Kaveri Engine

[Armand2REP]

Unless AESAR made under project Uttam is fielded in 100s of LCA Tejas. RBE2 is surely radar of choice until then.

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Considering RBE2 mini AESA is designed precisely to fit into Tejas tells me it is the intermediate option until UTTAM is ready, it can also retrofit all Mk1 to Mk2 standard. Thales would not make the expense if the results were not likely.

 

[Kshithij]

From a marketing perspective, international buyers are far more likely to want a proven RBE2 rather than an experimental UTTAM. Your domestic air-frames will be taking several year to overcome that hurdle. RBE2 is proven years ago and improves capability every new batch and is also included with weapons ready to go. If you go with GE engines you can forget exports, your potential clients are not the ones interested in US export controls. If you really want to export Tejas Mk2, the French tie up is really the best way to go as you get proven radar with integrated weapons package, sovereign engine sales with the political clout of a UNSC seat and leader of an EU block.

Actually it is the other way around. A plane which is a hotch potch arrangement between countries with different critical parts sourced from different countries is likely to be turned down as unreliable. The spare parts requirement from different countries increases problems. This is not just with US parts but with all the parts.

The best way to market a plane is to to provide warranty and maintenance with it which will require all the parts to be Indian. The idea that newcomers will be considered unreliable while preference will be given to old players is not exactly correct. The price difference between Indian plane and western one will be very steep due to cheaper labour cost in India. That itself will be the biggest selling point

 

[Kshithij]

Considering RBE2 mini AESA is designed precisely to fit into Tejas tells me it is the intermediate option until UTTAM is ready, it can also retrofit all Mk1 to Mk2 standard. Thales would not make the expense if the results were not likely.

Tejas MK2 will have UTTAM AESA. Tejas MK1 is an intermediate plane and will field RBE2 radar and F404 engine. But these MK1 are only for India, not for exports. Even India does not like them but are forced to buy to build and maintain Indian MIC and aerospace infrastructure till MK2 is developed

The MK2 will come by 2024-25 (2025 is FOC) and will field Indian engine, avionics and radar. It is likely to be 100% Indian plane with all parts made in India

 

[Armand2REP]

Actually it is the other way around. A plane which is a hotch potch arrangement between countries with different critical parts sourced from different countries is likely to be turned down as unreliable. The spare parts requirement from different countries increases problems. This is not just with US parts but with all the parts.

The best way to market a plane is to to provide warranty and maintenance with it which will require all the parts to be Indian. The idea that newcomers will be considered unreliable while preference will be given to old players is not exactly correct. The price difference between Indian plane and western one will be very steep due to cheaper labour cost in India. That itself will be the biggest selling point

I didn't want to bring up Dhruv and the issues at HAL but yeah, it didn't turn out so well. It is best to have a brother who can watch your back and ensure things go smoothly. France can be that brother and put India on the arms exporting leader board at the same time helping our own position. To combat the dominance of the US we need to think beyond ourselves and to the greater good.

 

[Kshithij]

I didn't want to bring up Dhruv and the issues at HAL but yeah, it didn't turn out so well. It is best to have a brother who can watch your back and ensure things go smoothly. France can be that brother and put India on the arms exporting leader board at the same time helping our own position. To combat the dominance of the US we need to think beyond ourselves and to the greater good.

That greater good will come only with 100% ToT in return for a fee. Dhruv was powered by French engine, by the way (Turbomecca). So, india can't be blamed fully for crashes.

India is capable of taking care of itself. Total population of India is more than EU and USA combined. Even technologically, India is not too backwards and is doing catch up pretty quick.

 

[Adioz]

Look at the last point of screenshot -MAP coating equipment for coating of blades.

Did you see it now? It is getting embarrassing.

• All that proves is that HAL has the ability to coat Al-31 turbine blades. Where does it say that coatings are a substitute for Rhenium? Where does it say that Kaveri's coatings are already achieved?
• DRDO already has 2nd generation SCBs. How do they have that without Rhenium?

About the thermal barrier coating, it was mentioned by one DRDO scientist as a problem area. But that is old interview, and back then, Kaveri was still using DS blades. Not sure if the problem has been completely overcome yet. Hope that it has been.

Agree to disagree is bullshit. Give me proper reason with data to prove that it is not 'possible' (I am not speaking of need but possibility).

