Kaveri Engine

[Vijyes]

You can copy the design but what about the super alloys that go into the hot section of Jet Engines. They can't be copied. Even though AL-31s for SU-30mki are made in India the Alloys still come from Russia. The CMC machines come from Russia. Also the advance CMC machines are required to manufacture these parts are strictly controlled by western countries and do not allow them to be exported to China, Russia and India, etc.

The reason why Russian Jet Engines are smokey and have lower life is they do not have such advance CMC machines. China has managed to somehow get hold of a few of these machines and have been able to copy and manufacture such machines, hence they are now making newer engines that are less smoky than Russian ones. So it's not that easy to copy.

I understand that. But can't India make the engines made by the west in 1980? Can't India develop the same level of alloying and material science with today's education and technology?

F414 CMC (ceramic) or the EPE is not yet available. We just want the normal F414 engine made in 1990 or even the F404 made in 1980s. The alloy then were not complex

 

[kunal1123]

I understand that. But can't India make the engines made by the west in 1980? Can't India develop the same level of alloying and material science with today's education and technology?

F414 CMC (ceramic) or the EPE is not yet available. We just want the normal F414 engine made in 1990 or even the F404 made in 1980s. The alloy then were not complex

we already did it. if you compare kaveri with rd 33mk, ge f404 the thrust level and size match even kaveri is suppose to match ge414 and EJ200 but we are not able to perfect it. there can be a lot different reason (fund crunch ,no experience in engine making, no home testing facility etc etc.......) ..

 

[no smoking]

we already did it. if you compare kaveri with rd 33mk, ge f404 the thrust level and size match even kaveri is suppose to match ge414 and EJ200 but we are not able to perfect it. there can be a lot different reason (fund crunch ,no experience in engine making, no home testing facility etc etc.......) ..

Well, that means you didn’t. The key part of jet engine is not the thrust level or size but the reliability and duration: how reliable the engine can give this thrust level in certain period of time? How long can your engine keep this level of performance with minimum maintenance? At what cost?

I am pretty sure most of countries with decent industrial base can design and produce a jet engine with higher thrust level and smaller size comparing to the engines in your list. But most of them can only last hours or even minutes before burning out.

You can only claim that you make it when Kaveri starts test on a fighter. Before that, now matter how beautiful the parameter they tell you, it is meaningless.

 

[airtel]

Well, that means you didn’t. The key part of jet engine is not the thrust level or size but the reliability and duration: how reliable the engine can give this thrust level in certain period of time? How long can your engine keep this level of performance with minimum maintenance? At what cost?

I am pretty sure most of countries with decent industrial base can design and produce a jet engine with higher thrust level and smaller size comparing to the engines in your list. But most of them can only last hours or even minutes before burning out.

You can only claim that you make it when Kaveri starts test on a fighter. Before that, now matter how beautiful the parameter they tell you, it is meaningless.

Nobody claimed that kaveri is ready for mass production...... He just said that there are shortcomings in engine and we are making a good reliable new-generation engine with the help of France.

 

[TPFscopes]

Well, that means you didn’t. The key part of jet engine is not the thrust level or size but the reliability and duration: how reliable the engine can give this thrust level in certain period of time? How long can your engine keep this level of performance with minimum maintenance? At what cost?

I am pretty sure most of countries with decent industrial base can design and produce a jet engine with higher thrust level and smaller size comparing to the engines in your list. But most of them can only last hours or even minutes before burning out.

You can only claim that you make it when Kaveri starts test on a fighter. Before that, now matter how beautiful the parameter they tell you, it is meaningless.

Bro, KAVERI GTX is capable to compete M88 (in terms of output thurst) in its present form but it's not the desired specification. The hiccups only raised when we throttled up to meet desired specs.

 

[kunal1123]

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Well, that means you didn’t. The key part of jet engine is not the thrust level or size but the reliability and duration: how reliable the engine can give this thrust level in certain period of time? How long can your engine keep this level of performance with minimum maintenance? At what cost?

I am pretty sure most of countries with decent industrial base can design and produce a jet engine with higher thrust level and smaller size comparing to the engines in your list. But most of them can only last hours or even minutes before burning out.

You can only claim that you make it when Kaveri starts test on a fighter. Before that, now matter how beautiful the parameter they tell you, it is meaningless.

well i say it suppose to match and that it not able to achieve (till now) that my mean we are not able to perfect it.

 

[TPFscopes]

well i say it suppose to match and that it not able to achieve (till now) that my mean we are not able to perfect it.

