Kaveri Engine

Bhoot Pishach

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EJ200 is 90kN engine and is at highest efficiency. F414 has to be more efficient than F119 if the thrust has to go to 110kN. It is simply impossible for Kaveri to become 110kN engine without increase in size. F414 is extremely efficient engine and one must not expect a more efficient one in the same size.
India can make a new engine using experience from Kaveri development to get 110kN engine but not increase the Kaveri to that extent. Also, I have told earlier that India intends to make flat rated engine which means there is a requirement for 125kN peak thrust.
Then forget about F-414 for AMCA, it can never be FLAT-RATED 110KN.

You mean ADA-IAF are committing BLUNDER for picking F-414. Because F-414 will be Max Wet Thrust 110KN not FLAT RATED-110KN (Wet Thrust 125KN).:) (These are STRAIGHT FIGURES, all as been professed by you for Flat Rate).

Infact, according to you ADA-IAF, for AMCA must be useing PW-F100 which is having Max Wet Thrust of 127KN (shall have Flat Rate - 110KN according to you).

So ADA-IAF are committing BLUNDER even before the PROJECT STAGE of AMCA.

Mind you its only Kaveri which is rubbing shoulders with GE-F404/F414 family.

F404 - 53.9 KN/85 KN

F414 - 57.8 KN/97.9 KN

Kaveri - 52 KN/ 82 KN (Current performance) (and targeted with current technological parameters available with India - 90 KN).

M88-2 - 50 KN / 75 KN
 
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Adioz

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How do you know that GTRE is interested in rhenium? Why is it not possible that GTRE may be using CMC coating? Rhenium super alloy can be subsituted with CMC coating or some other super alloy i don't know of
Source please. AFAIK, CMC is a futuristic substitute for superalloys, and is not being used in current engines. If GTRE was pursuing this, they would not be dishing out these:-
Designing Turbine Blades for Fatigue and Creep
^See point number 8: "Single Crystal alloys, the key to high temperatures"

As far as superalloys are concerned, Rhenium is the only route available for increasing TET beyond what is achieved by first gen SCB.

What escalation controls? What are you speaking of? Why should there be an escalation control? Who controls that? Who told you that modern wars are to be fought with existing pieces on the board? Why do you think war can't be calculated to be fought 3-4 years in advance and then build up rapidly? Give proper reasons. Don't shoot and scoot your opinions.
Look at the duration of high-intensity wars India has fought since independence and think about how much early warning we got each time. Also consider that your country is rarely ever going to be attacking party in war. Early warning is going to be limited for us. Even if you can predict a war one year in advance, you cannot manage to make more than the number of fighters that are already in the manufacturing line. It takes two years to make a modern fighter. And to say nothing of the time required to train additional pilots of these new planes. Even ramping up wartime production of spares and ammo is a big challenge for a country like ours. Don't have unrealistic expectations. We are not the Red Army of WWII who managed to raise 10 armies in one winter.

Already discussed the same with you many times in the past. I don't want to derail the thread any further with off-topic content........If you are dissatisfied with my answers, then agree to disagree. And keep imagining things like GTRE has abandoned Rhenium-based improvements in superalloys or that we plan to make 1000 planes in two years in anticipation for a war that might happen two years in the future. I won't stop you from fantasizing.
 

Kshithij

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Then forget about F-414 for AMCA, it can never be FLAT-RATED 110KN.

You mean ADA-IAF are committing BLUNDER for picking F-414. Because F-414 will be Max Wet Thrust 110KN not FLAT RATED-110KN (Wet Thrust 125KN).:) (These are STRAIGHT FIGURES, all as been professed by you for Flat Rate).

Infact, according to you ADA-IAF, for AMCA must be useing PW-F100 which is having Max Wet Thrust of 127KN (shall have Flat Rate - 110KN according to you).

So ADA-IAF are committing BLUNDER even before the PROJECT STAGE of AMCA.

