Kaveri Engine

[TPFscopes]

Because we don't want to repeat mistakes of China.....


Even after so many theft and buying Russian technologies..... China could not develop a Good reliable Engine.

We are openly taking help from France and paying them money so that we can get a good reliable engine as soon as possible.... That is ethical and legal.

You are critising the Indian engine but you are still using this smokey Russian engine on J 20.

View attachment 18138

In the mentioned pic, J-20 has two different engines.
One is Russian while the other one is Copied Chinese ...

 

[abingdonboy]

In the mentioned pic, J-20 has two different engines.
One is Russian while the other one is Copied Chinese ...

Both are outdated and shouldn't be on a so-called "stealth/VLO" fighter

 

[no smoking]

From where did you get the idea that Kaveri is not ready for test on any fighter jet...it been ready for that stage since years. UPA never allotted a test bed for any test to happen, even today demand from research community is to provide a test bed pref. a twin engine fighter (Mig 29).

The first time I heard that Kaveri is like 8 or 9 years ago, even Modi has been in power for 3 years. But still, they didn't put this engine in any fighter yet. So, is Modi gov also corrupted? It has been the similar story, Indian scientists made something good, but corrupted gov or armed forces stall their progress. The interesting thing is, after being "ready" for years, suddenly, the research community is asking help from French get the engine "Ready" in another 8 month. Do we miss something here?

Further, Kaveri sustains the thrust it produces. Real problem is spec change during the learning curve which now require reduction in some weight and increase in thrust which can be achieved with inclusion of higher technologies and fine tuning of present platform based on various test which could not be conducted earlier either due to lack of funds from corrupt govt. or lack of in-house test facilities and the biggest factor being lack Govt. intent for indigenous products.

That is very funny: firstly, your research community claim the engine is ready to put in the fighter for long operational test, now you tell everyone that the engine need to cut some weight.

Hello! Do you understand what the purpose of the fighter test is? If your engine is overweight, then your engine is not ready.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The parameters and designs are changed ..

The engine went to Russia was latter meant to be mounted on a MIG-29, This is however was not pursued due to new developments, Go through the updates posted in this very thread ..

Hello! Do you understand what the purpose of the fighter test is? If your engine is overweight, then your engine is not ready.

 

[sjmaverick]

The first time I heard that Kaveri is like 8 or 9 years ago, even Modi has been in power for 3 years. But still, they didn't put this engine in any fighter yet. So, is Modi gov also corrupted? It has been the similar story, Indian scientists made something good, but corrupted gov or armed forces stall their progress. The interesting thing is, after being "ready" for years, suddenly, the research community is asking help from French get the engine "Ready" in another 8 month. Do we miss something here?



That is very funny: firstly, your research community claim the engine is ready to put in the fighter for long operational test, now you tell everyone that the engine need to cut some weight.

Hello! Do you understand what the purpose of the fighter test is? If your engine is overweight, then your engine is not ready.

Lol ! i dont doubt my understanding on the topic discussed though never claimed to be an expert on anything are you ?....Small published article on the same with no significant information but reiterating my comments posted earlier:

IDN TAKE: CAN THE KAVERI BE REVIVED?
WEDNESDAY, JULY 26, 2017 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS

Scrapping Kaveri may lead to import bill shooting up by Rs. 1 lakh crore in the next 15 years