What the F**K is wrong with you? Why can you not agree to disagree? At the very least, why can't you keep your imaginations (about a WWIII lasting 10 years) away from the Kaveri thread? Go shit on some other thread with these fantasies. This is not the place to be discussing this nonsense.

 

[Armand2REP]

That greater good will come only with 100% ToT in return for a fee. Dhruv was powered by French engine, by the way (Turbomecca). So, india can't be blamed fully for crashes.

India is capable of taking care of itself. Total population of India is more than EU and USA combined. Even technologically, India is not too backwards and is doing catch up pretty quick.

The greater good for you, not for us. Not one of the four Ecuador crashes was engine related and replaced with Fennec helicopters. Investigators placed the blame on HAL for poor aftermarket service. France has excellent aftermarket service and can support India in this regard. You have been trying for a long time to break out into the international arms market but it remains elusive. India just needs a break and France can provide it in a big way that benefits us both.

Look at it this way, it is better to have an Indian product with 30-40% French content that sells than it is to have a 100% indigenous product that no one buys. Can we agree on that?

 

[Kshithij]

• All that proves is that HAL has the ability to coat Al-31 turbine blades. Where does it say that coatings are a substitute for Rhenium? Where does it say that Kaveri's coatings are already achieved?
• DRDO already has 2nd generation SCBs. How do they have that without Rhenium?

About the thermal barrier coating, it was mentioned by one DRDO scientist as a problem area. But that is old interview, and back then, Kaveri was still using DS blades. Not sure if the problem has been completely overcome yet. Hope that it has been.

That thermal coating is what is put on Al31F blades. What else will be coated on an engine blade? So, if coating can be done on Al31F, then the technology is there in India which may be modified for Kaveri.

I am not sure if Kaveri uses rhenium or an alternative.

What the F**K is wrong with you? Why can you not agree to disagree? At the very least, why can't you keep your imaginations (about a WWIII lasting 10 years) away from the Kaveri thread? Go shit on some other thread with these fantasies. This is not the place to be discussing this nonsense.

If the plane is not meant for using in war, what is the use? The Kaveri engine has to be prepared for mass manufacturing without being hindered by enemy cutting off supplies or any other supply bottleneck. Isn't it common sense?

The greater good for you, not for us. Not one of the four Ecuador crashes was engine related and replaced with Fennec helicopters. Investigators placed the blame on HAL for poor aftermarket service. France has excellent aftermarket service and can support India in this regard. You have been trying for a long time to break out into the international arms market but it remains elusive. India just needs a break and France can provide it in a big way that benefits us both.

Look at it this way, it is better to have an Indian product with 30-40% French content that sells than it is to have a 100% indigenous product that no one buys. Can we agree on that?

If you intend to say that Indian items for export is better to have 60-70% Indian components and be sold than be 100% Indian and not be sold, I agree. However, if your intention is to say that Indian items to be purchased by Indian military itself should have 30% French parts, then it is not reasonable. Indian military will not ask for french parts just for the sake of it.

However, the biggest drawback to exports is having to source spare parts from multiple countries. The sharing may actually be a hindrance to exports. The Ecuador helicopter crash may also have been mitigated if HAL had full engine technology and could timely repair/overhaul it without delays from waiting for spare parts

 

[Adioz]

That thermal coating is what is put on Al31F blades. What else will be coated on an engine blade? So, if coating can be done on Al31F, then the technology is there in India which may be modified for Kaveri.

The same coating is not being used on Kaveri though. Its a different, more advanced coating that is being used (or is being planned). Otherwise, the DRDO scientist would not have highlighted this as an issue. I just hope they have surmounted the thermal barrier coating issue.

If the plane is not meant for using in war, what is the use? The Kaveri engine has to be prepared for mass manufacturing without being hindered by enemy cutting off supplies or any other supply bottleneck. Isn't it common sense?

We are already discussing the issue on Indian Defence industry exports, Privatization, Indigenization Watch Thread. So let us stop discussing it on this thread.

 

[Kshithij]

The same coating is not being used on Kaveri though. Its a different, more advanced coating that is being used (or is being planned). Otherwise, the DRDO scientist would not have highlighted this as an issue. I just hope they have surmounted the thermal barrier coating issue.

