlock and as a consequence there are was no announcement of any such deal. Safran is now going to invest else where for satisfying the offset policy.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/safran-to-set-up-unit-in-telangana/article23036732.ece

 

[Kshithij]

I agree with Armand.......No one is going to give away full jet engine technology for any price. Only 4 countries in the world have state of the art jet engine - US, UK, France and Russia. Not even Japan as advanced as they are in materials has engine technology. None of the guys that have it are going to depart with it for any price.

The level of effort and money to come up to speed on this technology that involves so many disciplines is so enormous that a country like India should focus its resources elsewhere, and just buy engines from a reliable supplier or assemble them locally. Assembling engines is not the same as making them from scratch which involves thousands of components. India doesn't make AL31F.....it only assembles them. Kaveri is no where near getting into the LCA.

Becoming self-sufficient in defense doesn't mean that you have to make every key piece. A country like India should spend its resources wisely.....instead of reaching for the sky.

The wise spending is on engine technology. And you are wrong that India does not make Al31F. India makes them from raw material stage- fully inhouse.

Then WTF does it mean?
I would agree if you would have said: "Being self-sufficient does not mean that you have to make every piece". But every key piece must be made in-house.


The superalloys without Rhenium are used in first generation SCB. Look at the tables on pages 996 and 997 of your link. CMSX-4 and PWA 1484 are the only second gen SCB materials mentioned in the document. These contain 3% Re content.

Edit: That document has some new info for me. Apparently, the second generation of DS materials have some Rhenium content. Now let us imagine a scenario where DMRL and GTRE do not have access to Rhenium. That means that we were not able to create the second generation DS materials. Which means that the SCB in the following picture are not Second generation SCB, but first generation SCB.

So does this mean that DRDO does not have second generation SCB after all? And if this is true, then could this be the reason why we are collaborating with France? 'Cause we don't have access to Rhenium?

If lack of access to Rhenium is the real problem, then why does GTRE and DMRL not come out and say so? Something is off here.
We know that TET of Kaveri in last known run was 1700 K. This could not have happened with first generation SCB tech that can withstand a mere 1270 K. Especially so since GTRE has accepted that thermal barrier coating was a problem area. And even if they did somehow improve their coatings upto the state-of-the-art 300K protection, then that means all further scope of improvement in engine TET is over until we get Rhenium. In that case, DRDO would have come out in public and spelled out this reason. Or at least mentioned it bitterly in some interview.

Kaveri is a gonner, I have serious doubts about the Kaveri - Safran deal. I think the negotiations have ended in a deadlock and as a consequence there are was no announcement of any such deal. Safran is now going to invest else where for satisfying the offset policy.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/safran-to-set-up-unit-in-telangana/article23036732.ece

No, the 2nd table has 2 subdivision - one for 2nd gen DS and other for 2nd gen SC. DS does not have rhenium even in 2nd generation

 

[Steven Rogers]

DMRL patented SCB has better performance than the AL31FP engine SCB, their has been a lot of investment in Thermal barrier coating.

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[Kshithij]

India don't produce SCB, Rehneuim content needed 3 percent on 2nd SCB, and 5 percent on 3rd gen SCB, and above 5 on 4th SCB.

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DMRL patented SCB has better performance than the AL31FP engine SCB, their has been a lot of investment in Thermal barrier coating.

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The above two posts contradict each other. And these were made in a span of just 22 hours.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The above two posts contradict each other. And these were made in a span of just 22 hours.

No they don't, India have patented SCB, but it's not in production. This SCB if it is really better than what AL31FP, then it could have Rhenium, China will be the possible exporter for Rare earth metals to India

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[Adioz]

No, the 2nd table has 2 subdivision - one for 2nd gen DS and other for 2nd gen SC. DS does not have rhenium even in 2nd generation

Sorry, I mistyped it as 2nd gen. I meant 3rd generation DS blades have Rhenium. Its written in that same document.

China will be the possible exporter for Rare earth metals to India

Rare Earths OK. But Rhenium???

I could be wrong but in my opinion Kaveri is a gonner, I have serious doubts about the Kaveri - Safran deal. I think the negotiations have ended in a deadlock and as a consequence there are was no announcement of any such deal. Safran is now going to invest else where for satisfying the offset policy.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/safran-to-set-up-unit-in-telangana/article23036732.ece

Kaveri is not a gonner. Even if the Safran tie-up falls apart, the effort is too close to success to be be given up. Rest assured, even if Kaveri does not result in a flying engine, we have learnt a great deal from this project. If Rhenium is the reason why we are unable to produce better turbine blades, then future engines are going to require a serious effort in R&D of ceramic blades.

