Kaveri Engine

[akk]

The point here is that Kaveri is fully Indian engine with complete Indian manufacturing. India does not need money from France to make Kaveri. Also, France is incapable of using M88 core as the size of M88 is 27.5x139 inch diameter and length respectively whereas for Kaveri the dimensions are 35x154 inch. That is a serious size difference. So, unless you are suggesting that France will develop a new engine, it is meaningless to ask for French investment. If France develops a new engine for India, then the time taken will be 10-12 years. I have also pointed out several times that India is capable of making Al31F completely in India from raw material stage and the notion that India lacks blisk technology or metallurgy is absurd in the above post:

So, which investment are you expecting from France? Why?

Sire, we have heard several times that France has promised to invest 1billion dollar in kaveri program. It is meant to improve it, make it flight worthy and certify it. I don't know how and when they intend to do it. But any money spent in the process will be an investment and not a donation. Investing in kaveri project.... Means getting something in return, typically a partnership and sharing IP rights. What else can you give them back for their investment?
Offsets means investing money back in India, but its still their money.

 

[Armand2REP]

India has all the critical technology for MKI as ToT from Russia but there is a contractual obligation to buy some spares from Russian OEM. This is just as a symbol of trust towards Russia.

So Russia gave you 100% ToT to make it yourself, but you still buy parts from Russia as a symbol of trust?

 

[Kshithij]

So Russia gave you 100% ToT to make it yourself, but you still buy parts from Russia as a symbol of trust?

Russia gave all critical technology transfer but did not certify all the plants with OEM status. So, if India buys parts from those plants not certified by Russia, India will lose warranty.

So, it is about warranty (future upgrades) and trust, not lack of technology except in case of radar

 

[Kshithij]

Sire, we have heard several times that France has promised to invest 1billion dollar in kaveri program. It is meant to improve it, make it flight worthy and certify it. I don't know how and when they intend to do it. But any money spent in the process will be an investment and not a donation. Investing in kaveri project.... Means getting something in return, typically a partnership and sharing IP rights. What else can you give them back for their investment?
Offsets means investing money back in India, but its still their money.

I have said this before- India does not need funds from France. I don't even know what France can give as all technology is Indian and France is not manufacturing or developing anything. Why would India agree for French investment in things which India does not need?

Offset could also be charged as extra from India and instead given technology transfers of some items. I am not sure of the terms of the offsets. But, I don't see any need to get offset in Kaveri engine. Maybe a higher powered engine for AMCA can be designed with the offset.

 

[akk]

I have said this before- India does not need funds from France. I don't even know what France can give as all technology is Indian and France is not manufacturing or developing anything. Why would India agree for French investment in things which India does not need?

Offset could also be charged as extra from India and instead given technology transfers of some items. I am not sure of the terms of the offsets. But, I don't see any need to get offset in Kaveri engine. Maybe a higher powered engine for AMCA can be designed with the offset.

So as per your comments, France should have nothing to do with kaveri. In that case, it's fine. But if they are doing anything with kaveri, which is what most people believe, then it wouldn't be for free. So the question would be.... How are we paying them for their services? We could hire them.... Not sure if we have done it, not heard anywhere. The second is offset route, when they invest money as agreed in rafale-deal-signed.56201 deal.

 

[Adioz]

Yes, titanium machining is quite easy. There is nothing much about it. It may take a slightly longer time than other metals but still, the technique is similar.

Let me show you blisk manufacturing:

Not quite what I was saying. By raw-materials, I mean ores.

What I meant was that we do not yet manufacture Titanium parts of Al-31 in India from the ore stage. We might be machining some or all of the components from stock supplied by the Russians. Although that stock can be called "raw-material" for the machining stage, the stock itself is an intermediate product in the entire manufacturing process. So when someone says that "We can manufacture the engine from raw materials", it would mean that they could go from ore stage to final product on their own.