A Historical Perspective
Seven years ago, when Indian Aero-engineers walked into the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow, they were shocked to see Chinese engineers there. The Indians had come to flight-test Kaveri, India's first indigenous jet engine. The Chinese, too, had come on a similar mission. And, the Indian engineers were worried whether the Chinese would beat them to it.
Worry was understandable, because jet-engine technology is even more exclusive than nuclear know-how. Only a few countries in the world know how to make jet engines. The market for tens of thousands of engines that power fighter planes owned by air forces across the globe is controlled by just a handful of companies—GE and Pratt & Whitney of the United States, NPO Saturn, Klimov of Russia, Rolls-Royce of the UK, Safran/Snecma of France and Eurojet of Germany. The dominance of these companies is almost complete, evident from the fact that even though Rolls-Royce admitted to have paid commission to agents in dealing with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the defence ministry could not do much because if Rolls-Royce stopped supplying engines, it would affect HAL's production of Jaguar fighter bombers.
Kaveri, which was developed at the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), successfully completed the sub-sonic test in Moscow by flying a giant Ilyushin-76 aircraft. The Chinese test was a failure. Seven years later, however, it seems the Kaveri story is going to have a sad end, while the Chinese are making steady progress with their project.
Back from Russia, lack of funds significantly slowed down Kaveri's progress. GTRE had shortage of funds to even run the five prototype engines which have been produced so far. It was difficult to procure fuel for the engines. The Chinese story, on the other hand, turned out to be completely different. After their engineers returned with the failed engine, the Chinese government opened its purse-strings and invested more than $60 billion for developing its aerospace sector of which a significant portion was spent on the jet engine program. China has "gone crazy for making aircraft," says a recent white paper prepared by renowned aerospace scientist Roddam Narasimha.
Flush with funds, the Chinese burnt the midnight jet-fuel and put their WS-10 turbofan engine on a few prototypes of their J-10 fighters, and flew them. But they are still far from developing the engine for squadron service. India can also fly Kaveri sub-optimally, as the Chinese are doing, but we don't have test aircraft for that, until now.
Anyway, Narasimha's paper, had some effect on the then Manmohan Singh government. When GTRE asked for half a million dollars in the budget, the babus returned the request, saying it was "sub-optimal", and with the advice to ask for more. This gave GTRE hope. GTRE can still catch up with the Chinese, because they have already addressed the issues on making the engine supersonic. GTRE needs only funds and the government's free nod to continue with the development of the platform.
But, the Narendra Modi government scrapped all DRDO development programs that face significant delays could end India's Kaveri dreams. Then DRDO's Director-General (Aero) K. Tamilmani has reportedly described it as a bold move, saying the agency has realised its old mistakes and is taking steps to address them.
GTRE scientists, who made the engine, disagree. Indeed, the Kaveri program has taken long. The defence ministry told Parliament that the project was sanctioned in March 1989 at a cost of Rs. 382.8 crore, to be completed by December 1996. This was revised (in 2005) to December 2009. But GTRE scientists say similar engines produced by global manufacturers will cost almost three to four times. With Rs. 2,105 crore having been spent on the program so far and with over two decades of experience in the field.
According to GTRE scientists, Kaveri now needs to cover just the last mile. According to defence ministry estimates, India would be spending a whopping Rs. 3.5 lakh crore for its aircraft fleet, including the fifth generation fighter aircraft and the 36 French Rafale combat aircraft, in the next 10 years, of which the cost of the engines would be around Rs. 74,500 crore. Engines for the Su-30MKI fleet would require another Rs. 70,000 crore. Most of the money that India is planning to spend on these engines is likely to go to foreign countries, but the Kaveri would have helped the country in saving at least 30 to 40 per cent of the funds.
Scientists deny that India had to buy GE engines to power Tejas, India's first light combat aircraft, because of the delay in Kaveri. Nobody in the world puts an untested engine in an untested aircraft. Even if Kaveri was ready, HAL would have put some other engine in Tejas. It is always like that. The first engines are always put in proven aircraft and untested aircraft are always powered with proven engines. The first 40 LCAs are being powered by GE-404 engine whereas the DRDO has placed orders for more than 200 GE-414 engines for the LCA-MKII, which are scheduled to be ready by 2017-18.
There are unconfirmed reports that Kaveri is being designed also to power India's top secret unmanned combat aerial vehicle. It is almost certain that no country would supply engines for UCAVs. Since the UCAV would be a lighter plane, the present power of the Kaveri engine would be enough for powering it. The UCAV program, being worked on by DRDO and HAL, has been reportedly sanctioned Rs 7,000 crore.

Simultaneously, scientists working on Kaveri say they have tackled all technical issues in making the engine supersonic. They need to test it on a fighter such as MiG-29 or a SU-30MKI which may happen soon. They are confident that Kaveri has hit the home stretch. It just needs an aircraft, a few more months, some more money and little more patience to secure India's entry into the exclusive fighter jet engine club.