Its a quite similar case as Pratt& Whitney's Engine failures on Airbus civilian airliners. We also know, a few cases of F-35 and PAK-FA engine fires.
We are struggling to get prementioned specifications for KAVERI GTX Project and we'll do it in near future.
In every project, there is a percentage of failure probability. Either its a Russian, american or even a Indian Project.
Moreover , we can assure that India product will have decent rugged and reliable efficiency.

 

[mayfair]

Kaveri was and is a learning process. There are no short cuts when it comes to gaining expertise in high level engineering.

The data points and the experience gathered as a part of this project would never have been shared by any of the manufacturers and why would they. When Kaveri becomes a mature platform tomorrow, we are not going to share the key elements with anyone else are we?

 

[Aghore_King]

Its a quite similar case as Pratt& Whitney's Engine failures on Airbus civilian airliners. We also know, a few cases of F-35 and PAK-FA engine fires.
We are struggling to get prementioned specifications for KAVERI GTX Project and we'll do it in near future.
In every project, there is a percentage of failure probability. Either its a Russian, american or even a Indian Project.
Moreover , we can assure that India product will have decent rugged and reliable efficiency.

Not to mention the fact that we're developing this project at a fraction of money which Western countries pour in such projects....

 

[no smoking]

Bro, KAVERI GTX is capable to compete M88 (in terms of output thurst) in its present form but it's not the desired specification. The hiccups only raised when we throttled up to meet desired specs.

The fact that you are inviting SNECMA to help finish Kaveri tells me otherwise. For any jet engine, singling out one or two brilliant parameters means nothing.

 

[no smoking]

Nobody claimed that kaveri is ready for mass production...... He just said that there are shortcomings in engine and we are making a good reliable new-generation engine with the help of France.

I didn't criticize that either.
I just pointed out Kaveri is not even ready for test on any fighter jet yet. Plus the news that you are asking help of France, these two togehter tells us the issue with this engine is not simply a few shortcomings.

 

[sjmaverick]

I didn't criticize that either.
I just pointed out Kaveri is not even ready for test on any fighter jet yet. Plus the news that you are asking help of France, these two togehter tells us the issue with this engine is not simply a few shortcomings.

From where did you get the idea that Kaveri is not ready for test on any fighter jet...it been ready for that stage since years. UPA never allotted a test bed for any test to happen, even today demand from research community is to provide a test bed pref. a twin engine fighter (Mig 29). Further, Kaveri sustains the thrust it produces. Real problem is spec change during the learning curve which now require reduction in some weight and increase in thrust which can be achieved with inclusion of higher technologies and fine tuning of present platform based on various test which could not be conducted earlier either due to lack of funds from corrupt govt. or lack of in-house test facilities and the biggest factor being lack Govt. intent for indigenous products.

Steps on all above counts are taken :-

Funds
Experienced consultant (France) to expedite learning curve and analyse test data
Govt willingness

What Kaveri achieved is nothing short of miracle and everyone should be proud of it. Now we need it to reach its logical conclusion to give India certified capabilities of designing fighter engines and start operating them.

It has been a long pain taking journey but the end result is worth every drop of sweat shed for it.

Wait and watch..

 

[Chinmoy]

I understand that. But can't India make the engines made by the west in 1980? Can't India develop the same level of alloying and material science with today's education and technology?

F414 CMC (ceramic) or the EPE is not yet available. We just want the normal F414 engine made in 1990 or even the F404 made in 1980s. The alloy then were not complex

What west had achieved in 80's, is because of their continuous effort undertaken from 40's. How much India had strive in matter of metallurgy? You might have friends who have done masters in IT and may be someone among them is engaged in some overseas project earning in 6 or may be 7 figures. But could you count anyone among your known circle who has talked about joining metallurgy or studying material science for that? Do you know anyone from you known circle who is their for applied physics?

 

[Vijyes]

What west had achieved in 80's, is because of their continuous effort undertaken from 40's. How much India had strive in matter of metallurgy? You might have friends who have done masters in IT and may be someone among them is engaged in some overseas project earning in 6 or may be 7 figures. But could you count anyone among your known circle who has talked about joining metallurgy or studying material science for that? Do you know anyone from you known circle who is their for applied physics?