The first factory in India capable of making Titanium sponge from Titanium ores came online in 2016. Before that, mined titanium oxide (from Orrisa) used to be sent to China for further processing, and then we used to buy the sponge titanium, or Titanium alloys from China (and also Russia, Japan, etc). The new titanium sponge plant in India is still limited in its capacity. And even today, we are dependent on imports, although we will not be dependent for much longer.

The other part of what I was saying was how we have to source semi-finished components from Russia even after we have mastered a particular process from the raw-material to the final stage. The Russians have no incentive to do that.

BTW, I think we have derailed the thread enough. So we should stop.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Yes, titanium machining is quite easy. There is nothing much about it. It may take a slightly longer time than other metals but still, the technique is similar.

Let me show you blisk manufacturing:



That is not technology but raw material. Yes, the raw material may have to be imported. However, it is a part of the contract and is only enforced by trust. India can get raw material on its own too as and when needed as technology is in Indian hands



Russia is technically an ally of India. Russia did give technology for making RD33, RD25 engines for MiG21. India had made over 600 MiG 21 in 1970s-1980s completely in India. Russia also gave cryogenic engine to India for space launch vehicle for reverse engineering.

I am not sure if Al31F has SCB or has directionally solidified blades. It may be that Al41F has SCB while Al31F does not? Also, you are forgetting that the real reason for the strength is not just SCB but also Rhenium metal. I am not sure if India had rhenium access. The metal is too scarce.

Anyways, here is the official HAL statement that they already have SCB technology:
http://hal-india.com/Air Chief Calls/ND__85

AL31F has 2nd gen SCB technology, it's not been tot to HAL, The performance of new patented DMRL SCB was found to be better than the AL31F SCB.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Kshithij]

So as per your comments, France should have nothing to do with kaveri. In that case, it's fine. But if they are doing anything with kaveri, which is what most people believe, then it wouldn't be for free. So the question would be.... How are we paying them for their services? We could hire them.... Not sure if we have done it, not heard anywhere. The second is offset route, when they invest money as agreed in rafale-deal-signed.56201 deal.

The rumours are devoid of facts, mostly conspiracy theory to defame India by taking away the credit and giving it to France. The idea is to create a perception that India is a retarded country incapable of developing advanced technology and always needs western assistance.

I am giving you a solid reasoning - M88 is too small to fit in Kaveri. Also, France has no engine similar in size and capability to F414/Kaveri. It would be more believable if F414 technology was modified into Kaveri. M88 being modified for Kaveri is simply meaningless.

Obviously, if France invests, they will get the IP rights. That will be similar to India getting license production rights or even worse, partial imports.

Not quite what I was saying. By raw-materials, I mean ores.

What I meant was that we do not yet manufacture Titanium parts of Al-31 in India from the ore stage. We might be machining some or all of the components from stock supplied by the Russians. Although that stock can be called "raw-material" for the machining stage, the stock itself is an intermediate product in the entire manufacturing process. So when someone says that "We can manufacture the engine from raw materials", it would mean that they could go from ore stage to final product on their own.

The first factory in India capable of making Titanium sponge from Titanium ores came online in 2016. Before that, mined titanium oxide (from Orrisa) used to be sent to China for further processing, and then we used to buy the sponge titanium, or Titanium alloys from China (and also Russia, Japan, etc). The new titanium sponge plant in India is still limited in its capacity. And even today, we are dependent on imports, although we will not be dependent for much longer.

The other part of what I was saying was how we have to source semi-finished components from Russia even after we have mastered a particular process from the raw-material to the final stage. The Russians have no incentive to do that.

BTW, I think we have derailed the thread enough. So we should stop.

Raw material does not mean ore also includes the pure metal ingots. The first level processing of raw material to make it in a more compact and presentable form is also raw material. The reason being that the ore contains large amount of waste, dust and is powdery which makes it very difficult and fuel expensive to transport. For example, iron ore is a raw material but ordinary steel ingot can also be considered as raw material. However, high grade steel is not raw material.