Taking Wings
The Kaveri project is being revived with French help for use on both the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Work is on with the French side to use the significant offsets on the Rafale fighter jet deal to fund a redevelopment of the Kaveri. French company Safran has to invest over $1 billion in India as part of its offset obligations for the Rafale deal. The Kaveri turbofan has a bright future ahead!
Beneath the Wings
GE and Pratt & Whitney of the United States and Rolls-Royce of the United Kingdom are the world's leading fighter-jet engine manufacturers. Other prominent engine makers include NPO Saturn and Klimov of Russia, Snecma of France and Eurojet Turbo GmbH based in Germany, run by a consortium of Rolls-Royce, Avio (Italy), ITP (Spain) and MTU (Germany).
Some of the leading engines and the fighters they power:
GE
The F110 family: Powers F-15 and F-16 fighter aircraft of many countries
The F404 family: Used in the world's first stealth fighter, the F-117. Also powers Korean T-50s, Boeing F/A-18C/D Hornets, SAAB Gripen multi-role fighters
The F414 family: Powers Boeing Super Hornets and Growlers, MKII version of the Tejas light combat aircraft, Saab's next generation Gripen aircraft
PRATT & WHITNEY
The F119 family: Powers the US Air Force's F-22 Raptors
The F135 family: Used in the F-35 Lightning IIs, all of the US Air Force's F-15 Eagles and the majority of the world's F-16 Fighting Falcons
The F100 family: Powers various aircraft of 23 air forces around the world
ROLLS-ROYCE
RB199: Tornado multi-role aircraft operated by the UK, Germany, Italy and Saudi Arabia
Adour: SEPECAT Jaguars, Mitsubishi T-2s and F-1s, BAE Systems Hawk
Spey: AMX strike aircraft
NPO SATURN
AL-21: Powers Sukhoi Su-17s, Su-24s, Sukhoi T-10s and MiG-23s
AL-31: All Su-27 derivatives and China's Chengdu J-10 multi-role fighters
AL-31F: Su-35BM and PAK FA
SNECMA
M88: Multi-role combat aircraft Rafale from Dassault Aviation
M53: Mirage 2000
Atar: Mirage F1s and 50s
EUROJET
EJ200: Eurofighter Typhoons
KLIMOV
RD-33 Series: MiG-35s and Mig29Ks
SMR-95 Series: Super Mirage F-1s, Super Cheetah D-2s (of the South African Air Force)

Source : http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/07/idn-take-can-kaveri-be-revived.html

 

[kunal1123]

View attachment 18272
Could this be the new engine for Tejas? Need answers from Gas Turbine experts

could be for new engien a i recall there is a tender with time period for 5 year to Design and development of three stage 5 fan for 75/110 kN thrust class engine.
just adding in this as it related..

 

[airtel]

could be for new engien a i recall there is a tender with time period for 5 year to Design and development of three stage 5 fan for 75/110 kN thrust class engine.
just adding in this as it related..

or may be it is for AURA in which only dry Engine is needed ?? and Money was released in 2015 >>

www.economictimes.com/news/defence/government-set-to-clear-rs-3000-crore-plan-to-develop-engine-for-indias-first-ucav/articleshow/49775096.cms

 

[kunal1123]

idrw.org
How 90kN-Kaveri and 125kN-Kaveri Engine Projects will be Game Changer for India
6-7 minutes
SOURCE: DIGAMBAR THAKUR / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

A report prepared by Deputy Editor Manu Pubby for ” The Print ” suggests that India and France recently held discussions to develop a new Kaveri engine which will be able to generate 125Kn Thrust levels to replace current AL-31F engines on 272 Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets. India and France are already engaged in the development of a 90kN Thrust level engine which will be ready by 2019 based on India’s Kaveri K9 prototype engine. New 90kN Kaveri mostly likely will be used in India’s Tejas MK-1A to replace American GE supplied F404-GE-IN20 after burning engines.

90kN Kaveri will be mated into retired Tejas PV-1 air-frame to used as a flying test bed for the engine, 18 months turn around time and fast tracked testing once commenced will allow, India and France to a put 90kN Kaveri into production in next 5 years and will enter into Tejas MK-1A in later batches and will replace American engines in older batches once production line stabilizes . India also plans to develop a 51kN Dry thrust version of the engine to be used on India’s Ghatak UCAV Project.

GTRE a few years back had held talks with French Snecma on possible development of new K10 engine using a new Rafales M-88 core to develop a 99kN thrust engine which could power both Tejas MK-2 and AMCA fighter jets but talks failed to materialise into a collaboration but since then Tejas MK-2 has gone cold and AMCA Project came up with engine requirement of 110kN thrust class engine after Developers wanted to keep additional 10kN thrust as safety measure but 125kN Kaveri could be an attempt to kill two birds with one stone .

AL-31F engines on Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets will save India from the exorbitant amount of money which India needs to pay to Russia for Transfer of Technology license agreement for developing AL-31F engines in India and also to remove the problematic engine it self which keeps the operational availability of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet lower than 65% in Indian air force.

India’s 5th Generation AMCA fighter jet project required specific tailored made 110kN thrust engine which was not easy to find since turbojet afterburning engines available in the market are not in that specific class of thrust which India wanted and could have required collaboration with International OEMs like GE or Safran to uprate their existing lineup and it was also realised that 110kN thrust class engine powered AMCA was able to Supercruise and meet Air Staff Requirements (ASR) issued by Indian Air force but development of Naval-AMCA and to meet carrier borne operations duties from an aircraft carrier, Naval-AMCA could be heavier than Air force version and 110kN thrust class engine could have lead to fall in performance for Carrier based Naval AMCA and this could be the biggest reason why India is keen on developing a new 125kN Kaveri engine .

