Kaveri Engine

[Kshithij]

GE 404 that is being used on Tejas has 2nd gen single crystal blades. When the GE 404 first came, it had first generation single-crystal blade. See source: (https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1991/1991 - 0980.PDF). The GE404 being used now in Tejas has newer tech including a new hot section(read the sources I have quoted below). Therefore, F404-IN20 variant has 2nd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE414 has 3rd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE has further developed a new version of GE-414 which has CMC blades (source: GE Successfully Tests World’s First Rotating Ceramic Matrix Composite Material for Next-Gen Combat Engine).









So looks like Rhenium is not our limitation after all. Its good to know that DMRL is working on 2nd gen SCB.
Thanks for the info buddy. Now we need someone going to DefExpo2018 to confirm if DRDO has indeed succeeded in making these blades and where they got the Rhenium from.


This is enough to show that Kaveri is a more advanced engine.

I forgot to mention that the ceramic was used in the low pressure turbine and not in high pressure turbine. There is a long way to go

 

[Steven Rogers]

Firstly, jet engine includes thousands of metal components, single crystal tech is used by only a part of them. There are still plenty of other components require other cutting-edge materials;


Secondly, when scientists claim that they already have a kind of new tech, it is only half truth. They didn’t mention is there is still long way to go before successfully applying this tech in specific product. If we take the single crystal tech as an example, After the scientists successfully produce this in their lab, they can claim the success. However, it is not over yet, the factory will take it over and start second round R&D on how to produce the single crystal in mass production with acceptable quality, and acceptable cost. This procedure may take even longer time to finish. And the story is not over yet. Since you need to use these new material on your blade, the tooling machine may also need to upgrade since the new material may be stronger, then you have to develop another metal knife, or new mould.





The problem is most of these facilities are made of also cutting-edge techs, there are very few countries can build them. They do not only require fund, but also time. Do recall, some of the test facilities took both Chinese and Japanese more than 10 years to complete.






You can only say that when your engine starts to fly on a fighter jet.






The way I read this story is: It took Indian scientists 3 years to understand that they will need certain kind of test facilities to fix the problem. It is not their fault, in most of cases, you won’t know what kind of testing facilities you will need before you are developing something by yourselves. These are part of knowledge and experience as well. But it is definitely anyone else fault, people won’t provide fund for something even yourselves don’t know about it.

Actually test facilities were major pain from the start of the project, politics of a country is very complicated, huge investment requires an answer to public and opposition, we don't have communist gov where we can declare our PM, PM till life time. Their is a whole record of money which is spend in the project. And investment is required for such facilities. However time and money both have went to establish such facility at HAL.

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[Steven Rogers]

DMRL have mastered 3rd generation SCB technology DMS4 and DMD4(directionally solidified) in the mid 90s. DMS4 has 6.5 % Rhenium content and Maximum temperature capability of about 1140C. Also developement of thermal barrier coating can increase to to 300C.
Source : https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s12666-010-0036-7.pdf

Bingo.

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[Steven Rogers]

Firstly, jet engine includes thousands of metal components, single crystal tech is used by only a part of them. There are still plenty of other components require other cutting-edge materials;


Secondly, when scientists claim that they already have a kind of new tech, it is only half truth. They didn’t mention is there is still long way to go before successfully applying this tech in specific product. If we take the single crystal tech as an example, After the scientists successfully produce this in their lab, they can claim the success. However, it is not over yet, the factory will take it over and start second round R&D on how to produce the single crystal in mass production with acceptable quality, and acceptable cost. This procedure may take even longer time to finish. And the story is not over yet. Since you need to use these new material on your blade, the tooling machine may also need to upgrade since the new material may be stronger, then you have to develop another metal knife, or new mould.

That stage in India is called certification stage after the patent is filed. Repeating same phenomenon is not easy, so certification takes time and before that product can't be passed to factories. We facilities available for producing SCB in the factories, but certification stage is longer so the product will reach factories only when it is certified for production.

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[Kshithij]

DMRL have mastered 3rd generation SCB technology DMS4 and DMD4(directionally solidified) in the mid 90s. DMS4 has 6.5 % Rhenium content and Maximum temperature capability of about 1140C. Also developement of thermal barrier coating can increase to to 300C.
Source : https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s12666-010-0036-7.pdf

DMS4 is 3rd generation SC whereas DMD4 is the same alloy in composition as DMS4 but is a DS structure.