Manufacturing from raw material doesn't mean just machining. Even alloying, welding, single crystal furnace are all part of the manufacturing.

I think you should be knowing that HAL can't be expected to have blast furnaces to extract metal from ore. HAL is a manufacturing company, not mining company.

AL31F has 2nd gen SCB technology, it's not been tot to HAL, The performance of new patented DMRL SCB was found to be better than the AL31F SCB.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

I am not sure of that. However, the Al31F performance is better than GE F110 and PW F100 engine used in F16 and F15. Al31F has similar thrust to weight as F404 used currently in Tejas.

Also, note that India does not have access to rhenium. So, the third generation SCB may be hard to obtain. The generation of SCB depends on rhenium content. Rhenium extraction in the world is only 50tons a year which is too low and all the production is booked by various countries in advance

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

The rumours are devoid of facts, mostly conspiracy theory to defame India by taking away the credit and giving it to France. The idea is to create a perception that India is a retarded country incapable of developing advanced technology and always needs western assistance.

I am giving you a solid reasoning - M88 is too small to fit in Kaveri. Also, France has no engine similar in size and capability to F414/Kaveri. It would be more believable if F414 technology was modified into Kaveri. M88 being modified for Kaveri is simply meaningless.

This is precisely why Safranised Kaveri is :bs:

All what is needed from Safran with respect to Kaveri is Debugging and Certification. The issue with Kaveri is, reheat oscillation in After Burner, along with some mass flow leakages, which we are not able to solve.

Safran itself had said "Kaveri is almost there only 20% work is needed to certify and fly".

Mostly Safran, it seams is interested to force India to commit for buying New or Uprated M88 engine, which will be in Class of F414+ i.e. 110KN category.

Hence we are seeing the tussle and negotiation going on, between both the concerned parties.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The rumours are devoid of facts, mostly conspiracy theory to defame India by taking away the credit and giving it to France. The idea is to create a perception that India is a retarded country incapable of developing advanced technology and always needs western assistance.

I am giving you a solid reasoning - M88 is too small to fit in Kaveri. Also, France has no engine similar in size and capability to F414/Kaveri. It would be more believable if F414 technology was modified into Kaveri. M88 being modified for Kaveri is simply meaningless.

Obviously, if France invests, they will get the IP rights. That will be similar to India getting license production rights or even worse, partial imports.



Raw material does not mean ore also includes the pure metal ingots. The first level processing of raw material to make it in a more compact and presentable form is also raw material. The reason being that the ore contains large amount of waste, dust and is powdery which makes it very difficult and fuel expensive to transport. For example, iron ore is a raw material but ordinary steel ingot can also be considered as raw material. However, high grade steel is not raw material.

Manufacturing from raw material doesn't mean just machining. Even alloying, welding, single crystal furnace are all part of the manufacturing.

I think you should be knowing that HAL can't be expected to have blast furnaces to extract metal from ore. HAL is a manufacturing company, not mining company.



I am not sure of that. However, the Al31F performance is better than GE F110 and PW F100 engine used in F16 and F15. Al31F has similar thrust to weight as F404 used currently in Tejas.

Also, note that India does not have access to rhenium. So, the third generation SCB may be hard to obtain. The generation of SCB depends on rhenium content. Rhenium extraction in the world is only 50tons a year which is too low and all the production is booked by various countries in advance

India don't produce SCB, Rehneuim content needed 3 percent on 2nd SCB, and 5 percent on 3rd gen SCB, and above 5 on 4th SCB.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[cyclops]

The rumours are devoid of facts, mostly conspiracy theory to defame India by taking away the credit and giving it to France. The idea is to create a perception that India is a retarded country incapable of developing advanced technology and always needs western assistance.

I am giving you a solid reasoning - M88 is too small to fit in Kaveri. Also, France has no engine similar in size and capability to F414/Kaveri. It would be more believable if F414 technology was modified into Kaveri. M88 being modified for Kaveri is simply meaningless.

