K-4 Missile

[Superdefender]

That's only done for secret missiles that can be tested under the guise of another.
The K4 was tested under the cover of K15 tests.
Any A5 test cannot be hidden , overground with too many preparations required.
Also we are bound by treaty to inform our neighborhood before testing a ballistic missile.

Hmm...that's why they have tested Agni-1 MRBM today instead.

 

[aditya g]

cheers sasum.

My perception of the "warhead" weight listed by DRDO is that of throw weight or weight of the last stage of the missile. I believe the "warhead" as quoted by DRDO does not include only the physics package but also the other paraphernalia as well. This is substantiated by the figures themselves, as 2 ton and 3 ton is simply too high to be true, as older generation missiles like Agni-II were quoted with 1 ton warhead weight.

Thus, I think when DRDO says "warhead" - it means "warhead plus booster bus" as you call it.

So K-4 can throw 2 tonnes at 3500 clicks. Does that mean that the range of K-4 nuclear warhead is also 3500 km? This is where I am coming from.

My post was a reaction to your conjecture. You need not have been unnecessarily sarcastic.
Probably you meant MARV (1 ton warhead contained in 2 ton booster bus). But then booster bus is not part of warhead, nor a single warhead requires booster bus. whether warhead is nuclear, chemical, biological or other is irrelevant with reference to your motor/ fuel comment . In anycase, nuclear bomb can not be delivered by MaRV booster.

 

[no smoking]

K-4 was tested atleast 2 times in 2010 and 2011 secretly according to Sandeep Unnithan of India Today though the world media didn't has slightest clue about those tests!! Then in 2014, it was again tested 2 times on Mar 24 and May 14. Since then world has come to know about K-4.

The first fully-integrated test-firing of K15 happened in Jan 2010. And now you are telling us that India was developing 2 SLBM with almost same technologies at the same time? Does DRDO have too much money but no where to spend?

More importantly, the land version of K-4---Agni3 was not finalised until Aug 2010.


It doesn't make sense.

 

[sayareakd]

The first fully-integrated test-firing of K15 happened in Jan 2010. And now you are telling us that India was developing 2 SLBM with almost same technologies at the same time? Does DRDO have too much money but no where to spend?

More importantly, the land version of K-4---Agni3 was not finalised until Aug 2010.


It doesn't make sense.

Three projects in total, which are K15, K4 and A3 SLBM. Two different teams were competing for SLBM.

 

[no smoking]

Three projects in total, which are K15, K4 and A3 SLBM. Two different teams were competing for SLBM.

I don't think so.

When K15 program started, India already had mature solid engine for short range rocket. Clearly, as the first generation SLBM, the mission of this team was to develop the technologies of under water launch.
At the same time, A3 team was working on India's first solid engine for long range rocket: 3000km+.
Clearly, K4 will be the result combing these 2 teams' achievements.

If K4/A3 team was competing with K15 team, then it is most ridiculous competition I ever heard: One is only required to do mission B while another team was struggling with mission A and B.

 

[AnantS]

India had its fair share of failed & successful Agni and Prithvi tests. And we shall continue to see their tests

 

[sayareakd]

I don't think so.

When K15 program started, India already had mature solid engine for short range rocket. Clearly, as the first generation SLBM, the mission of this team was to develop the technologies of under water launch.
At the same time, A3 team was working on India's first solid engine for long range rocket: 3000km+.
Clearly, K4 will be the result combing these 2 teams' achievements.

If K4/A3 team was competing with K15 team, then it is most ridiculous competition I ever heard: One is only required to do mission B while another team was struggling with mission A and B.

Such competitions have happen in the past. We had given three departments to make super computers. CDAC, AEC and DRDO. All three made it.

Even the Brahmos sub version got help from K15.

In all DRDO has done lot of work, but they are not showing off, specially in missile. Each Prithvi missile or A1 is work in progress.

 

[sasum]

No to reduce time of flight that's why its known as Short time of Flight system

What you are saying is a corollary of the actual purpose of evading timely detection of missile.

 

[warrior monk]

What you are saying is a corollary of the actual purpose of evading timely detection of missile.

I did not get you please rephrase ...

 

[sasum]

cheers sasum.

My perception of the "warhead" weight listed by DRDO is that of throw weight or weight of the last stage of the missile. I believe the "warhead" as quoted by DRDO does not include only the physics package but also the other paraphernalia as well. This is substantiated by the figures themselves, as 2 ton and 3 ton is simply too high to be true, as older generation missiles like Agni-II were quoted with 1 ton warhead weight.

Thus, I think when DRDO says "warhead" - it means "warhead plus booster bus" as you call it.