 

[Kshithij]

Sorry, I mistyped it as 2nd gen. I meant 3rd generation DS blades have Rhenium. Its written in that same document.

Rare Earths OK. But Rhenium???

Kaveri is not a gonner. Even if the Safran tie-up falls apart, the effort is too close to success to be be given up. Rest assured, even if Kaveri does not result in a flying engine, we have learnt a great deal from this project. If Rhenium is the reason why we are unable to produce better turbine blades, then future engines are going to require a serious effort in R&D of ceramic blades.

Yes, 3rd generation DS having rhenium makes sense. 2nd generation DS has as much of TET as 1st generation SCB. So, unless rhenium is obtained, more TET is difficult

China was not able to produce high end turbofan engines as USA had blocked chinese access to rhenium.

Al31F has no rhenium in it. Even F404 has the same TWR as AL31F and is unlikely to have rhenium. In this scenario, India still has a choice of using the technology of 1st generaton SCB or 2nd generation DS with cooling vanes and thermal coating to get an engine as good as F404/Al31F in TWR instead of pursuing rhenium based higher TWR engine. It is better to have something than have nothing. The engine may have lower lifespan compared to rhenium based ones but that is still better than not having an engine or importing an engine.

Rhenium is unlikely to have a substitute. CMC is a bit of a stretch and I am not sure if that will ever be successful. The most safest option is to continue with the 4th generation engine and instead manufacture planes in larger numbers to make up for the deficiency like fuel consumption.

 

[smestarz]

Do we really need French Radar and French missiles? We dont want to be french dependent nor do we need French help to export our planes, like the French needed ours.

A Tejas Mk2 powered by Safranised Kaveri, RBE2 mini, and armed with some French missiles would give the French state enough impetus to market on behalf of India. It is not like we make M2000 anymore that would compete against ourselves.

 

[Armand2REP]

We dont want to be french dependent nor do we need French help to export our planes, like the French needed ours.

I haven't seen any of your planes exported yet. Your aerospace industry has an annual turnover of $250 million. The French aerospace industry is $75 billion, second only to the US. Do you think India could learn something? If you think Russia is the way to go their aerospace industry is only $15 billion. Think past military, that is small potatoes to the civilian market. We just signed a $16 billion engine order with Spice which is worth far more than the Rafale that is causing a political circus for no good reason.

 

[delbruky]

Sorry, I mistyped it as 2nd gen. I meant 3rd generation DS blades have Rhenium. Its written in that same document.


Rare Earths OK. But Rhenium???



Kaveri is not a gonner. Even if the Safran tie-up falls apart, the effort is too close to success to be be given up. Rest assured, even if Kaveri does not result in a flying engine, we have learnt a great deal from this project. If Rhenium is the reason why we are unable to produce better turbine blades, then future engines are going to require a serious effort in R&D of ceramic blades.

If GTRE were indeed too close to resolving it we wouldn't have required foreign help and in turn we wouldn't have kept waiting....waiting.....waiting.........
I would love to belly your optimism but my reservations are based upon observations, Offset policy apart and correct me if I am wrong I don't think that the present govt has invested much into kaveri either (and to my dismay).
Drdo funds allocated for kaveri should have had two basic components
1.) Funds For comprehensive research in Alloys, Design and Fabrication
2.) Funds for Testing: the umpteen number of test beds (High Alt, Low alt, Gas Turbine Wind Tunnel replicating High alt...etc.
Unfortunately there is very little public info on development baring a few HAL tenders.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Do we really need French Radar and French missiles? We dont want to be french dependent nor do we need French help to export our planes, like the French needed ours.

French radar and missiles will come with a technology transfer clause, Indian radar development had a major thorn, coding of A2G and air to sea modes, that didn't went well in MMR, Thales RBE2, if ordered for Tejas mk1a will make up nos around 200, including the Rafale and the future 36 order for rafale, India still needs thrust vector technology for the its missiles like Astra, which our so called best friend hasn't provided to us despite all of our a2a inventory belongs to them.

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[Kshithij]

If GTRE were indeed too close to resolving it we wouldn't have required foreign help and in turn we wouldn't have kept waiting....waiting.....waiting.........
I would love to belly your optimism but my reservations are based upon observations, Offset policy apart and correct me if I am wrong I don't think that the present govt has invested much into kaveri either (and to my dismay).
Drdo funds allocated for kaveri should have had two basic components
1.) Funds For comprehensive research in Alloys, Design and Fabrication
2.) Funds for Testing: the umpteen number of test beds (High Alt, Low alt, Gas Turbine Wind Tunnel replicating High alt...etc.
Unfortunately there is very little public info on development baring a few HAL tenders.