Obviously, if France invests, they will get the IP rights. That will be similar to India getting license production rights or even worse, partial imports.



Raw material does not mean ore also includes the pure metal ingots. The first level processing of raw material to make it in a more compact and presentable form is also raw material. The reason being that the ore contains large amount of waste, dust and is powdery which makes it very difficult and fuel expensive to transport. For example, iron ore is a raw material but ordinary steel ingot can also be considered as raw material. However, high grade steel is not raw material.

Manufacturing from raw material doesn't mean just machining. Even alloying, welding, single crystal furnace are all part of the manufacturing.

I think you should be knowing that HAL can't be expected to have blast furnaces to extract metal from ore. HAL is a manufacturing company, not mining company.



I am not sure of that. However, the Al31F performance is better than GE F110 and PW F100 engine used in F16 and F15. Al31F has similar thrust to weight as F404 used currently in Tejas.

Also, note that India does not have access to rhenium. So, the third generation SCB may be hard to obtain. The generation of SCB depends on rhenium content. Rhenium extraction in the world is only 50tons a year which is too low and all the production is booked by various countries in advance

Very true, Rhenium is extremely rare in India and its market prices are bound to increase from its already quite expensive rates.

What I believe is that we need more studies and surveys to find these rare Earth metals in India.

India is a rich nation and its entirely possible that we might have deposits of Rhenium somewhere.

Rhenium in Indian rivers: Sources, fluxes, and contribution to oceanic budget

 

[Adioz]

All what is needed from Safran with respect to Kaveri is Debugging and Certification. The issue with Kaveri is, reheat oscillation in After Burner, along with some mass flow leakages, which we are not able to solve.

I thought that was the original agreement. Why the French doing a Russia on us now?

Also, note that India does not have access to rhenium

Then how do we have 2nd gen SCBs?

So, the third generation SCB may be hard to obtain. The generation of SCB depends on rhenium content. Rhenium extraction in the world is only 50tons a year which is too low and all the production is booked by various countries in advance

The challenge in creating 3rd gen SCB is not the amount of Rhenium that is used.
The challenge in creating 3rd gen SCB is the instability in microstructure (TCP segregation) of the superalloy when Rhenium content exceeds 5-6%. The key AFAIK, is devising a good heat treatment mode.

So the challenge is not insurmountable. And the limited amount of Rhenium is not the challenge we are facing.

 

[Kshithij]

This is precisely why Safranised Kaveri is :bs:

All what is needed from Safran with respect to Kaveri is Debugging and Certification. The issue with Kaveri is, reheat oscillation in After Burner, along with some mass flow leakages, which we are not able to solve.

Safran itself had said "Kaveri is almost there only 20% work is needed to certify and fly".

Mostly Safran, it seams is interested to force India to commit for buying New or Uprated M88 engine, which will be in Class of F414+ i.e. 110KN category.

Hence we are seeing the tussle and negotiation going on, between both the concerned parties.

India an France have the ability to make 4th generation engines with TWR around 8 whereas 5th generation engines need TWR of around 10. It makes sense to have the K10 110kN engine jointly developed by India and France with full IP to both countries and independent manufacturing of the engine but with shared costs. But if the proposal is to allow France to retain monopoly IP of certain engine parts, then it is still unacceptable.

AMCA needs engine thrust of 80/125kN flat rated to 70/110kN. The Kaveri engine is 65/100kN flat rated to 60/90kN. Kaveri engine won't be able to power AMCA and hence India needs a higher thrust engine. France too might be having some plan to get 5th generation engines. So, sharing investment cost and developing engine together will help both France and India in reducing the cost of development.

