Kaveri Engine

rudresh

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Let me clear some doubts

Kaveri is a flat rated engine but not a variable cycle engine. The consept of variable cycle is very very complex and Kaveri doesn't have any such thing.

Kaveri is flat rated means it will give the same thrust irrespective of the altitude and environmental conditions.

The engine in Indian climatic conditions loses thrust in hot and high conditions. So the Kaveri was made to give the same thrust at all the altitudes by either increasing the thrust at high altitudes by increasing the bypass and rpm and decreasing it at lower altitudes by decreasing the bypass and rpm. This will make the engine a fuel guzzler at low altitude and effecient at high altitude but on the other hand will increase the engine life.

So that it is only for Kaveri engine we will have a bypass range and hence Kaveri engine having a bypass of 0.16 as on wiki (now above 0.22) is not correct. If we remove that flat rating concept it will give more thrust but will be on a high performance mode always. For now it is in balanced mode.

Hence the bypass for Kaveri engine is lower and is helpful in in more ways. May be in only performance mode it can be 0.3 or may be slightly more.
 
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Kshithij

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No no their M88 4 eco engine gives 90 kn with small afterburner section. If the core is same and afterburner is replaced with a bigger Kaveri afterburner then both thrust and bypass will increase and this might have happened.

If Kaveri engines core i.e kabini if would have been developed then it would have been a big tom tom from DRDO which we were all expecting.

French have stabbed us on our back by developing their next engine using our money and will extract our money for the core on which we will not be having any knowledge or able to develop on our own without french. We will pay for this engine which in my opinion is a Bastard son.

DRDO have fallen on their face for the french trick.Though the engine will be much better than the M88 4 eco will not be indian completely and cannot be called indian child.

I hope we will get the core engine tech and manufacturing tech for the money that we have paid the french.
Same core can't produce 90kN. After burner also has to come via the same core. So, the 50/90kN scenario is hocus pocus. The size of the core limits the thrust. Period.
Let me clear some doubts

Kaveri is a flat rated engine but not a variable cycle engine. The consept of variable cycle is very very complex and Kaveri doesn't have any such thing.

Kaveri is flat rated means it will give the same thrust irrespective of the altitude and environmental conditions.

The engine in Indian climatic conditions loses thrust in hot and high conditions. So the Kaveri was made to give the same thrust at all the altitudes by either increasing the thrust at high altitudes by increasing the bypass and rpm and decreasing it at lower altitudes by decreasing the bypass and rpm. This will make the engine a fuel guzzler at low altitude and effecient at high altitude but on the other hand will increase the engine life.

So that it is only for Kaveri engine we will have a bypass range and hence Kaveri engine having a bypass of 0.16 as on wiki (now above 0.22) is not correct. If we remove that flat rating concept it will give more thrust but will be on a high performance mode always. For now it is in balanced mode.

Hence the bypass for Kaveri engine is lower and is helpful in in more ways. May be in only performance mode it can be 0.3 or may be slightly more.
Kaveri is flat rated variable cycle engine. Variable cycle means that bypass can be adjusted as per requirements
 

Steven Rogers

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Let me clear some doubts

Kaveri is a flat rated engine but not a variable cycle engine. The consept of variable cycle is very very complex and Kaveri doesn't have any such thing.

Kaveri is flat rated means it will give the same thrust irrespective of the altitude and environmental conditions.

The engine in Indian climatic conditions loses thrust in hot and high conditions. So the Kaveri was made to give the same thrust at all the altitudes by either increasing the thrust at high altitudes by increasing the bypass and rpm and decreasing it at lower altitudes by decreasing the bypass and rpm. This will make the engine a fuel guzzler at low altitude and effecient at high altitude but on the other hand will increase the engine life.

So that it is only for Kaveri engine we will have a bypass range and hence Kaveri engine having a bypass of 0.16 as on wiki (now above 0.22) is not correct. If we remove that flat rating concept it will give more thrust but will be on a high performance mode always. For now it is in balanced mode.

Hence the bypass for Kaveri engine is lower and is helpful in in more ways. May be in only performance mode it can be 0.3 or may be slightly more.
Great you know more than the developers and their research papers, probably they should ask you whether to keep these words "Variable cycle engine" with Kaveri on their official website.

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Steven Rogers

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Wow, that is the funniest story I have ever hear. Are you high?
Someone who has little to do with offset clause and understands little what the offsets are really are can be a bit ignorant to ignore a business which is made.

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cyclops

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Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets

While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.

As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.

While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.

After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.

Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.


As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.

Greater thrust needed

However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.

It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.

So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.

This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.

However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.

Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp?params=LzIwMTcvMDQvMTkvNTg0NTIz
 

Kshithij

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Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets

While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.

As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.

While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.

After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.

Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.


As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.

Greater thrust needed

However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.

It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.

So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.

This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.

However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.

Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp?params=LzIwMTcvMDQvMTkvNTg0NTIz
This is another fake news. Why post such things? India is making Al31F engine that has 80/125kN thrust at 1550kg weight and you are saying that India needs consultants from Snecma to finish 70-80kN worthless engine?

You don't seem to understand the meaning of flat rating. Kaveri is flat rated at 84kN thrust. It can go higher
 

Kshithij

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Al 31F is a fuel guzzler engine and it has other issues also so Russia is developing another engine called as item 30. Are they sorted out these issues?
Item 30 is AL41F and that is 5th generation engine for FGFA, not 4-4.5generation engine for Tejas. India needs non rhenium based engine so that the plane can be mass manufactured easily.

Al31F is not fuel guzzler. It has higher efficiency than F100 or F110 engine per KN thrust. The Su30 is a heavy plane and hence relative to other planes India has, it is a fuel guzzler. However, Su30 compared to F15 fares well despite being heavier than F15.

Also, I must mention that India already makes RD33 engine in HAL for MiG29 UPG. This is in addition to Al31F. So, the idea that India will make a 70-80kN third-class Kaveri engine is simply ruled out. India might as well use RD33 engine instead which will be better.

That is why I said that the news is fake.
 

rudresh

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This is another fake news. Why post such things? India is making Al31F engine that has 80/125kN thrust at 1550kg weight and you are saying that India needs consultants from Snecma to finish 70-80kN worthless engine?

You don't seem to understand the meaning of flat rating. Kaveri is flat rated at 84kN thrust. It can go higher
First tell what do u mean by worthless.......on seeing your comment you seem to have zero knowledge on an aeroengine.

Don't comment if u don't know something ......don't degrade simply because u don't know the significance or effort that has been put to get here.

Kaveri is much better than Al 31FP in lot of departments .........

If not please substantiate how it is worthless.............
 
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Kshithij

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First tell what do u mean by worthless.......on seeing your comment you seem to have zero knowledge on an aeroengine.

Don't comment if u don't know something ......don't degrade simply because u don't know the significance or effort that has been put to get here.

Kaveri is much better than Al 31FP in lot of departments .........

If not please substantiate how it is worthless.............
The 70-80kN Kaveri is worthless as India already makes Rd33 with lower weight and higher thrust. Making Kaveri engine of 70-80kN is meaningless. So, I called it as FAKE NEWS.

By the way, I did not say Kaveri is worthless but that 70-80kN engine mentioned in this fake news is worthless. Kaveri engine will be 90-100kN engine. It will be better than RD33.

Just read properly before reacting
 

Armand2REP

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The 70-80kN Kaveri is worthless as India already makes Rd33 with lower weight and higher thrust. Making Kaveri engine of 70-80kN is meaningless. So, I called it as FAKE NEWS.

By the way, I did not say Kaveri is worthless but that 70-80kN engine mentioned in this fake news is worthless. Kaveri engine will be 90-100kN engine. It will be better than RD33.

Just read properly before reacting
So India makes RD-33 and AL-31 now? So why hasn't DRDO just done like the Chinese and design their fighters around Russian engines since India already makes them? That would be the logical step instead of relying on Americans who can sanction at any time. The US is even ready to sanction a NATO member for buying S-400s.
 

Kshithij

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So India makes RD-33 and AL-31 now? So why hasn't DRDO just done like the Chinese and design their fighters around Russian engines since India already makes them? That would be the logical step instead of relying on Americans who can sanction at any time. The US is even ready to sanction a NATO member for buying S-400s.
Because India wanted to make Kaveri engine. F404 is just unforeseen circumstances and temporary. Not more than a couple dozen planes will be on that. Also, Kaveri will eventually replace it.

RD33 is low powere, excessively lengthy engine. Al31F is heavy engine and not for light fighters.
 

abingdonboy

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Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets

While India has managed to create a fourth-generation jet fighter, it is yet to perfect a low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) engine that can power an aircraft of this class. Indeed, without mastering contemporary jet engine technology, India’s objective of becoming a true aerospace power will remain unfulfilled.

As such, after years of domestic effort by the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to develop the Kaveri LBTF engine on its own, India is now turning towards foreign handholding to modify the existing design in order to make it flightworthy.

While the current collaborative effort is limited in scope, a much bigger programme is needed to bring India up to speed in jet engine technology. It must be noted that China is investing very heavily in this domain and will likely steal a march over India if the latter does not do the same.

After some Rs 2,133 crores in expenditure and a couple of decades of development, GTRE’s Kaveri has not yet met its design goals in their entirety. As opposed to a targeted wet thrust level of 81 kilo newtons (KN), the current standard of preparation (SoP) prototypes manage 7-8% less than that figure.