The cooling system and thermal coating can give addition heat advantage of 100 and 250 celsius respectively.

DMS4 is said to be 80 celsius better than 1st generation SCB (about 70 celsius better than 2nd gen DS) and 8 celsius better than a third generation SCB CMSX10. CMSX10 has 1000 hour life at 1100 celsius and can handle short durations of 1150 celsius without failure. So, DMS4 can handle 1110 celsius for 1000 hour life and can take upto 1160 celsius for short duration.

With addition of thermal coating and cooling system, the total temperature tolerance can go over 1160+350 i.e 1500+Celsius. So, Total TET can come upto roughly 1750K at engine life of 1000 hours and even upto 1800K with slightly lower engine life

But, the F404 engine uses DS blades with TET upto 1720K. Kaveri also can use similar blades with a bypass of 0.5 to get 100kN even without using any of the rhenium based alloy

I have attached the PDF file of the alloy and the link is below:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...Monte-Carlo-Simulations-and-3D-Atom-Probe.pdf

I remember posting this yesterday. Also I remember @Steven Rogers stating that he does not have $34 to subscribe. But where are the comments gone now? Did anyone delete them?

 

[Steven Rogers]

DMS4 is 3rd generation SC whereas DMD4 is the same alloy in composition as DMS4 but is a DS structure.

The cooling system and thermal coating can give addition heat advantage of 100 and 250 celsius respectively.

DMS4 is said to be 80 celsius better than 1st generation SCB (about 70 celsius better than 2nd gen DS) and 8 celsius better than a third generation SCB CMSX10. CMSX10 has 1000 hour life at 1100 celsius and can handle short durations of 1150 celsius without failure. So, DMS4 can handle 1110 celsius for 1000 hour life and can take upto 1160 celsius for short duration.

With addition of thermal coating and cooling system, the total temperature tolerance can go over 1160+350 i.e 1500+Celsius. So, Total TET can come upto roughly 1750K at engine life of 1000 hours and even upto 1800K with slightly lower engine life

But, the F404 engine uses DS blades with TET upto 1720K. Kaveri also can use similar blades with a bypass of 0.5 to get 100kN even without using any of the rhenium based alloy

I have attached the PDF file of the alloy and the link is below:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...Monte-Carlo-Simulations-and-3D-Atom-Probe.pdf

I remember posting this yesterday. Also I remember @Steven Rogers stating that he does not have $34 to subscribe. But where are the comments gone now? Did anyone delete them?

I guess the comments deleted, I the posted the screen shots of the pdf .

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[Steven Rogers]

DMS4 is 3rd generation SC whereas DMD4 is the same alloy in composition as DMS4 but is a DS structure.

The cooling system and thermal coating can give addition heat advantage of 100 and 250 celsius respectively.

DMS4 is said to be 80 celsius better than 1st generation SCB (about 70 celsius better than 2nd gen DS) and 8 celsius better than a third generation SCB CMSX10. CMSX10 has 1000 hour life at 1100 celsius and can handle short durations of 1150 celsius without failure. So, DMS4 can handle 1110 celsius for 1000 hour life and can take upto 1160 celsius for short duration.

With addition of thermal coating and cooling system, the total temperature tolerance can go over 1160+350 i.e 1500+Celsius. So, Total TET can come upto roughly 1750K at engine life of 1000 hours and even upto 1800K with slightly lower engine life

But, the F404 engine uses DS blades with TET upto 1720K. Kaveri also can use similar blades with a bypass of 0.5 to get 100kN even without using any of the rhenium based alloy

I have attached the PDF file of the alloy and the link is below:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...Monte-Carlo-Simulations-and-3D-Atom-Probe.pdf

I remember posting this yesterday. Also I remember @Steven Rogers stating that he does not have $34 to subscribe. But where are the comments gone now? Did anyone delete them?

Kaveri needs 1800C in hot section for 100kN thrust.

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[Kshithij]

Kaveri needs 1800C in hot section for 100kN thrust.

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The Al31F has 0.59 bypass and works without rhenium based alloys for example to produce 125kN thrust with 1570kg and TET 1685. We can get 2nd generation DS with better cooling and thermal coating to get 1720K like F404.