Mind you its only Kaveri which is rubbing shoulders with GE-F404/F414 family.

F404 - 53.9 KN/85 KN

F414 - 57.8 KN/97.9 KN

Kaveri - 52 KN/ 82 KN (Current performance) (and targeted with current technological parameters available with India - 90 KN).

M88-2 - 50 KN / 75 KN
Kaver is flat rated to be similar to F404. If the lat rating is removed, it is similar to F414. That is, the peak thrust of kaveri is 100kN but it is controlled by flat rating to F404 level to improve engine life.

AMCA will not use F414 except for technology demonstration, first flight and initial tests with special series production. F44 is underpowered and can never fly AMCA. The F414 EPE is just a ream and not yet completed. No need to think about it at all. AMCA being a new platfor, needs a reliable engine to initially test the flight aerodynamics. Unreliable engine or engine that is new poses a risk of getting a snag and makes it harder to identify the problem.


Source please. AFAIK, CMC is a futuristic substitute for superalloys, and is not being used in current engines. If GTRE was pursuing this, they would not be dishing out these:-
Designing Turbine Blades for Fatigue and Creep
^See point number 8: "Single Crystal alloys, the key to high temperatures"

As far as superalloys are concerned, Rhenium is the only route available for increasing TET beyond what is achieved by first gen SCB.
You gave a 1988 publication. Even there there was no mention of rhenium. Also, rheniun SCB only came into use in 1986 by USA. So, this 1988 article is unlikely to be based on the rhenium SCB.

I gave a screenshot o HAL website that they have a method to coat the blades. Even a coating of 0.2mm will increase TET by 300 degree celsius. This was also a publication of the 1980s. There is no need to go for full CMC blades. just a coating will be enough.

Look at the duration of high-intensity wars India has fought since independence and think about how much early warning we got each time. Also consider that your country is rarely ever going to be attacking party in war. Early warning is going to be limited for us.
There is no point taking just a small timeframe and making meaningless predictions. There has been no war since WW2 of a big scale. Most of the wars were localised in nature. That does not mean there won't be any war in future. 70-80 years is nothing.

Who told you that india won't attack anyone ever in the future? Wars by wise people are fought according to the time and place o one's convenience, not enemy's.
Even if you can predict a war one year in advance, you cannot manage to make more than the number of fighters that are already in the manufacturing line. It takes two years to make a modern fighter. And to say nothing of the time required to train additional pilots of these new planes. Even ramping up wartime production of spares and ammo is a big challenge for a country like ours.
The time to make one Tejas is 7 months. So, it is perfectly possible to ramp up. 1971 war was a good example of getting more than 8 months for preparations. I don't see where is the challenge in doing anything. Which point is the challenge? Why is it a challenge? Only if technology is lacking, war production can't be ramped up.

I have said this before- calculated war from our side is also a possibility. If India wants to initiate a war after 3 years, india can very well ramp up in advance. Setting up plants with known specifications is not at all difficult. India is already one of the leading exporter of cars. India makes 1.8 crore 2 wheelers and 45 lakh cars in addition to other vehicles like tractors, trucks, 3 wheelers etc to a total of 3 crore vehicles. Making a few lakh military vehicles should never be a problem with the available infrastructure.
Don't have unrealistic expectations. We are not the Red Army of WWII who managed to raise 10 armies in one winter.
We can recruit 10 times as much as red army did in one month. Don't underestimate. Red army is nothing in front of India.
Already discussed the same with you many times in the past. I don't want to derail the thread any further with off-topic content........If you are dissatisfied with my answers, then agree to disagree. And keep imagining things like GTRE has abandoned Rhenium-based improvements in superalloys or that we plan to make 1000 planes in two years in anticipation for a war that might happen two years in the future. I won't stop you from fantasizing.
Don't speak from your behind. World is not made by you and don't imagine your own scenarios. Always seek the most appropriate result oriented action path instead of being whimsical.