So K-4 can throw 2 tonnes at 3500 clicks. Does that mean that the range of K-4 nuclear warhead is also 3500 km? This is where I am coming from.

You see, you have deviated from your initial comment of " 1 ton being actual physics (nuclear/ chemical xplosive) and 2 ton being motor-fuel, out of the 3 ton warhead".
Now, you are defining warhead as 'Throw weight'..(may be you have seen it in Wikipedia) quoting drdo sources. I would like to have the link.
"Throw Weight" is the remainder of the rocket when all the stages have burnt off and essentially same as warhead+ booster vehicle or warhead+ reentry vehicle as the case may be. Booster bus can throw warheads further and guide each of them to the target while simple RV is a casing for the warhead to protect it from burn-out when it reenters atmosphere at high speed.

 

[aditya g]

Nope. I am trying to make the same point in different ways just to get through to you. Let me try again: the advertised range of DRDO missiles is less than the true range.

You see, you have deviated from your initial comment of " 1 ton being actual physics (nuclear/ chemical xplosive) and 2 ton being motor-fuel, out of the 3 ton warhead".
Now, you are defining warhead as 'Throw weight'..(may be you have seen it in Wikipedia) quoting drdo sources. I would like to have the link.
"Throw Weight" is the remainder of the rocket when all the stages have burnt off and essentially same as warhead+ booster vehicle or warhead+ reentry vehicle as the case may be. Booster bus can throw warheads further and guide each of them to the target while simple RV is a casing for the warhead to protect it from burn-out when it reenters atmosphere at high speed.

 

[sasum]

I did not get you please rephrase ...

This is an extract from the book "Defending America: The case for limited Missile Defence" by James Lindsay & Michael O' Hanlon.

 

[warrior monk]

This is an extract from the book "Defending America: The case for limited Missile Defence" by James Lindsay & Michael O' Hanlon.
View attachment 7990

Even if flying depressed trajectories it still has an apogee of 10s of kilometers which makes it visible to HF OTH Radars which uses ionosphere back scatter plus countries also have space based infrared system which can pick out the ballistic missile in its boost phase itself .

 

[sasum]

Even if flying depressed trajectories it still has an apogee of 10s of kilometers which makes it visible to HF OTH Radars which uses ionosphere back scatter plus countries also have space based infrared system which can pick out the ballistic missile in its boost phase itself .

What you are saying is true in the backdrop of present times but the concept of depressed trajectory to achieve STOF dates back to the days of SALT I & II (strategic arms reduction talk) between US & USSR in late 80s. First functional OTH radar system was deployed by GE Aerospace in early 90s. By that time, USSR collapsed and it was not a priority for America. In today's context STOF has no meaning as missiles can be picked up at boost phase itself.

 

[no smoking]

Such competitions have happen in the past. We had given three departments to make super computers. CDAC, AEC and DRDO. All three made it.

Did one of these three groups was required to start from developing their own new chip while the other 2 were simply designing computer with mature chips?

 

[AnantS]

They all sourced chips from open market, just like how china did it with its Tanhe supercomputer.

 

[warrior monk]

In today's context STOF has no meaning as missiles can be picked up at boost phase itself.

Doesn't mean they can shoot them .

 

[no smoking]

They all sourced chips from open market, just like how china did it with its Tanhe supercomputer.

So, they competed on the same ground.
But in the case of K15 vs K4, K15 team already got their mature engine, all they need to is focusing on the under-water launch tech while K4 would have to wait the engine mature first before they can do anything.

Highly likely, there was no "secret K4 test" in 2010 because the engine they need was not ready until Aug 2010.
There was no competition either. India can't afford to develop 2 type of SLBM at the same time, no one can.

 

[AnantS]

So, they competed on the same ground.
But in the case of K15 vs K4, K15 team already got their mature engine, all they need to is focusing on the under-water launch tech while K4 would have to wait the engine mature first before they can do anything.

Highly likely, there was no "secret K4 test" in 2010 because the engine they need was not ready until Aug 2010.
There was no competition either. India can't afford to develop 2 type of SLBM at the same time, no one can.

Actually India was/is working on 3 submarine launched missiles: K 15, K-4, Brahmos. Now add Nirbhay cruise missile to fray(which is still under development.) The K 15 & its launchers were revealed iirc much before 2010. Remember the launcher is designed to handle both k-15 and k-4. K 15 had completed its developmental trials before 2010. The complete missile k-4 may not have been tested in 2010, but components of missiles started having their tests by then, like its gas booster had its test from submerged pontoon by 2010.

 

[sasum]

Doesn't mean they can shoot them .

What is the status of India's Kilo Ampere Linear Injector project? I think it is meant for precisely that purpose.