Either ways, kaveri K9 engine for Tejas will be fully Indian. There is no doubt about this

India don't produce SCB, Rehneuim content needed 3 percent on 2nd SCB, and 5 percent on 3rd gen SCB, and above 5 on 4th SCB.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

Read my comment where I have quoted official statement of HAL that HAL has single crystal technology.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/page-124#post-1414170

HAL Koraput website: http://www.hal-india.com/Sukhoi Engine Division Koraput/M__140

Just look at the "facilities" tab and check the facilities available. HAL even has facility to coat the turbine blades. I will paste the screenshot:

 

[Bravado]

So Russia gave you 1I00% ToT to make it yourself, but you still buy parts from Russia as a symbol of trust?

100% TOT was on paper, real TOT never happened. 14 years back, DRDO floated tender for full-scale 3D scanning of Su 30MKI as we never received the CAD model of Su 30 MKI as TOT. CAD was required for engineering analysis (like CFD) of the integration of Brahmos WITH Su 30MKI.

 

[Kshithij]

100% TOT was on paper, real TOT never happened. 14 years back, DRDO floated tender for full-scale 3D scanning of Su 30MKI as we never received the CAD model of Su 30 MKI as TOT. CAD was required for engineering analysis (like CFD) of the integration of Brahmos WITH Su 30MKI.

The Sukhoi engine division makes Al31FP engine in house. India also makes RD33 engine for MiG29.

Mnor issue like CAD etc are not the critical technology. India can simply make one of its own. What is critical technology is that which requires extensive manufacturing base, research and time. India could never have made Su30 MKI in the short span if not for ToT from Russia. The ToT may not have been complete but Russia gave enough hints and OEM certification for our plants.

India-Russia ToT goes back in time since 1970. Russia has been giving ToT for India to make fighter planes since 1970. India was never a rich nation that it could import 650 MiG21 from Russia in 1970s and 80s. All of them were made in house and hence India could afford them.

India don't produce SCB, Rehneuim content needed 3 percent on 2nd SCB, and 5 percent on 3rd gen SCB, and above 5 on 4th SCB.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

SCB by itself does not need rhenium. 1st generation SCB is made without rhenium. SCB is a technology of alloying and not dependent on rhenium. The generations of SCB depends on rhenium as rhenium imparts a great amount of temperature tolerance to the alloy.

Very true, Rhenium is extremely rare in India and its market prices are bound to increase from its already quite expensive rates.

What I believe is that we need more studies and surveys to find these rare Earth metals in India.

India is a rich nation and its entirely possible that we might have deposits of Rhenium somewhere.

Rhenium in Indian rivers: Sources, fluxes, and contribution to oceanic budget

I thought that was the original agreement. Why the French doing a Russia on us now?


Then how do we have 2nd gen SCBs?

The challenge in creating 3rd gen SCB is not the amount of Rhenium that is used.
The challenge in creating 3rd gen SCB is the instability in microstructure (TCP segregation) of the superalloy when Rhenium content exceeds 5-6%. The key AFAIK, is devising a good heat treatment mode.

So the challenge is not insurmountable. And the limited amount of Rhenium is not the challenge we are facing.

The limited rhenium is indeed a big challenge. The rhenium in India is extremely low and very hard to extract. We can't extract if rhenium concentration is like 1milligram per KG of ore.

India definitely has 1st generation SCB. India may have even 3rd generation SCB but only as technology demonstrator. Having technology is not the hard part but having the ability to mass manufacture is the hard part.

To mass manufacture engines, on needs to have access to at least a few tons of Rhenium, Considering the scarcity of rhenium, it is unlikely that India will ever get rhenium for required quantity. Also, even if India gets few tons of rhenium, it will be difficult to get more during war when there will be a requirement for manufacturing large quantity of planes.

Say, India manages to get enough rhenium to make 100 engines a year and a war starts requiring 1000+ engines or more a year for mass production and replacement of damaged engines. Since we would already have developed our engines by using rhenium and our FBW, pilots are also trained likewise, we will find it hard to make a sudden change.