Rhenium is very hard to obtain. If you have any evidence that GTRE is using rhenium, please give. the file you gave had no rhenium scb but Fe Ni Ti and Al only.
 

Bhoot Pishach

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Kaver is flat rated to be similar to F404. If the lat rating is removed, it is similar to F414. That is, the peak thrust of kaveri is 100kN but it is controlled by flat rating to F404 level to improve engine life.

AMCA will not use F414 except for technology demonstration, first flight and initial tests with special series production. F44 is underpowered and can never fly AMCA. The F414 EPE is just a ream and not yet completed. No need to think about it at all. AMCA being a new platfor, needs a reliable engine to initially test the flight aerodynamics. Unreliable engine or engine that is new poses a risk of getting a snag and makes it harder to identify the problem.
Leave it you dont know any thing about Jet Engines.

Bye
 

Adioz

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^This is the image you posted. It mentions in point number 8: "Special furnaces for coating the engine parts". No mention of coating of Turbine blades. If you cannot post a proper source, don't post at all.
Once Kaveri is flying, and they declare that they are using Nickel-based superalloys, we can all be certain that they are using Rhenium. Till then, you can imagine whatever suits you.

There is no point taking just a small timeframe and making meaningless predictions. There has been no war since WW2 of a big scale. Most of the wars were localised in nature. That does not mean there won't be any war in future. 70-80 years is nothing.

Who told you that india won't attack anyone ever in the future? Wars by wise people are fought according to the time and place o one's convenience, not enemy's.
The time to make one Tejas is 7 months. So, it is perfectly possible to ramp up. 1971 war was a good example of getting more than 8 months for preparations. I don't see where is the challenge in doing anything. Which point is the challenge? Why is it a challenge? Only if technology is lacking, war production can't be ramped up.

I have said this before- calculated war from our side is also a possibility. If India wants to initiate a war after 3 years, india can very well ramp up in advance. Setting up plants with known specifications is not at all difficult. India is already one of the leading exporter of cars. India makes 1.8 crore 2 wheelers and 45 lakh cars in addition to other vehicles like tractors, trucks, 3 wheelers etc to a total of 3 crore vehicles. Making a few lakh military vehicles should never be a problem with the available infrastructure.
We can recruit 10 times as much as red army did in one month. Don't underestimate. Red army is nothing in front of India.
Don't speak from your behind. World is not made by you and don't imagine your own scenarios. Always seek the most appropriate result oriented action path instead of being whimsical.
I am not the one talking from my behind here. I have had enough of you nonsense @Vijyes . I've had this discussion with you so many times in the past. Just agree to disagree and stop derailing this thread.
 

Kshithij

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^This is the image you posted. It mentions in point number 8: "Special furnaces for coating the engine parts". No mention of coating of Turbine blades. If you cannot post a proper source, don't post at all.
Once Kaveri is flying, and they declare that they are using Nickel-based superalloys, we can all be certain that they are using Rhenium. Till then, you can imagine whatever suits you.


I am not the one talking from my behind here. I have had enough of you nonsense @Vijyes . I've had this discussion with you so many times in the past. Just agree to disagree and stop derailing this thread.
Look at the last point of screenshot -MAP coating equipment for coating of blades.

Did you see it now? It is getting embarrassing.

Agree to disagree is bullshit. Give me proper reason with data to prove that it is not 'possible' (I am not speaking of need but possibility).
 

ezsasa

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I have said this before- India does not need funds from France. I don't even know what France can give as all technology is Indian and France is not manufacturing or developing anything. Why would India agree for French investment in things which India does not need?

Offset could also be charged as extra from India and instead given technology transfers of some items. I am not sure of the terms of the offsets. But, I don't see any need to get offset in Kaveri engine. Maybe a higher powered engine for AMCA can be designed with the offset.
Usually these kind of deals are not about the equipment itself, they are usually investment into the future.

If Kaveri does succeed, you will have French MIC which is already integrated into various country’s military sales at your disposal for sales and marketing.
 