There are answers to some questions which I am not sure of:
Does F414 have the coating? It was made in 1990. Does it even have rhenium? Rhenium based SCB was first made in 1986 by P&W. Also, does AL31F have rhenium? Is there a need for rhenium SCB if coating can increase TET? Is there an alternative to rhenium?

So, this is still a doubt. However, the coating technology in HAL gives a ray of hope

 

[Armand2REP]

If the plane is not meant for using in war, what is the use? The Kaveri engine has to be prepared for mass manufacturing without being hindered by enemy cutting off supplies or any other supply bottleneck. Isn't it common sense?

That is why you should choose the French supplier over the American or UK-German engines. If you are capable of building it yourself then we would not be talking.

If you intend to say that Indian items for export is better to have 60-70% Indian components and be sold than be 100% Indian and not be sold, I agree. However, if your intention is to say that Indian items to be purchased by Indian military itself should have 30% French parts, then it is not reasonable. Indian military will not ask for french parts just for the sake of it.

Tejas is only 59.7% Indian content by value, so how is that any worse than what you have now? At least then you would only have to deal with France for anything outside of India.

However, the biggest drawback to exports is having to source spare parts from multiple countries. The sharing may actually be a hindrance to exports. The Ecuador helicopter crash may also have been mitigated if HAL had full engine technology and could timely repair/overhaul it without delays from waiting for spare parts

Exactly, you are sourcing parts for Tejas from multiple countries, get it down to one.... France.

You aren't getting full engine technology from anyone, it is a myth.

 

[Adioz]

There are answers to some questions which I am not sure of:
Does F414 have the coating? It was made in 1990. Does it even have rhenium? Rhenium based SCB was first made in 1986 by P&W. Also, does AL31F have rhenium? Is there a need for rhenium SCB if coating can increase TET? Is there an alternative to rhenium?

So, this is still a doubt. However, the coating technology in HAL gives a ray of hope

AFAIK, F-404 has 2nd gen SCB. F-414 has 3rd gen SCB.

Not sure about Al-31. I think it has 1st gen SCB.

Every increase in generation of SCB yields a roughly 100 Kelvin Celsius increase in TET. Coatings give upto a 300 Kelvin increase. You cannot substitute one with the other though. After 1st gen SCB with thermal barrier coating and cooling, the only way left to increase the TET substantially is increasing Rhenium content.

 

[Kshithij]

That is why you should choose the French supplier over the American or UK-German engines. If you are capable of building it yourself then we would not be talking.

This is only stop gap measure for time being. India is almost there in getting the engine and hence there is no need to talk of importing. The current stock of US engine is enough till the Kaveri flies. Additional engine from France makes no sense

Tejas is only 59.7% Indian content by value, so how is that any worse than what you have now? At least then you would only have to deal with France for anything outside of India.

This is so because India has not yet got its own radar and engine. Radar has completed ground trials and now flight trials are remaining. Engine is also in final stage. Since the purchase from France is not like magic that happen instantly, but in the future, the french parts are going to come by the time Indian parts are already functioning. I never spoke of USA parts over french but Indian over French.

Exactly, you are sourcing parts for Tejas from multiple countries, get it down to one.... France.

You aren't getting full engine technology from anyone, it is a myth.

The best solution is to source from India itself, not France. India is not like Turkey which has started everything after 2013. India has a long history of defence manufacturing. India made RD25 and RD33 engines since 1980s to power MiG21 and MiG29. India as of now makes RD33 and AL31F inhouse.

I don't see a reason to get unnecessary import contract at all as of now. India has made decent strides towards making Kaveri, stated Indian HTSE 1200 for helicopters all of them to be completed in 3 years. Had France made this offer in 2008-9, things would have been different. But, when India already has certain things, there is no point importing them. It is too late to offer peanuts.

 

[Kshithij]

AFAIK, F-404 has 2nd gen SCB. F-414 has 3rd gen SCB.

Not sure about Al-31. I think it has 1st gen SCB.

Every increase in generation of SCB yields a roughly 100 Kelvin Celsius increase in TET. Coatings give upto a 300 Kelvin increase. You cannot substitute one with the other though. After 1st gen SCB with thermal barrier coating and cooling, the only way left to increase the TET substantially is increasing Rhenium content.

