K-4 Missile

[garg_bharat]

I knew Russians will develop counter to UAV. UAV is vulnerable as it needs constant communication with the satellite. This communication can be broken by saturating its radar receiver. I think this already happening in East Ukraine.

 

[no smoking]

Your guess is wrong! As I said earlier, underwater tube for K-15 and K-4 had been developed by then. in 2010, Booster for K-4 was tested in underwater pontoon. All in all indication that K-4 was very much WIP at that time.

Underwater tube for K-15 was tested in 2010 but K-4? I don't think so as K-4's was the variant of Agni-3. Agni-3 wasn't finalised until Aug 2010. Before you got the final parameters of your target missile, you can't start designing your tube and launching system. If you are not even sure the size of the missile, how can you decide the size of your tube?

Besides, it is really a waste of money to work on two different underwater launch systems simultaneously, especially when the 2 systems are using the same tech solution.

 

[AnantS]

Underwater tube for K-15 was tested in 2010 but K-4? I don't think so as K-4's was the variant of Agni-3. Agni-3 wasn't finalised until Aug 2010. Before you got the final parameters of your target missile, you can't start designing your tube and launching system. If you are not even sure the size of the missile, how can you decide the size of your tube?

Besides, it is really a waste of money to work on two different underwater launch systems simultaneously, especially when the 2 systems are using the same tech solution.

Underwater Booster was tested for K-4 in 2010. Underwater tubes for K-4 and K-15 had already been developed by then. K-15 is also known as another variant: the land based Shourya. Read about its development

your statements are laughable! You are basis your theory on your hypothesis while considering them as facts. Design not done? If they were testing K-4 boosters, it meant they already had design of missile by then.

You are missing the point underwater missiles would always be tested on land first. And you will not always hear about in the news with its correct designation.

 

[Yumdoot]

Underwater tube for K-15 was tested in 2010 but K-4? I don't think so as K-4's was the variant of Agni-3. Agni-3 wasn't finalised until Aug 2010. Before you got the final parameters of your target missile, you can't start designing your tube and launching system. If you are not even sure the size of the missile, how can you decide the size of your tube?

Indians can lie just as well as the Chinese. The enthusiast level details for these missiles have been put out since a long long time back. And probably the same source/inspiration is engaged in arming us as are engaged in arming you Chinese.

Besides, it is really a waste of money to work on two different underwater launch systems simultaneously, especially when the 2 systems are using the same tech solution.

No it is not. K-15 is not good enough for Nuclear Deterrence but it has the capability to deliver 1 ton warhead 750 km away. And there is no armada that can protect itself from an attack initiated from 750 km away from a Submarine. And tracking flotillas from 750 km away is not as challenging as it would be tracking them from 2000-3000 km away. K-15 will most likely never be deployed on Nuke Deterrence duty, except as a temporary stog gap measure (like we used Dhanush for some time).

 

[warrior monk]

I could not quite understand what you mentioned. I am not saying it is an offence weapon, but a defence weapon. Are you telling that it is not even for defence?

Its most likely usage is flash radiography for SSP (Stockpile stewardship program)
something like this but more complicated

This is an implosion pit for implosion type nuclear weapon which we have

 

[warrior monk]

Discussing KALI and DURGA system here is off topic. But one should be aware that these are not weapon system as reported by many fan boys. Instead they are testing systems just like @warrior monk explained. KALI is used extensively to test satellite systems along with its usage in HWP.

I don't want to discus it either but it is imperative to understand what KALI was built for as there is a lot of dis information about it in various forums. Anyway lets get back to K-4.

 

[warrior monk]

didn't argue if India can or cannot develop K4 on her own.
I just simply say there was no way K4 can be tested before Aug 2010.
As you said the rocket tech of K4 comes from Agni-3 which was only finalised in Aug 2010. In other words, the K4 team couldn't receive the parameters of the missile, how can they design the underwater launch equipment. So,

So my guess is:
After Aug 2010, the K4 team started their work when Agni-3 was finalised. But at the same time, they were still waiting for the K15 team to build up the primitive techs of underwater launch system. At this stage, they were just doing some lab research after all eject a 20 tone missile out of water is quite harder than a 7 tones missile. As soon as the K15 team satisfied their design, K4 team started their real project to combine 2 systems together. So, it is reasonable to believe that K4's first test should be around 2015.

It was a known fact that the launch tube on Arihant will be 2.4 meters diameter and will be containing 3 X 0.74 meter sub tubes for K-15 or 1 K-4 depends . Sagarika and Shourya are both same program ( K-15) . They have been tested many times in early 2000s on land but was first underwater tested later in 2008 probably
Before actual testing underwater they were probably testing
ejector mechanism system by means of hot gas.
Precision control of the launch event
Ejection velocity
Missile electronics and various actuators
efflux management system
etc .
K4 is Agni 3 SL with all stage C-C epoxy composite . Both are one . Its missile tube has been existent since long so its not difficult to use the data points from K-15 underwater program launch program in K4 /Agni-3 SL with a more powerful ejector mechanism .