Armand2REP

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Usually these kind of deals are not about the equipment itself, they are usually investment into the future.

If Kaveri does succeed, you will have French MIC which is already integrated into various country’s military sales at your disposal for sales and marketing.
A Tejas Mk2 powered by Safranised Kaveri, RBE2 mini, and armed with some French missiles would give the French state enough impetus to market on behalf of India. It is not like we make M2000 anymore that would compete against ourselves.
 

Kshithij

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Usually these kind of deals are not about the equipment itself, they are usually investment into the future.

If Kaveri does succeed, you will have French MIC which is already integrated into various country’s military sales at your disposal for sales and marketing.
Why does India need French MIC? Why should French MIC not be replaced by Indian MIC? By the same logic, why does French not need Indian MIC?

India can market its goods by itself. If India is buying goods from France to market it, what is the point in the first place?

A Tejas Mk2 powered by Safranised Kaveri, RBE2 mini, and armed with some French missiles would give the French state enough impetus to market on behalf of India. It is not like we make M2000 anymore that would compete against ourselves.
Why exactly does India need French state to market on behalf of India? How about Rafale having UTTAM radar, Astra BVR and Kaveri engine being marketed by Indian state?


This is the most insane logic I have ever got. Even people high on weeds don't speak like this!
 

ezsasa

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A Tejas Mk2 powered by Safranised Kaveri, RBE2 mini, and armed with some French missiles would give the French state enough impetus to market on behalf of India. It is not like we make M2000 anymore that would compete against ourselves.
More over French industry has made much money on this trip, they made deals tens of billions of $ on this macron trip,from spice jet deal to trains. Because of the language gap, over media hasn’t grasped this part. They made good deals.
 

binayak95

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Why does India need French MIC? Why should French MIC not be replaced by Indian MIC? By the same logic, why does French not need Indian MIC?

India can market its goods by itself. If India is buying goods from France to market it, what is the point in the first place?


Why exactly does India need French state to market on behalf of India? How about Rafale having UTTAM radar, Astra BVR and Kaveri engine being marketed by Indian state?


This is the most insane logic I have ever got. Even people high on weeds don't speak like this!
@Armand2REP is speaking at a level beyond what you are looking at.

Say, ten years down the line (since Tejas Mk2) is going to take atleast this amount of time, to be close to IOC, who knows just how close India and France will be?

What @Armand2REP is visioning is a state of affairs where nations who seek to contain the rise of China seriously won't be having a military that is built such that they can be plugged into each other's units in a modular fashion? This is already feasible today with our navies and to an extent, our armies, why can't the same be done for our air forces? If, we build them ourselves as Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA projects aim to?
 

Kshithij

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More over French industry has made much money on this trip, they made deals tens of billions of $ on this macron trip,from spice jet deal to trains. Because of the language gap, over media hasn’t grasped this part. They made good deals.
Money gained by France is money lost by India. India gets planes which are only usable in skirmishes without any control or ability to increase production according to needs. Trojan virus is also a possibility.
 

Kshithij

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@Armand2REP is speaking at a level beyond what you are looking at.

Say, ten years down the line (since Tejas Mk2) is going to take atleast this amount of time, to be close to IOC, who knows just how close India and France will be?

What @Armand2REP is visioning is a state of affairs where nations who seek to contain the rise of China seriously won't be having a military that is built such that they can be plugged into each other's units in a modular fashion? This is already feasible today with our navies and to an extent, our armies, why can't the same be done for our air forces? If, we build them ourselves as Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA projects aim to?
The problem here is:
1) In 1990 Kashmir genocide, it was France's ally USA who supported Pakistan. How do we know that France won't turn its back and enter into an alliance with Pakistan again or China or any other nation by dumping India? We can't forget the role of NATO in Kashmir, right?
2) Next, why should India be reliant on France for spare parts or additional orders or source codes for integration of new systems? If India has its own plane, all this will be easy
3) If there is a need to be an alliance, then France will have to give ToT for every single aspect like Russia has given for Su30 MKI