Have you considered the problems caused by UPA government? In 2009 Mahana Rao of GTRE had given a statement that India does not give enough funds to GTRE. Not only Kaveri but even things like Scorpene submarine was signed by Vajpayee but the first delivery happened in 2016. Similarly, many other itesm like IAC-1, Tejas etc were all delayed by Congress under foreign pressure. So, you must only include data of BJP era to make conclusions, not congress.

French radar and missiles will come with a technology transfer clause, Indian radar development had a major thorn, coding of A2G and air to sea modes, that didn't went well in MMR, Thales RBE2, if ordered for Tejas mk1a will make up nos around 200, including the Rafale and the future 36 order for rafale, India still needs thrust vector technology for the its missiles like Astra, which our so called best friend hasn't provided to us despite all of our a2a inventory belongs to them.

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There is no technology transfer with French missiles. India already has UTTAM radar and Indian IT prowess is much higher than French. In addition, Israel has provided us with the codes of their ELBIT radar. It is however possible to get the technology of missiles from reverse engineering.

Tejas MK1A is not a desirable plane. Tejas MK2 is the plane India is looking forward to. Tejas MK2 will have Indian radar and engine. Even missile system is likely to be Indian.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Have you considered the problems caused by UPA government? In 2009 Mahana Rao of GTRE had given a statement that India does not give enough funds to GTRE. Not only Kaveri but even things like Scorpene submarine was signed by Vajpayee but the first delivery happened in 2016. Similarly, many other itesm like IAC-1, Tejas etc were all delayed by Congress under foreign pressure. So, you must only include data of BJP era to make conclusions, not congress.



There is no technology transfer with French missiles. India already has UTTAM radar and Indian IT prowess is much higher than French. In addition, Israel has provided us with the codes of their ELBIT radar. It is however possible to get the technology of missiles from reverse engineering.

Tejas MK1A is not a desirable plane. Tejas MK2 is the plane India is looking forward to. Tejas MK2 will have Indian radar and engine. Even missile system is likely to be Indian.

India has so for ordered 83 mk1a whether it is desirable or not. The technology of Thrust vector for a2a missile is what India needs and that will come with meteor, 100 RBE2 radars will bring the tot unless UTTAM appears fit for mk1a. Missile system will be Indian for sure, Astra will form the backbone of a2a capability, but currently Tejas needs Wvr missile, ASRAAM is the only option after python 5.

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[Armand2REP]

Tejas needs Wvr missile, ASRAAM is the only option after python 5.

Mica is better than both and is already in service. It doubles as both WVRAAM and BVRAAM in the IR version.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Mica is better than both and is already in service. It doubles as both WVRAAM and BVRAAM in the IR version.

Mica has offbore launch capability??

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[dssrikanth]

Kaveri is becoming successful. Safran's M88 core is not suitable for kaveri ,kabini the kaveri's core will have M88core 's SCBs with bigger size which will be manufactured in Safran facility in Telangana st.The offset obligation of safran thus satisfy without forming joint venture with Indian co.As no Indian co.has experience in making aeroengines,forming jt. venture creates noise of scam similar to Dassalt venture.

 

[Kshithij]

Kaveri is becoming successful. Safran's M88 core is not suitable for kaveri ,kabini the kaveri's core will have M88core 's SCBs with bigger size which will be manufactured in Safran facility in Telangana st.The offset obligation of safran thus satisfy without forming joint venture with Indian co.As no Indian co.has experience in making aeroengines,forming jt. venture creates noise of scam similar to Dassalt venture.

HAL Koraput makes AL31F engine from raw material stage. Who told you that India can't make core of engine? Rhenium supply is the problem for 2nd and 3rd generation SCB. So, 2nd generation DS blades are used. The problem with higher generation SCB is rhenium supply. Rhenium extraction in the world is just 50 ton every year and costs over $12000 per kg. Even then open market supply of rhenium is minimal.

 

[MrPresident]

Have you considered the problems caused by UPA government? In 2009 Mahana Rao of GTRE had given a statement that India does not give enough funds to GTRE. Not only Kaveri but even things like Scorpene submarine was signed by Vajpayee but the first delivery happened in 2016. Similarly, many other itesm like IAC-1, Tejas etc were all delayed by Congress under foreign pressure. So, you must only include data of BJP era to make conclusions, not congress.



There is no technology transfer with French missiles. India already has UTTAM radar and Indian IT prowess is much higher than French. In addition, Israel has provided us with the codes of their ELBIT radar. It is however possible to get the technology of missiles from reverse engineering.