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

India an France have the ability to make 4th generation engines with TWR around 8 whereas 5th generation engines need TWR of around 10. It makes sense to have the K10 110kN engine jointly developed by India and France with full IP to both countries and independent manufacturing of the engine but with shared costs. But if the proposal is to allow France to retain monopoly IP of certain engine parts, then it is still unacceptable.

AMCA needs engine thrust of 80/125kN flat rated to 70/110kN. The Kaveri engine is 65/100kN flat rated to 60/90kN. Kaveri engine won't be able to power AMCA and hence India needs a higher thrust engine. France too might be having some plan to get 5th generation engines. So, sharing investment cost and developing engine together will help both France and India in reducing the cost of development.

Either ways, kaveri K9 engine for Tejas will be fully Indian. There is no doubt about this

Do you know what is the Catch here????

M88 dont have the potential to reach 110KN. It is simply not possible to upgrade 75KN to 110-125. Though they say it can be done upto 105KN, but further from here it will severely affect LIFE of the engine, with current level of technology.

But Kaveri is already is designed for 90KN, and has already reached 82-85KN, has more potential for 110KN+.

Hence, French are pressing for upgrading the Kaveri all in the name of SAFRANISED-KAVERI.

French want to upgrade M88 to its full potential but the cost they want to pass on the cost of upgradation to India, at the same time keep the IPR with themselves, all in the name of SAFRANISED-KAVERI.

 

[Kshithij]

Do you know what is the Catch here????

M88 dont have the potential to reach 110KN. It is simply not possible to upgrade 75KN to 110-125. Though they say it can be done upto 105KN, but further from here it will severely affect LIFE of the engine, with current level of technology.

But Kaveri is already is designed for 90KN, and has already reached 82-85KN, has more potential for 110KN+.

Hence, French are pressing for upgrading the Kaveri all in the name of SAFRANISED-KAVERI.

French want to upgrade M88 to its full potential but the cost they want to pass on the cost of upgradation to India, at the same time keep the IPR with themselves, all in the name of SAFRANISED-KAVERI.

M88 can't reach anything above 85kN as the size is too small. Kaveri is designed to be flat rated 84kN which means 100kN peak thrust. Flat rating means that the engine thrust is lowered to not cross certain value by FADEc programming. The maximum thrust hen remains constant across altitude instead of decreasing with height. Kaveri won't reach 110kN as the size of the engine is not big enough, the fan diameter and air inlet is not big enough to support that much thrust.

I am speaking of developing a new 5th generation engine with TWR of 10 jointly. Th M88 is not going to be used but a brand new engine of 125kN thrust flat rated to 110kN is to be made by pooling together the funds between France and India so as to reduce the development cost.

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

M88 can't reach anything above 85kN as the size is too small. Kaveri is designed to be flat rated 84kN which means 100kN peak thrust. Flat rating means that the engine thrust is lowered to not cross certain value by FADEc programming. The maximum thrust hen remains constant across altitude instead of decreasing with height. Kaveri won't reach 110kN as the size of the engine is not big enough, the fan diameter and air inlet is not big enough to support that much thrust.

I am speaking of developing a new 5th generation engine with TWR of 10 jointly. Th M88 is not going to be used but a brand new engine of 125kN thrust flat rated to 110kN is to be made by pooling together the funds between France and India so as to reduce the development cost.

Then you have to wait for 10 to 15 years my friend.

If F414EPE (154 in X 35 in - Bypass ratio, 0.25:1) can have potential for 110KN then so be the same for Kaveri (137.4 in X 35.8 in - Bypass ratio, 0.16:1).

Infact Kaveri has bigger Diameter then F414.:biggrin2:

Its the LPT spools which have to be looked into for desired mass flow.

PS: look at EJ-200 - (157.0 in X 29.0 in) Thrust: 90 kN (20,200 lbf) (with afterburner) and they are also interested to develop it further to 110KN for AMCA.

 

[Adioz]

, it will be difficult to get more during war when there will be a requirement for manufacturing large quantity of planes.