Initial AMCA Prototypes will be powered by Ge supplied F-414INS6 engine which generates a 99kN thrust before being replaced by a 125kN Kaveri engine before it hits production. if Air force AMCA variant is able to meet ASR issued by Indian air force then IAF should be completely ok with a more power full engine and Since Navy is already having a discussion with developers of AMCA and DRDO it can be assumed that new engine requirement might have been due to Navy joining the AMCA Project.

125kN Kaveri engine will not be plug and play for Sukhoi-30MKI and will require certain modifications and changes to the airframe as well as to the engine itself, for that India might require Russian help but if Russia does refuse to help or asks for hefty amount of money then HAL and DRDO along with French will be able to replace this engines on their own just like how Chinese have been experimenting with their WS-Series of afterburning engines on their Sukhoi-27/30 and their Copies .

India somewhat is trying to replicate what China has done with in its engine development, one is to replace Russian sourced engines with locally copied engines, where locally developed WS-13 Taishan engine (86kN-90kN) will replace Klimov RD-93 turbofan (81.3 kN-98 kN ) and Shenyang WS-10 (120–140kn) will replace AL-31 series of engines (123-145 kN) for single and twin engine requirements .

off course India’s 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine will not be based on Russian technology nor illegal copies of them but will be based on Indian and western technology which will allow India to use them on other future projects if and when required. like China, if India is successful in the development of both 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine technology, then it will be able to uprated or down-rated this engines to meet its requirements, a 51kN derivative engine for UCAVs from 90kN Kaveri engine and may be even a 130-140kN high-bypass turbofan derivative of 125kN Kaveri engine for the future Transport aircraft project perhaps .

Disclaimer : Articles published under ” MY TAKE ” are articles written by Guest Writers and Opinions expressed within this article are the personal opinions of the author. IDRW.ORG is not responsible for the accuracy, completeness, suitability, or validity of any information on this article. All information is provided on an as-is basis. The information, facts or opinions appearing in the article do not reflect the views of IDRW.ORG and IDRW.ORG does not assume any responsibility or liability for the same. article is for information purposes only and not intended to constitute professional advice .
Article by DIGAMBAR THAKUR , cannot be republished Partially or Full without consent from Writer or idrw.org
Note: If you have personal opinion and want to contribute for” MY TAKE ”on Defence matters kindly email us at [email protected]

 

[Kchontha]

idrw.org
How 90kN-Kaveri and 125kN-Kaveri Engine Projects will be Game Changer for India
6-7 minutes
SOURCE: DIGAMBAR THAKUR / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

A report prepared by Deputy Editor Manu Pubby for ” The Print ” suggests that India and France recently held discussions to develop a new Kaveri engine which will be able to generate 125Kn Thrust levels to replace current AL-31F engines on 272 Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets. India and France are already engaged in the development of a 90kN Thrust level engine which will be ready by 2019 based on India’s Kaveri K9 prototype engine. New 90kN Kaveri mostly likely will be used in India’s Tejas MK-1A to replace American GE supplied F404-GE-IN20 after burning engines.

90kN Kaveri will be mated into retired Tejas PV-1 air-frame to used as a flying test bed for the engine, 18 months turn around time and fast tracked testing once commenced will allow, India and France to a put 90kN Kaveri into production in next 5 years and will enter into Tejas MK-1A in later batches and will replace American engines in older batches once production line stabilizes . India also plans to develop a 51kN Dry thrust version of the engine to be used on India’s Ghatak UCAV Project.

GTRE a few years back had held talks with French Snecma on possible development of new K10 engine using a new Rafales M-88 core to develop a 99kN thrust engine which could power both Tejas MK-2 and AMCA fighter jets but talks failed to materialise into a collaboration but since then Tejas MK-2 has gone cold and AMCA Project came up with engine requirement of 110kN thrust class engine after Developers wanted to keep additional 10kN thrust as safety measure but 125kN Kaveri could be an attempt to kill two birds with one stone .

AL-31F engines on Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets will save India from the exorbitant amount of money which India needs to pay to Russia for Transfer of Technology license agreement for developing AL-31F engines in India and also to remove the problematic engine it self which keeps the operational availability of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet lower than 65% in Indian air force.

India’s 5th Generation AMCA fighter jet project required specific tailored made 110kN thrust engine which was not easy to find since turbojet afterburning engines available in the market are not in that specific class of thrust which India wanted and could have required collaboration with International OEMs like GE or Safran to uprate their existing lineup and it was also realised that 110kN thrust class engine powered AMCA was able to Supercruise and meet Air Staff Requirements (ASR) issued by Indian Air force but development of Naval-AMCA and to meet carrier borne operations duties from an aircraft carrier, Naval-AMCA could be heavier than Air force version and 110kN thrust class engine could have lead to fall in performance for Carrier based Naval AMCA and this could be the biggest reason why India is keen on developing a new 125kN Kaveri engine .