Also, about Tejas MK2, it is coming by 2025. It is not a serious upgrade. Though fuselage is enlarged, it is still less than 10% change. The overall design is also similar. So, the changes in FBW will be minimal. The avionics and other subsystems are already developed for MK1A and they are unlikely to change. The Kaveri engine is also 100kN, hence engine problem is solved. Overall, MK2 is likely to get FOC by 2025. You must have mistaken AMCA for MK2. AMCA will come by 2030.
 

ezsasa

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Money gained by France is money lost by India. India gets planes which are only usable in skirmishes without any control or ability to increase production according to needs. Trojan virus is also a possibility.
Not necessarily in these cases i have mentioned. For example spice jet engine deal will have cost savings on maintenance for an indian company and alstom train engine deal is part of govt initiative to buy train engines for dedicated freight corridor.
 

Armand2REP

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Why exactly does India need French state to market on behalf of India? How about Rafale having UTTAM radar, Astra BVR and Kaveri engine being marketed by Indian state?

This is the most insane logic I have ever got. Even people high on weeds don't speak like this!
Why does Eurofighter form a four nation consortium, to leverage the political clout of all four nations. If there is not enough French content there is no reason for us to market on behalf of India. We are pitching both the engine and radar for Mk2 which are both designed specifically for Tejas. Marketing this would be a much better solution than GE engines that require US export controls. We could also pitch weapons that would make our suppliers happy and add it to our marketing budget and portfolio of products.
 

binayak95

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The problem here is:
1) In 1990 Kashmir genocide, it was France's ally USA who supported Pakistan. How do we know that France won't turn its back and enter into an alliance with Pakistan again or China or any other nation by dumping India? We can't forget the role of NATO in Kashmir, right?
2) Next, why should India be reliant on France for spare parts or additional orders or source codes for integration of new systems? If India has its own plane, all this will be easy
3) If there is a need to be an alliance, then France will have to give ToT for every single aspect like Russia has given for Su30 MKI

Also, about Tejas MK2, it is coming by 2025. It is not a serious upgrade. Though fuselage is enlarged, it is still less than 10% change. The overall design is also similar. So, the changes in FBW will be minimal. The avionics and other subsystems are already developed for MK1A and they are unlikely to change. The Kaveri engine is also 100kN, hence engine problem is solved. Overall, MK2 is likely to get FOC by 2025. You must have mistaken AMCA for MK2. AMCA will come by 2030.
1)Read up on cold war and post cold war history a bit. France and the USA don't see eye to eye always. France and the UK did the whole Suez crisis on their own, in complete opposition to the US of A (with Israeli involvement of course)

And USA was France's ally even post Pokhran when France supported India. the Rafale was selected over the Typhoon precisely because France has never backstabbed us. (and Typhoon has some serious issues, bro. You think SU-30 availability is bad, look at the Typhoons)

2) talking about integration means France will be dependent on us too for operational capabilities. So, moot point.

3) Who the fuck says Russia has given India Full ToT. The Goddamn source codes are locked. we were expressively forbidden from integrating foreign missiles and sensors. Which is why we are going for Indian mission computers and mix and match for Israeli and French avionics/sensors. Russians have been screwing with us for quite some time. Remember Tank-EX?
 

Kshithij

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Not necessarily in these cases i have mentioned. For example spice jet engine deal will have cost savings on maintenance for an indian company and alstom train engine deal is part of govt initiative to buy train engines for dedicated freight corridor.
Alstom engines are fully made in India and hence the asset is permanently created. The registration of the company is also Indian. Similarly, technology which India absolutely lacks, like civilian aircraft engines, the partial assembly jobs are also a good deal. But for technology which India has mastered to good extent and is in the last leg, it is meaningless to import. It is not favourable trade


Why does Eurofighter form a four nation consortium, to leverage the political clout of all four nations. If there is not enough French content there is no reason for us to market on behalf of India. We are pitching both the engine and radar for Mk2 which are both designed specifically for Tejas. Marketing this would be a much better solution than GE engines that require US export controls. We could also pitch weapons that would make our suppliers happy and add it to our marketing budget and portfolio of products.
India will instead use UTTAM radar, Kaveri engine and fully Indian avionics suite for marketing to others. Why should India use French parts in haste when Indian part is almost about to be ready?