The metallurgy, applied physics etc are studied by highly intelligent students. I have come across several such people as I studied in IIT. The most hard working students in IIT generally prefer research than jobs. But the common fad is physics, semiconductor etc. Metallurgy has a bit less takers but there are still a few people interested. Most people come to study for jobs. There are some people who are interested in research and they do take up many interesting subjects. Believe me, the ones taking up research are geniuses and not the average ones who go for IT jobs

 

[TPFscopes]

One of the reason of delay in development of Turbofan Engine is the unavailability of critical material "RHENIUM" which is not available in India.

 

[Chinmoy]

The metallurgy, applied physics etc are studied by highly intelligent students. I have come across several such people as I studied in IIT. The most hard working students in IIT generally prefer research than jobs. But the common fad is physics, semiconductor etc. Metallurgy has a bit less takers but there are still a few people interested. Most people come to study for jobs. There are some people who are interested in research and they do take up many interesting subjects. Believe me, the ones taking up research are geniuses and not the average ones who go for IT jobs

That is what I am saying.......... How many genius you came across?

Its not about being genius or average. Talent has nothing to do with interest. First of all you need to grow interest in a field, then only you could have talent in that field. We have never even given impetus to R&D in the first place itself. Many members here do root for pvt entity in defence field, but they do fail to see the fact that, these pvt players are least bothered about any home grown R&D sector. None of them had till date came forward to establish a breeding ground for TA in R&D sector. Without this, its a long way to gain what west has achieved.

 

[TPFscopes]

The fact that you are inviting SNECMA to help finish Kaveri tells me otherwise. For any jet engine, singling out one or two brilliant parameters means nothing.

Actually, SNECMA is roped into into it as the investment under offset clause of RAFALE deal.
The issue raised in Kaveri is the throttling it above 82Kn reheat thurst. The hiccups raised is an uneasy sounds and vibrations.
For your kind information, Non-reheat variant Kaveri is ready to be used in UAV project.

 

[Vijyes]

That is what I am saying.......... How many genius you came across?

Its not about being genius or average. Talent has nothing to do with interest. First of all you need to grow interest in a field, then only you could have talent in that field. We have never even given impetus to R&D in the first place itself. Many members here do root for pvt entity in defence field, but they do fail to see the fact that, these pvt players are least bothered about any home grown R&D sector. None of them had till date came forward to establish a breeding ground for TA in R&D sector. Without this, its a long way to gain what west has achieved.

Private entities are just a bunch of opportunists. They have no value other than as outsourcing agency. It is just that Indian govt doesn't want to hire people at huge salaries and perks as govt servants but instead outsource it to private partners. Private entities can also act as covers for Govt entities branded as private on behalf of a RAW agent/ex-army man etc but funded underhand by the government to create proxies to hire highly talented people instead of hiring through general examination with reservations.

As I said, there are people who go for metallurgy and physics. Physics, especially is in huge demand. Several people learn metallurgy in the process of other sciences like chemistry, electronics, communication devices etc. These are also in good demand. The average college students are not the ones you must be sampling. Go to IIT, IISC, IISER etc and you will find large number of people interested in R&D. About 10-15% of people in IITs are inclined to research. Most of them come back to India after doing pHD in US/Canada/Germany etc.

You should understand that Indian population is too high. Even if a minor percentage is interested, it will still be a huge number. Even in USA, the number of quality researchers are not at all high.

 

[Chinmoy]

Private entities are just a bunch of opportunists. They have no value other than as outsourcing agency. It is just that Indian govt doesn't want to hire people at huge salaries and perks as govt servants but instead outsource it to private partners. Private entities can also act as covers for Govt entities branded as private on behalf of a RAW agent/ex-army man etc but funded underhand by the government to create proxies to hire highly talented people instead of hiring through general examination with reservations.

Things are not like that........

Its all a domino effect. At the outset, government should have invested in this sector. But instead we had moved towards IT and Pharma, and we did good in that sector. With investment in these sectors, much interests started building up towards these and we lost our man power to them.
Now Pvt entities too jumped into the foray and invested there only. So these got mounting up and we are looking at the outcome now. Now simply asking government to invest in another sector would be not enough. We would need some serious rebuilding of capabilities.

 

[airtel]

Plus the news that you are asking help of France, these two togehter tells us the issue with this engine is not simply a few shortcomings.

Because we don't want to repeat mistakes of China.....


Even after so many theft and buying Russian technologies..... China could not develop a Good reliable Engine.

We are openly taking help from France and paying them money so that we can get a good reliable engine as soon as possible.... That is ethical and legal.

You are critising the Indian engine but you are still using this smokey Russian engine on J 20.