Initial AMCA Prototypes will be powered by Ge supplied F-414INS6 engine which generates a 99kN thrust before being replaced by a 125kN Kaveri engine before it hits production. if Air force AMCA variant is able to meet ASR issued by Indian air force then IAF should be completely ok with a more power full engine and Since Navy is already having a discussion with developers of AMCA and DRDO it can be assumed that new engine requirement might have been due to Navy joining the AMCA Project.

125kN Kaveri engine will not be plug and play for Sukhoi-30MKI and will require certain modifications and changes to the airframe as well as to the engine itself, for that India might require Russian help but if Russia does refuse to help or asks for hefty amount of money then HAL and DRDO along with French will be able to replace this engines on their own just like how Chinese have been experimenting with their WS-Series of afterburning engines on their Sukhoi-27/30 and their Copies .

India somewhat is trying to replicate what China has done with in its engine development, one is to replace Russian sourced engines with locally copied engines, where locally developed WS-13 Taishan engine (86kN-90kN) will replace Klimov RD-93 turbofan (81.3 kN-98 kN ) and Shenyang WS-10 (120–140kn) will replace AL-31 series of engines (123-145 kN) for single and twin engine requirements .

off course India’s 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine will not be based on Russian technology nor illegal copies of them but will be based on Indian and western technology which will allow India to use them on other future projects if and when required. like China, if India is successful in the development of both 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine technology, then it will be able to uprated or down-rated this engines to meet its requirements, a 51kN derivative engine for UCAVs from 90kN Kaveri engine and may be even a 130-140kN high-bypass turbofan derivative of 125kN Kaveri engine for the future Transport aircraft project perhaps .

Disclaimer : Articles published under ” MY TAKE ” are articles written by Guest Writers and Opinions expressed within this article are the personal opinions of the author. IDRW.ORG is not responsible for the accuracy, completeness, suitability, or validity of any information on this article. All information is provided on an as-is basis. The information, facts or opinions appearing in the article do not reflect the views of IDRW.ORG and IDRW.ORG does not assume any responsibility or liability for the same. article is for information purposes only and not intended to constitute professional advice .
Article by DIGAMBAR THAKUR , cannot be republished Partially or Full without consent from Writer or idrw.org
Note: If you have personal opinion and want to contribute for” MY TAKE ”on Defence matters kindly email us at [email protected]

If the information given in this article is right then this will be a new era of jet engine technology in India. Or is it just the writer's hallucination in marijaouna? Gurus please throw some light on this matter, please.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

idrw.org
How 90kN-Kaveri and 125kN-Kaveri Engine Projects will be Game Changer for India
6-7 minutes
SOURCE: DIGAMBAR THAKUR / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

A report prepared by Deputy Editor Manu Pubby for ” The Print ” suggests that India and France recently held discussions to develop a new Kaveri engine which will be able to generate 125Kn Thrust levels to replace current AL-31F engines on 272 Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets. India and France are already engaged in the development of a 90kN Thrust level engine which will be ready by 2019 based on India’s Kaveri K9 prototype engine. New 90kN Kaveri mostly likely will be used in India’s Tejas MK-1A to replace American GE supplied F404-GE-IN20 after burning engines.

90kN Kaveri will be mated into retired Tejas PV-1 air-frame to used as a flying test bed for the engine, 18 months turn around time and fast tracked testing once commenced will allow, India and France to a put 90kN Kaveri into production in next 5 years and will enter into Tejas MK-1A in later batches and will replace American engines in older batches once production line stabilizes . India also plans to develop a 51kN Dry thrust version of the engine to be used on India’s Ghatak UCAV Project.

GTRE a few years back had held talks with French Snecma on possible development of new K10 engine using a new Rafales M-88 core to develop a 99kN thrust engine which could power both Tejas MK-2 and AMCA fighter jets but talks failed to materialise into a collaboration but since then Tejas MK-2 has gone cold and AMCA Project came up with engine requirement of 110kN thrust class engine after Developers wanted to keep additional 10kN thrust as safety measure but 125kN Kaveri could be an attempt to kill two birds with one stone .

AL-31F engines on Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets will save India from the exorbitant amount of money which India needs to pay to Russia for Transfer of Technology license agreement for developing AL-31F engines in India and also to remove the problematic engine it self which keeps the operational availability of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet lower than 65% in Indian air force.