Say, India manages to get enough rhenium to make 100 engines a year and a war starts requiring 1000+ engines or more a year for mass production

I was doubtful at first, but now I am sure. You are indeed @Vijyes .

Wars these days don't last half a decade like WWII, so for the 100th time, there is not going to be a requirement for 1000+ engines in one year if we go to war. Modern wars have stern escalation controls and even if we blow it up, no one expects anyone to replace battle losses of major weapons systems, let alone increase numbers. Modern wars are supposed to be fought with existing major pieces that are already on the board.

And if GTRE also thinks that India cannot depend on Rhenium, then why is there no concerted effort in trying to develop an alternative to Rhenium-based superalloys for turbine blade applications? Why is DRDO claiming that it will be able to complete K10 and K9 engines? Your logic does not hold.

The limited rhenium is indeed a big challenge. The rhenium in India is extremely low and very hard to extract. We can't extract if rhenium concentration is like 1milligram per KG of ore.
India definitely has 1st generation SCB. India may have even 3rd generation SCB but only as technology demonstrator. Having technology is not the hard part but having the ability to mass manufacture is the hard part.

To mass manufacture engines, on needs to have access to at least a few tons of Rhenium, Considering the scarcity of rhenium, it is unlikely that India will ever get rhenium for required quantity. Also, even if India gets few tons of rhenium, it will be difficult to get more during war when there will be a requirement for manufacturing large quantity of planes.

Say, India manages to get enough rhenium to make 100 engines a year and a war starts requiring 1000+ engines or more a year for mass production and replacement of damaged engines. Since we would already have developed our engines by using rhenium and our FBW, pilots are also trained likewise, we will find it hard to make a sudden change.

 

[Kshithij]

Then you have to wait for 10 to 15 years my friend.

If F414EPE (154 in X 35 in - Bypass ratio, 0.25:1) can have potential for 110KN then so be the same for Kaveri (137.4 in X 35.8 in - Bypass ratio, 0.16:1).

Infact Kaveri has bigger Diameter then F414.:biggrin2:

Its the LPT spools which have to be looked into for desired mass flow.

PS: look at EJ-200 - (157.0 in X 29.0 in) Thrust: 90 kN (20,200 lbf) (with afterburner) and they are also interested to develop it further to 110KN for AMCA.

EJ200 is 90kN engine and is at highest efficiency. F414 has to be more efficient than F119 if the thrust has to go to 110kN. It is simply impossible for Kaveri to become 110kN engine without increase in size. F414 is extremely efficient engine and one must not expect a more efficient one in the same size.

India can make a new engine using experience from Kaveri development to get 110kN engine but not increase the Kaveri to that extent. Also, I have told earlier that India intends to make flat rated engine which means there is a requirement for 125kN peak thrust.

I was doubtful at first, but now I am sure. You are indeed @Vijyes .

Wars these days don't last half a decade like WWII, so for the 100th time, there is not going to be a requirement for 1000+ engines in one year if we go to war. Modern wars have stern escalation controls and even if we blow it up, no one expects anyone to replace battle losses of major weapons systems, let alone increase numbers. Modern wars are supposed to be fought with existing major pieces that are already on the board.

And if GTRE also thinks that India cannot depend on Rhenium, then why is there no concerted effort in trying to develop an alternative to Rhenium-based superalloys for turbine blade applications? Why is DRDO claiming that it will be able to complete K10 and K9 engines? Your logic does not hold.

What escalation controls? What are you speaking of? Why should there be an escalation control? Who controls that? Who told you that modern wars are to be fought with existing pieces on the board? Why do you think war can't be calculated to be fought 3-4 years in advance and then build up rapidly? Give proper reasons. Don't shoot and scoot your opinions.

How do you know that GTRE is interested in rhenium? Why is it not possible that GTRE may be using CMC coating? Rhenium super alloy can be subsituted with CMC coating or some other super alloy i don't know of