Before mentioning Typhoon, it is important to note that France is not part of the Typhoon but instead makes Rafale.

It is definitely good for France to have Tejas with French parts. But it is not good for India. What is there in marketing that India can't do that French can?
 

Kshithij

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1)Read up on cold war and post cold war history a bit. France and the USA don't see eye to eye always. France and the UK did the whole Suez crisis on their own, in complete opposition to the US of A (with Israeli involvement of course)

And USA was France's ally even post Pokhran when France supported India. the Rafale was selected over the Typhoon precisely because France has never backstabbed us. (and Typhoon has some serious issues, bro. You think SU-30 availability is bad, look at the Typhoons)

2) talking about integration means France will be dependent on us too for operational capabilities. So, moot point.

3) Who the fuck says Russia has given India Full ToT. The Goddamn source codes are locked. we were expressively forbidden from integrating foreign missiles and sensors. Which is why we are going for Indian mission computers and mix and match for Israeli and French avionics/sensors. Russians have been screwing with us for quite some time. Remember Tank-EX?
1) India may or may not ally with France. France is not a natural ally of India irrespective of cold war or not. I don't see a reason to be permanently dependent on France instead of having full self reliability.
2) France already has operational Rafale which means France will be dependent on us only partially and that too in mission specific details
3) Russia may not have given the radar for manufacturing in india but the fact that India can integrate Israeli avionics, later SAMTEL avionics, Astra BVR and Brahmos without the support of Russia shows that codes were also available with India. Russia gave Al31F engine for manufacturing in India, from raw material stage. Tell me who else will give such technology?


Russia has forbidden from integrating western missiles in fear that they may have trojan that will peek into the system. But that is only a mutual understanding. If India can integrate Astra or Brahmos, it can also integrate any other missile. India does not do it out of trust and mutual respect.
 

Armand2REP

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India will instead use UTTAM radar, Kaveri engine and fully Indian avionics suite for marketing to others. Why should India use French parts in haste when Indian part is almost about to be ready?

Before mentioning Typhoon, it is important to note that France is not part of the Typhoon but instead makes Rafale.

It is definitely good for France to have Tejas with French parts. But it is not good for India. What is there in marketing that India can't do that French can?
From a marketing perspective, international buyers are far more likely to want a proven RBE2 rather than an experimental UTTAM. Your domestic air-frames will be taking several year to overcome that hurdle. RBE2 is proven years ago and improves capability every new batch and is also included with weapons ready to go. If you go with GE engines you can forget exports, your potential clients are not the ones interested in US export controls. If you really want to export Tejas Mk2, the French tie up is really the best way to go as you get proven radar with integrated weapons package, sovereign engine sales with the political clout of a UNSC seat and leader of an EU block.
 

Steven Rogers

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From a marketing perspective, international buyers are far more likely to want a proven RBE2 rather than an experimental UTTAM. Your domestic air-frames will be taking several year to overcome that hurdle. RBE2 is proven years ago and improves capability every new batch and is also included with weapons ready to go. If you go with GE engines you can forget exports, your potential clients are not the ones interested in US export controls. If you really want to export Tejas Mk2, the French tie up is really the best way to go as you get proven radar with integrated weapons package, sovereign engine sales with the political clout of a UNSC seat and leader of an EU block.
Unless AESAR made under project Uttam is fielded in 100s of LCA Tejas. RBE2 is surely radar of choice until then.

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