India’s 5th Generation AMCA fighter jet project required specific tailored made 110kN thrust engine which was not easy to find since turbojet afterburning engines available in the market are not in that specific class of thrust which India wanted and could have required collaboration with International OEMs like GE or Safran to uprate their existing lineup and it was also realised that 110kN thrust class engine powered AMCA was able to Supercruise and meet Air Staff Requirements (ASR) issued by Indian Air force but development of Naval-AMCA and to meet carrier borne operations duties from an aircraft carrier, Naval-AMCA could be heavier than Air force version and 110kN thrust class engine could have lead to fall in performance for Carrier based Naval AMCA and this could be the biggest reason why India is keen on developing a new 125kN Kaveri engine .

Initial AMCA Prototypes will be powered by Ge supplied F-414INS6 engine which generates a 99kN thrust before being replaced by a 125kN Kaveri engine before it hits production. if Air force AMCA variant is able to meet ASR issued by Indian air force then IAF should be completely ok with a more power full engine and Since Navy is already having a discussion with developers of AMCA and DRDO it can be assumed that new engine requirement might have been due to Navy joining the AMCA Project.

125kN Kaveri engine will not be plug and play for Sukhoi-30MKI and will require certain modifications and changes to the airframe as well as to the engine itself, for that India might require Russian help but if Russia does refuse to help or asks for hefty amount of money then HAL and DRDO along with French will be able to replace this engines on their own just like how Chinese have been experimenting with their WS-Series of afterburning engines on their Sukhoi-27/30 and their Copies .

India somewhat is trying to replicate what China has done with in its engine development, one is to replace Russian sourced engines with locally copied engines, where locally developed WS-13 Taishan engine (86kN-90kN) will replace Klimov RD-93 turbofan (81.3 kN-98 kN ) and Shenyang WS-10 (120–140kn) will replace AL-31 series of engines (123-145 kN) for single and twin engine requirements .

off course India’s 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine will not be based on Russian technology nor illegal copies of them but will be based on Indian and western technology which will allow India to use them on other future projects if and when required. like China, if India is successful in the development of both 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine technology, then it will be able to uprated or down-rated this engines to meet its requirements, a 51kN derivative engine for UCAVs from 90kN Kaveri engine and may be even a 130-140kN high-bypass turbofan derivative of 125kN Kaveri engine for the future Transport aircraft project perhaps .

Disclaimer : Articles published under ” MY TAKE ” are articles written by Guest Writers and Opinions expressed within this article are the personal opinions of the author. IDRW.ORG is not responsible for the accuracy, completeness, suitability, or validity of any information on this article. All information is provided on an as-is basis. The information, facts or opinions appearing in the article do not reflect the views of IDRW.ORG and IDRW.ORG does not assume any responsibility or liability for the same. article is for information purposes only and not intended to constitute professional advice .
Article by DIGAMBAR THAKUR , cannot be republished Partially or Full without consent from Writer or idrw.org
Note: If you have personal opinion and want to contribute for” MY TAKE ”on Defence matters kindly email us at [email protected]

Make partnership with european and bring siomething similar to EJ 230 with thrust victor with <1000 KG amd 110 KG+ Wet and 73+ dry. this will revolutionize our planes. Tejas shall become super tejas so as AMCA and Mig 29 and Mirages.

 

[TPFscopes]

Make partnership with european and bring siomething similar to EJ 230 with thrust victor with <1000 KG amd 110 KG+ Wet and 73+ dry. this will revolutionize our planes. Tejas shall become super tejas so as AMCA and Mig 29 and Mirages.

F414 variant will not be capable of taking AMCA to supercruise. So, India should develop a higher thurst Engine with TVC with the help of Eurojet. Also try to rope in Pratt & Whitney for bigger turboprop and turbofan Engines for airliners.

 

[square]

shouldn't engine be renamed now as " kaveri-manohar...

 

[kunal1123]

If the information given in this article is right then this will be a new era of jet engine technology in India. Or is it just the writer's hallucination in marijaouna? Gurus please throw some light on this matter, please.

this is my take all writer speculation given on news coming, but there is lot of development happen in joint development on engine for amca, but will not be surprise if that happen with France or UK( recent news speculation)

 

[kunal1123]

Make partnership with european and bring siomething similar to EJ 230 with thrust victor

see too many time ej230 can someone shared lite on ej230 all i know about Eurojet EJ200 engine

 

[TPFscopes]

If the information given in this article is right then this will be a new era of jet engine technology in India. Or is it just the writer's hallucination in marijaouna? Gurus please throw some light on this matter, please.

don't take IDRW as a credible defense news source.

 

[mayfair]

When it comes to engine tech, there are no shortcuts. No one manufacturer will part with the critical tech even in a "partnership". What it will mean is that they will supply the blackbox of components that we can warp the rest of our engine around.