F404 has 0.34 bypass. Kaveri can have bypass of 0.5-0.55 to get 100kN. Increasing bypass will decrease fuel consumption. It will have some impact on supersonic flight but as long as bypass is not increased beyond 0.55-0.6, it should be fine. 0.16 bypass makes Kaveri a leaky turbojet and hence increases fuel consumption drastically. Minimum bypass of 0.3 is mandatory to make it a reasonable turbofan. 0.5 bypass is optimal to get the maximum juice out of the fuel

Also, 1800C is a bit extreme. I hope you intended to say 1800K.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The Al31F has 0.59 bypass and works without rhenium based alloys for example to produce 125kN thrust with 1570kg and TET 1685. We can get 2nd generation DS with better cooling and thermal coating to get 1720K like F404.

F404 has 0.34 bypass. Kaveri can have bypass of 0.5-0.55 to get 100kN. Increasing bypass will decrease fuel consumption. It will have some impact on supersonic flight but as long as bypass is not increased beyond 0.55-0.6, it should be fine.

Also, 1800C is a bit extreme. I hope you intended to say 1800K.

Well for achieving Thrust to weight approx 9, or even matching the Snecma M88's 8.75:1, it's required that much heat in the hot section. GEF414 proposed EPE has thrust to weight of about 11:1, matching the 5th gen PW f135. 100kN Kaveri with 90kN flat rate limit the requirement is 1847C(2120K)as per wiki link.

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[Kshithij]

Well for achieving Thrust to weight approx 9, or even matching the Snecma M88's 8.75:1, it's required that much heat in the hot section. GEF414 proposed EPE has thrust to weight of about 11:1, matching the 5th gen PW f135. 100kN Kaveri with 90kN flat rate limit the requirement is 1847C(2120K)as per wiki link.

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F119 has TET of 1530C. You want Kaveri to have 1850C? No matter what wiki say,no engine in the world has TET even close to 1800C. F414EPE is fiction. It envisaged CMC usage. I would not take it for real till CMC is actually developed which can handle the high stress abd heat. F414 also intends to get 110kN which is not something I am stating. I only want 100kN, flat rated to 90kN with a bigger fan to get higher bypass and weight of 1200kg. I want only TWR of 8. That is possible with TET if 1720K

For AMCA we can think of having a better engine. For a plane like Tejas which is for mass manufacturing, we can't afford to have very complicated engine which takes lot if resources and timw to make

 

[Kshithij]

Well for achieving Thrust to weight approx 9, or even matching the Snecma M88's 8.75:1, it's required that much heat in the hot section. GEF414 proposed EPE has thrust to weight of about 11:1, matching the 5th gen PW f135. 100kN Kaveri with 90kN flat rate limit the requirement is 1847C(2120K)as per wiki link.

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M88 has TET if 1850K. The difference between 3rd gen SC and 2nd generation DS is about 80C only. So, the remaining TET must have come due to efficient cooling and thermal coating. So, by removing the SCB and replacing with 2nd Gen DSA, we can still get TET of 1750K using similar cooling and thermal coating.

 

[Steven Rogers]

M88 has TET if 1850K. The difference between 3rd gen SC and 2nd generation DS is about 80C only. So, the remaining TET must have come due to efficient cooling and thermal coating. So, by removing the SCB and replacing with 2nd Gen DSA, we can still get TET of 1750K using similar cooling and thermal coating.

We can get results equivalents to EJ200 if use 3rd gen SCB in flat rate thrust, while can match GEF414INS6 in total thrust, GEF414INS6 has thrust to weight 9:1 so if Kaveri makes equivalent to that we can do that with 3rd gen SCB .

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[Kshithij]

We can get results equivalents to EJ200 if use 3rd gen SCB in flat rate thrust, while can match GEF414INS6 in total thrust, GEF414INS6 has thrust to weight 9:1 so if Kaveri makes equivalent to that we can do that with 3rd gen SCB .

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Ej200 weighs 990kg and F414 weighs 1110kg. We can have an engine that weighs 1200kg and 100kN thrust without using rhenium by simply increasing the bypass to 0.5. It will be less efficient than 3rd generation SCB based engine but is enough for a 4.5generation plane. We can have Kaveri with rhenium DMD4 alloy based engine for AMCA with identical dimensions as Kaveri but with higher TET and hence a higher thrust of 110kN.