SoP prototypes have achieved dry thrust goals though having demonstrated about 52 KN without afterburner. However, current Kaveri SoP prototypes are not flight capable given their tendency to stall in certain regimes, besides other reliability issues. It has been clear for a while now that foreign expertise is needed to modify the existing SoP level design to make it flightworthy.

This is precisely why the DRDO has engaged France’s Safran Aircraft Engines (Snecma) to perform a design audit on the Kaveri. At the moment, Snecma is preparing a detailed report outlining the design changes needed to create flightworthy Kaveri prototypes.

Once Snecma’s report is ready, GTRE expects to get the go-ahead for the next phase of work that will involve modifying existing SoP prototypes and testing them, with a view to creating new prototypes that can be integrated with an actual flight capable airframe. Snecma will also be a consultant for aircraft integration activities.


As it turns out, GTRE is yet to access some Rs 500 crore in funds that were approved years ago by New Delhi for aircraft integration work as part of the overall outlay for the Kaveri programme. Now that GTRE is looking to actually fly a Tejas test vehicle using a Kaveri engine, it is likely to write to the Centre to disburse this sum.

It seems GTRE will first incorporate Snecma’s recommended design changes onto three existing SoP Kaveri prototypes called K6, K8 and K9. These will be tested both on GTRE’s testbed and on a flying testbed at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Russia.

After which, a few refined prototypes will be built that are likely to meet the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification’s (CEMILAC) reliability standards and receive certification for a limited number of flights on board a Tejas class aircraft.

One of these engines post-CEMILAC clearance will be integrated with a Tejas prototype and some 30-40 sorties will be conducted to demonstrate India’s ability to build a LBTF in the 70-80 KN class. GTRE expects to accomplish all this by Aero India 2019.

Greater thrust needed

However, an engine with this level of thrust is inadequate to power even current combat capable Tejas variants, not to mention future ones. Indeed, the Tejas MK-2 design, given its much greater maximum take-off weight will need a jet engine in the 90 KN wet thrust class.

It is felt that the work done on the Kaveri programme should be taken forward by enlisting Snecma’s help to create a Kaveri-derived engine in the 90 KN category that would be compatible with the Tejas. To be compatible with the Tejas, this engine would have to retain the dimensions of the existing Kaveri design with compressor and turbine sizes remaining unchanged.

So, the chief way in which a similar sized derivative can be uprated to 90 KN would be by having an engine core that can withstand much higher turbine entry temperatures. This, in turn, would require the core to be made up of different materials, such as next generation titanium alloys, from what make up the current Kaveri engine core called Kabini.

This undertaking will not prove cheap though. Dr K Tamilmani, former Director General of DRDO’s Aeronautics cluster, estimates that this effort may cost Rs 10,000 crores and take a decade to complete if work began now.

However, given that India is likely to import engines worth several multiples of that figure in the next 15 years or so, the expense could well be worth it, since the expertise gained could allow India to indigenise several classes of jet engines, besides delivering an indigenous LBTF for the Indian Air Force’s Tejas fleet.

Incidentally, the Chinese have already understood the critical importance of being able to design and build modern jet engines and have apparently engaged thousands of technical personnel in a multi-billion dollar effort to achieve the same.

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp?params=LzIwMTcvMDQvMTkvNTg0NTIz
Not sure if this is ignorance or deliberate disinformation but it’s totally wrong. Stating that they are still at the consultation phase is insane and that they will go from the pre-consultation to having completed 30-40 test flights on an LCA in under a year from now......
 

Armand2REP

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Because India wanted to make Kaveri engine. F404 is just unforeseen circumstances and temporary. Not more than a couple dozen planes will be on that. Also, Kaveri will eventually replace it.

RD33 is low powere, excessively lengthy engine. Al31F is heavy engine and not for light fighters.
So why wouldn't you design fighters around engines you make yourself? Self sufficiency is far more important than a few design changes. I think the answer is India doesn't actually make the engine core.
 

Babloo Singh

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So why wouldn't you design fighters around engines you make yourself? Self sufficiency is far more important than a few design changes. I think the answer is India doesn't actually make the engine core.
They designed Tejas around Kaveri..... than Kaveri didn't happen.... so GE 404 was used.... but it took more space... and tejas ended up with weight problem some due to design others due to addition of systems & features.... so range & performance effected..... Solution create more space & shift to GE414 for more power... MK-2... Difficulties & Vested Interests kept changing goal post's original plan was self sufficiency.

Probably Parrikar, put the team on original solution... Go back to Kaveri & shed some weight... push Kaveri output up and we will be there.... lets see if safaranized kaveri comes up well in MK-1A as this is fastest route to self sufficiency.
 

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