We have to do this the hard way. Kaveri-Snecma is a short term fix to ensure that future LCAs fly on Kaveri and have something to fall back on should Amreeka being Amreeka, withdraw support and GE engines.

But here's hoping that we learn something out of the collaboration.

 

[NeXoft007]

idrw.org
How 90kN-Kaveri and 125kN-Kaveri Engine Projects will be Game Changer for India
6-7 minutes
SOURCE: DIGAMBAR THAKUR / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

A report prepared by Deputy Editor Manu Pubby for ” The Print ” suggests that India and France recently held discussions to develop a new Kaveri engine which will be able to generate 125Kn Thrust levels to replace current AL-31F engines on 272 Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets. India and France are already engaged in the development of a 90kN Thrust level engine which will be ready by 2019 based on India’s Kaveri K9 prototype engine. New 90kN Kaveri mostly likely will be used in India’s Tejas MK-1A to replace American GE supplied F404-GE-IN20 after burning engines.

90kN Kaveri will be mated into retired Tejas PV-1 air-frame to used as a flying test bed for the engine, 18 months turn around time and fast tracked testing once commenced will allow, India and France to a put 90kN Kaveri into production in next 5 years and will enter into Tejas MK-1A in later batches and will replace American engines in older batches once production line stabilizes . India also plans to develop a 51kN Dry thrust version of the engine to be used on India’s Ghatak UCAV Project.

GTRE a few years back had held talks with French Snecma on possible development of new K10 engine using a new Rafales M-88 core to develop a 99kN thrust engine which could power both Tejas MK-2 and AMCA fighter jets but talks failed to materialise into a collaboration but since then Tejas MK-2 has gone cold and AMCA Project came up with engine requirement of 110kN thrust class engine after Developers wanted to keep additional 10kN thrust as safety measure but 125kN Kaveri could be an attempt to kill two birds with one stone .

AL-31F engines on Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets will save India from the exorbitant amount of money which India needs to pay to Russia for Transfer of Technology license agreement for developing AL-31F engines in India and also to remove the problematic engine it self which keeps the operational availability of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI fleet lower than 65% in Indian air force.

India’s 5th Generation AMCA fighter jet project required specific tailored made 110kN thrust engine which was not easy to find since turbojet afterburning engines available in the market are not in that specific class of thrust which India wanted and could have required collaboration with International OEMs like GE or Safran to uprate their existing lineup and it was also realised that 110kN thrust class engine powered AMCA was able to Supercruise and meet Air Staff Requirements (ASR) issued by Indian Air force but development of Naval-AMCA and to meet carrier borne operations duties from an aircraft carrier, Naval-AMCA could be heavier than Air force version and 110kN thrust class engine could have lead to fall in performance for Carrier based Naval AMCA and this could be the biggest reason why India is keen on developing a new 125kN Kaveri engine .

Initial AMCA Prototypes will be powered by Ge supplied F-414INS6 engine which generates a 99kN thrust before being replaced by a 125kN Kaveri engine before it hits production. if Air force AMCA variant is able to meet ASR issued by Indian air force then IAF should be completely ok with a more power full engine and Since Navy is already having a discussion with developers of AMCA and DRDO it can be assumed that new engine requirement might have been due to Navy joining the AMCA Project.

125kN Kaveri engine will not be plug and play for Sukhoi-30MKI and will require certain modifications and changes to the airframe as well as to the engine itself, for that India might require Russian help but if Russia does refuse to help or asks for hefty amount of money then HAL and DRDO along with French will be able to replace this engines on their own just like how Chinese have been experimenting with their WS-Series of afterburning engines on their Sukhoi-27/30 and their Copies .

India somewhat is trying to replicate what China has done with in its engine development, one is to replace Russian sourced engines with locally copied engines, where locally developed WS-13 Taishan engine (86kN-90kN) will replace Klimov RD-93 turbofan (81.3 kN-98 kN ) and Shenyang WS-10 (120–140kn) will replace AL-31 series of engines (123-145 kN) for single and twin engine requirements .

off course India’s 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine will not be based on Russian technology nor illegal copies of them but will be based on Indian and western technology which will allow India to use them on other future projects if and when required. like China, if India is successful in the development of both 90kN Kaveri and 125kN Kaveri engine technology, then it will be able to uprated or down-rated this engines to meet its requirements, a 51kN derivative engine for UCAVs from 90kN Kaveri engine and may be even a 130-140kN high-bypass turbofan derivative of 125kN Kaveri engine for the future Transport aircraft project perhaps .

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Please "My Take" articles mostly stinks.