Here is a PDF for the Scb and DS technology. Apparantly, they can be made without rhenium using Hafnium, Tantalum etc:
http://cannonmuskegon.com/wp-conten...Solidified-and-Single-Crystal-Superalloys.pdf

 

[Armand2REP]

This is only stop gap measure for time being. India is almost there in getting the engine and hence there is no need to talk of importing. The current stock of US engine is enough till the Kaveri flies. Additional engine from France makes no sense

This is so because India has not yet got its own radar and engine. Radar has completed ground trials and now flight trials are remaining. Engine is also in final stage. Since the purchase from France is not like magic that happen instantly, but in the future, the french parts are going to come by the time Indian parts are already functioning. I never spoke of USA parts over french but Indian over French.

The best solution is to source from India itself, not France. India is not like Turkey which has started everything after 2013. India has a long history of defence manufacturing. India made RD25 and RD33 engines since 1980s to power MiG21 and MiG29. India as of now makes RD33 and AL31F inhouse.

I don't see a reason to get unnecessary import contract at all as of now. India has made decent strides towards making Kaveri, stated Indian HTSE 1200 for helicopters all of them to be completed in 3 years. Had France made this offer in 2008-9, things would have been different. But, when India already has certain things, there is no point importing them. It is too late to offer peanuts.

You seem to be under the misconception that you have an engine in the final stage. Now it all becomes clear.

 

[Kshithij]

You seem to be under the misconception that you have an engine in the final stage. Now it all becomes clear.

Let us see if it is misconception or reality.

 

[mattster]

I agree with Armand.......No one is going to give away full jet engine technology for any price. Only 4 countries in the world have state of the art jet engine - US, UK, France and Russia. Not even Japan as advanced as they are in materials has engine technology. None of the guys that have it are going to depart with it for any price.

The level of effort and money to come up to speed on this technology that involves so many disciplines is so enormous that a country like India should focus its resources elsewhere, and just buy engines from a reliable supplier or assemble them locally. Assembling engines is not the same as making them from scratch which involves thousands of components. India doesn't make AL31F.....it only assembles them. Kaveri is no where near getting into the LCA.

Becoming self-sufficient in defense doesn't mean that you have to make every key piece. A country like India should spend its resources wisely.....instead of reaching for the sky.

 

[patriots]

there was a lot of buzzz.....but still now nothing is known about kaveri deal .......french president has not said anything....
..........hope we will see kaveri flying.

 

[G10]

Nothing is going to come out from france. The key is self reliance in times of situation like kargil. In such cases pak has advantage china. Us and ruskies and eu would chicken out. And france will never give us total tech. Kaveri would become dependent on france and we will be left high and dry during the conflict.

 

[Adioz]

Becoming self-sufficient in defense doesn't mean that you have to make every key piece

Then WTF does it mean?
I would agree if you would have said: "Being self-sufficient does not mean that you have to make every piece". But every key piece must be made in-house.

Here is a PDF for the Scb and DS technology. Apparantly, they can be made without rhenium using Hafnium, Tantalum etc:
http://cannonmuskegon.com/wp-conten...Solidified-and-Single-Crystal-Superalloys.pdf

The superalloys without Rhenium are used in first generation SCB. Look at the tables on pages 996 and 997 of your link. CMSX-4 and PWA 1484 are the only second gen SCB materials mentioned in the document. These contain 3% Re content.

Edit: That document has some new info for me. Apparently, the second generation of DS materials have some Rhenium content. Now let us imagine a scenario where DMRL and GTRE do not have access to Rhenium. That means that we were not able to create the second generation DS materials. Which means that the SCB in the following picture are not Second generation SCB, but first generation SCB.

So does this mean that DRDO does not have second generation SCB after all? And if this is true, then could this be the reason why we are collaborating with France? 'Cause we don't have access to Rhenium?

If lack of access to Rhenium is the real problem, then why does GTRE and DMRL not come out and say so? Something is off here.
We know that TET of Kaveri in last known run was 1700 K. This could not have happened with first generation SCB tech that can withstand a mere 1270 K. Especially so since GTRE has accepted that thermal barrier coating was a problem area. And even if they did somehow improve their coatings upto the state-of-the-art 300K protection, then that means all further scope of improvement in engine TET is over until we get Rhenium. In that case, DRDO would have come out in public and spelled out this reason. Or at least mentioned it bitterly in some interview.