Tejas MK1A is not a desirable plane. Tejas MK2 is the plane India is looking forward to. Tejas MK2 will have Indian radar and engine. Even missile system is likely to be Indian.

I like to disagree with the IT prowness part. India is an IT gaint for providing cheap service not by inventing new computer language or a revolutionary software. Europeans and Americans are pioneers and invest a lot in research and development. We only learn from them and support while they move on to next level of research. This is the harsh truth of software industry in India.

This is what my experience after being in software industry for 10 yrs.

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[Adioz]

The only reason why we are talking of a "Saffranized Kaveri" is 'cause its better to have an engine of which some parts are built in India fitted into Tejas. The alternatives are American built F-414.
But let us not forget, "Saffranized Kaveri" is nothing but a stop-gap. The Indian fighter jet engine industry will need more research to be able to produce an engine that we can call as one that was "Made in India".
Saffranized Kaveri in 2008 (GTRE director interview):-
In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline
^^Makes my blood boil to see the French trying to kill our indigenous aero-engine industry.
A quote from this article:-

Snecma will bring its (engine) core that is named Eco. A core, which comprise a compressor, combustor and high-pressure turbine, is the heart of any jet engine. The engine will have less weight and more reheat thrust along with certain other changes to meet the original design intent. They will have a workshare of 45%, and ours would be 55%. Nearly 85% of the manufacturing would be within the country. The engine would be certified for fitting in the aircraft in around four years. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will produce the engine and all future aircraft engines in India would be from the joint venture

all future aircraft engines in India would be from the joint venture

The French can suc* m* di*k if they think they can lay claim to all future aero engines created in India. And then we have retards like @aarav who can't wait to jump in bed with the French.
I just read this interview today. I cannot believe this f**king line. Tell me that I am misunderstanding something because this seems shady as F**k. Is this the deal that is being worked upon right now? @lcafanboy ? If so, I say F*** the French and their saffranized $hit. We will be happier using GE engines.

Drdo funds allocated for kaveri should have had two basic components
1.) Funds For comprehensive research in Alloys, Design and Fabrication
2.) Funds for Testing: the umpteen number of test beds (High Alt, Low alt, Gas Turbine Wind Tunnel replicating High alt...etc.
Unfortunately there is very little public info on development baring a few HAL tenders.

1. So how did DRDO come up with single crystal tech in this decade?
2. Some facilities are online in India, but we still need to go abroad for testing some things.

I believe the government will undoubtedly throw more money at this project, or a new jet engine project, if negotiations with the French fail to bear fruit.

If GTRE were indeed too close to resolving it we wouldn't have required foreign help and in turn we wouldn't have kept waiting....waiting.....waiting.........
I would love to belly your optimism but my reservations are based upon observations

Kaveri is almost there. This is a fact. We require foreign due to time constraint. GTRE is not close to resolving the last few problems remaining because we still do not have all the test facilities required in India. Remember the blade throw issue? GTRE tried to isolate the cause for 3 years. Then they gave up and went to Russia for some tests. Figured out the problem immediately. Had the facility been present here, we would not have had to waste so much f**king time. So you are absolutely correct when you say that the government has invested nothing in Kaveri.

The problem with higher generation SCB is rhenium supply. Rhenium extraction in the world is just 50 ton every year and costs over $12000 per kg. Even then open market supply of rhenium is minimal.

This is bugging me a lot. We still need some conformation from GTRE and DMRL on this. Is Rhenium unavailability the reason why we are unable to produce next gen SCB? @sayareakd could you please ask this to someone from DMRL and GTRE in DefExpo? Please ask them if there is some plan to develop ceramic matrix composite turbine blades in the near future and if there is some progress on this front.

 

[Kshithij]

I like to disagree with the IT prowness part. India is an IT gaint for providing cheap service not by inventing new computer language or a revolutionary software. Europeans and Americans are pioneers and invest a lot in research and development. We only learn from them and support while they move on to next level of research. This is the harsh truth of software industry in India.

This is what my experience after being in software industry for 10 yrs.

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India has various levels of IT. I am from an IIT and I have lot of friends in IT, in consultancy, trading firms and have built extremely great softwares. Some of the softwares built for the semester projects itself was fantastic.

India has IT industry at all levels which employs over 30lakh people directly (excluding other employment like security, hospitality etc). Of this, 10% are very high end and extremely intelligent. That itself gives over 3 lakh people. Since IT industry is so prevalent, most of the highly educated people are well versed with coding and as a result it becomes easier to find talented people as lot of choices are available.

We can also request over 20 lakh IT employees working in USA and EU to help in developing codes for our industry if we even run out of talent in India. Request from high levels of government like ministers, secetaries can make even the best people return to India.