 

[no smoking]

A Historical Perspective
Seven years ago, when Indian Aero-engineers walked into the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow, they were shocked to see Chinese engineers there. The Indians had come to flight-test Kaveri, India's first indigenous jet engine. The Chinese, too, had come on a similar mission. And, the Indian engineers were worried whether the Chinese would beat them to it.
Worry was understandable, because jet-engine technology is even more exclusive than nuclear know-how. Only a few countries in the world know how to make jet engines. The market for tens of thousands of engines that power fighter planes owned by air forces across the globe is controlled by just a handful of companies—GE and Pratt & Whitney of the United States, NPO Saturn, Klimov of Russia, Rolls-Royce of the UK, Safran/Snecma of France and Eurojet of Germany. The dominance of these companies is almost complete, evident from the fact that even though Rolls-Royce admitted to have paid commission to agents in dealing with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the defence ministry could not do much because if Rolls-Royce stopped supplying engines, it would affect HAL's production of Jaguar fighter bombers.
Kaveri, which was developed at the Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), successfully completed the sub-sonic test in Moscow by flying a giant Ilyushin-76 aircraft. The Chinese test was a failure. Seven years later, however, it seems the Kaveri story is going to have a sad end, while the Chinese are making steady progress with their project.
Back from Russia, lack of funds significantly slowed down Kaveri's progress. GTRE had shortage of funds to even run the five prototype engines which have been produced so far. It was difficult to procure fuel for the engines. The Chinese story, on the other hand, turned out to be completely different. After their engineers returned with the failed engine, the Chinese government opened its purse-strings and invested more than $60 billion for developing its aerospace sector of which a significant portion was spent on the jet engine program. China has "gone crazy for making aircraft," says a recent white paper prepared by renowned aerospace scientist Roddam Narasimha.
Flush with funds, the Chinese burnt the midnight jet-fuel and put their WS-10 turbofan engine on a few prototypes of their J-10 fighters, and flew them. But they are still far from developing the engine for squadron service. India can also fly Kaveri sub-optimally, as the Chinese are doing, but we don't have test aircraft for that, until now.
Anyway, Narasimha's paper, had some effect on the then Manmohan Singh government. When GTRE asked for half a million dollars in the budget, the babus returned the request, saying it was "sub-optimal", and with the advice to ask for more. This gave GTRE hope. GTRE can still catch up with the Chinese, because they have already addressed the issues on making the engine supersonic. GTRE needs only funds and the government's free nod to continue with the development of the platform.

Very touchable story with imagination.
Only a few errors:
1. Chinese never sent their WS-10 to Moscow for test, they have their own flying test bed in China;
2. The first Chinese fighter equipped with WS-10 is not J-10 but J-11;
3. The WS-10 was put on J-11 first time in 2002;
4. There are more than 100 fighters are flying with WS-10 in daily training, drill and even harassing American spy planes.

So, this author can find a job in Bollywood.

 

[Vijyes]

The first time I heard that Kaveri is like 8 or 9 years ago, even Modi has been in power for 3 years. But still, they didn't put this engine in any fighter yet. So, is Modi gov also corrupted? It has been the similar story, Indian scientists made something good, but corrupted gov or armed forces stall their progress. The interesting thing is, after being "ready" for years, suddenly, the research community is asking help from French get the engine "Ready" in another 8 month. Do we miss something here?



That is very funny: firstly, your research community claim the engine is ready to put in the fighter for long operational test, now you tell everyone that the engine need to cut some weight.

Hello! Do you understand what the purpose of the fighter test is? If your engine is overweight, then your engine is not ready.

The first thing Modi govt did was sign a deal with Snecma. Congress had ensured that Kaveri was purposefully delayed at the behest of ISI. Now, Modi is no magician to undo the wastage of over 5 years in engine development.

F414 variant will not be capable of taking AMCA to supercruise. So, India should develop a higher thurst Engine with TVC with the help of Eurojet. Also try to rope in Pratt & Whitney for bigger turboprop and turbofan Engines for airliners.

We don't know for sure that F414 will not let AMCA supercruise. It will however make it slower than F22 which can supercruise at 1.85Mach. The F35 with 125/190kN single engine can fly at 0.9Mach in cruise. May be 65/99kN twin engines for AMCA which is 30% lighter than F35 can supercruise.

 

[TPFscopes]

We don't know for sure that F414 will not let AMCA supercruise. It will however make it slower than F22 which can supercruise at 1.85Mach. The F35 with 125/190kN single engine can fly at 0.9Mach in cruise. May be 65/99kN twin engines for AMCA which is 30% lighter than F35 can supercruise.

AMCA will only be able use slight reheat thurst to gain supercruise that is why I'm not call it as "supercruise" or pure supercruise.