I am not sure if AMCA needs 125kN flat rated to 110kN or 110kN flat rated to 100kN. If the weight of AMCA is less than 30 tons, 110kN flat rated to 100kN will be sufficient to give supercruise ability. But if the choise is 125kN, then new engine will have to be developed.

i find it advantageous to make the same engine but with different blades for Tejas and AMCA

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

Ej200 weighs 990kg and F414 weighs 1110kg. We can have an engine that weighs 1200kg and 100kN thrust without using rhenium by simply increasing the bypass to 0.5. It will be less efficient than 3rd generation SCB based engine but is enough for a 4.5generation plane. We can have Kaveri with rhenium DMD4 alloy based engine for AMCA with identical dimensions as Kaveri but with higher TET and hence a higher thrust of 110kN.

I am not sure if AMCA needs 125kN flat rated to 110kN or 110kN flat rated to 100kN. If the weight of AMCA is less than 30 tons, 110kN flat rated to 100kN will be sufficient to give supercruise ability. But if the choise is 125kN, then new engine will have to be developed.

i find it advantageous to make the same engine but with different blades for Tejas and AMCA

@Adioz

Bahi @Kshithij tu phekna band karde yaar!!! :blah:

 

[Steven Rogers]

Ej200 weighs 990kg and F414 weighs 1110kg. We can have an engine that weighs 1200kg and 100kN thrust without using rhenium by simply increasing the bypass to 0.5. It will be less efficient than 3rd generation SCB based engine but is enough for a 4.5generation plane. We can have Kaveri with rhenium DMD4 alloy based engine for AMCA with identical dimensions as Kaveri but with higher TET and hence a higher thrust of 110kN.

I am not sure if AMCA needs 125kN flat rated to 110kN or 110kN flat rated to 100kN. If the weight of AMCA is less than 30 tons, 110kN flat rated to 100kN will be sufficient to give supercruise ability. But if the choise is 125kN, then new engine will have to be developed.

i find it advantageous to make the same engine but with different blades for Tejas and AMCA

Since the plan for KAVERI JET ENGINE is to bring down the weight bw 970-1150kgees and increase thrust equivalent to GEF414 , and if it adds thrust of 100kN, the thrust to weight ratio will be around 9:1 THEN IT will be same like F414 and EU200 and better than M88. But if the Trishul trident's Prasun once said that Indian and French will develop 2nd gen SCB is true, then the flat rated thrust can be expected equivalent to EJ200 and max thrust could go up to 95 kN, then it would be enough for AF tejas(dry thrust will also go up from 52kN, GEF414 has dry thrust of 57kN).

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[G10]

@Adioz

Bahi @Kshithij tu phekna band karde yaar!!! :blah:

I had asked him previously what quality weed does he take. Whatever he takes is of a1 quality no doubt. Kshithij batao yaar kaunsa nasha karte ho?

 

[Kshithij]

@Adioz

Bahi @Kshithij tu phekna band karde yaar!!! :blah:

Why do you think I am lying? GE F404 is not having rhenium SCB. Still it is having TET of 1720K. Al31F has TET of 1690K and it too has no rhenium. So, we can incorporate the same technique to get rhenium free engine with reduced TWR, fit enough for Kaveri

 

[Steven Rogers]

Why do you think I am lying? GE F404 is not having rhenium SCB. Still it is having TET of 1720K. Al31F has TET of 1690K and it too has no rhenium. So, we can incorporate the same technique to get rhenium free engine with reduced TWR, fit enough for Kaveri

Problem is GEF404 and AL31FP, both have thrust to weight 7.8:1 by calculation, the 100kN Kaveri will weigh around 1280kgees, it won't be an improvement, and IAF will simply dumb the plan of integrating it on LCA.

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[HariPrasad-1]

Russia gave 100% ToT for Al31F engines to India. Russia may also have given ToT for WS13 and WS10 engines which were replicas of RD93 and Al31F engines respectively.

Metallurgy is not given I think.

 

[cyclops]

I can't tell if this is good news or bad.

BTW, thin film sensors are basically thermocouples and strain gauges which are extremely thin and can measure the strain and temperature of the superalloys facing the extreme conditions in the turbofan powerplant.

The very first project on the pic below.