ATV missile launch tube

 

[sasum]

DRDO working on Star Wars-like weapons
Rajat Pandit | TNN | 1 mins ago

Astormtrooper in front of a to-scale 'Star Wars' TIE fighter. DRDO is working on Star Wars-like weapons. (AP photo for representation purpose)​

New Delhi: From "heat rays" in H G Wells' science fiction novel 'The War of the Worlds' of 1898 to galactic super-lasers in George Lucas' continuing 'Star Wars' film saga, concentrated energy weapons have been fantasised about for long without them becoming operationally viable.
But advanced militaries now think directed energy weapons (DEWs) like high-energy lasers and high-powered microwaves will become strategic game-changers in the not-too-distant a future. While the US, Russia, China and others are leagues ahead in the race to develop advanced DEWs, though their actual operational deployment is still some distance away, India is also trying to make some headway towards such futuristic weapons.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is already tom-tomming its ongoing development of a 10-kilowatt DEW against UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle) like targets, with "the establishment of critical technologies of precision tracking/pointing and laser beam combination".
The "system" has been tested up to a range of 800 meters at its Hyderabad-based Centre for High Energy Systems and Sciences (CHESS), and was also demonstrated to the armed forces at the Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory's firing range at Ramgarh (Haryana) in September last year.

Development of DEWs and electromagnetic pulse (EMP) weapons has been identified as a top-priority area in the 15-year "technology perspective and capability roadmap" chalked out by the defence ministry, as reported by TOI earlier.
The DRDO, often criticised for huge time and cost overruns in its projects, says smaller systems like laser-based ordnance disposal of IEDs and mines, hand-held laser dazzlers to overpower armed terrorists and vehicle-mounted laser dazzlers for controlling unruly mobs have already been developed.
But the real challenge will be in achieving the declared aim to develop solid-state laser DEWs for aircraft and warships, which can destroy enemy ballistic missiles in their "boost phase itself", somewhat akin to what is already being tested by the US.
The DRDO's Laser Science & Technology Centre is working on an array of systems from "chemical oxygen iodine lasers" to "high-power fiber lasers" for st-rategic uses, which includes a 25-kilowatt laser to take on a ballistic missile du-ring its "terminal phase" at a distance of 5-7 km.
All this has gained momentum after the government in February 2014 sanctioned Rs 115 crore for de-velopment of "experimental technology modules for directed energy laser syst-ems" by CHESS, with the project completion date being set for July 2017.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Why it is unrealistic? Do you know that Agni III has a 2.4 ton payload?

Probably because Agni-VI is not going to have 3tn payload, it is unrealistic.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

It carries a nuclear warhead genius. Our atom bombs are not north Korean level ... They should weight barely a few hundred kg.

We have planned A VI with Multiple warhead.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

K-4 SLBM test from Vizag on Mar 07 was not its maiden test!! - (confirmed news)

No no,

There are multiple test carried out before last test. DRDO has released an 11 second video in 2015. Even in 2013, some Naval officers were dismissed for leaking K4 test information.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

No K4 is similar to A4. Both have 1.3 m dia motor and almost similar weight of 17 ton.

It was a known fact that the launch tube on Arihant will be 2.4 meters diameter and will be containing 3 X 0.74 meter sub tubes for K-15 or 1 K-4 depends . Sagarika and Shourya are both same program ( K-15) . They have been tested many times in early 2000s on land but was first underwater tested later in 2008 probably
Before actual testing underwater they were probably testing
ejector mechanism system by means of hot gas.
Precision control of the launch event
Ejection velocity
Missile electronics and various actuators
efflux management system
etc .
K4 is Agni 3 SL with all stage C-C epoxy composite . Both are one . Its missile tube has been existent since long so its not difficult to use the data points from K-15 underwater program launch program in K4 /Agni-3 SL with a more powerful ejector mechanism .


View attachment 8027



View attachment 8027

ATV missile launch tube

a

 

[Indx TechStyle]

No K4 is similar to A4. Both have 1.3 m dia motor and almost similar weight of 17 ton.




a

But K4 tackles water pressure.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

But K4 tackles water pressure.

Naturally else how can it be a submarine fire missile?

 

[warrior monk]

No K4 is similar to A4. Both have 1.3 m dia motor and almost similar weight of 17 ton.

Nobody knows its correct diameter but it significantly larger than 1.3 meters .

In 2013
http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...Undersea-Launch/2013/12/10/article1937718.ece

K 4 : Diameter 1.3 meters , Height 12 M and Weight-17 Tonne , Warhead -2 Tonne



In 2016 recent test reported by the same journalist
http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...Roaring-Success/2016/03/16/article3329130.ece

K-4 : Height -10 M , Weight- 20 tonne , Warhead-2 tonne

Do you still think K-4 has 1.3 M diameter ?? We do not have solid propellants,oxidizer- binders and catalysts (HTBP/ AP) having specific impulse more than 278 secs . In fact I don't think anyone in the world has solid propellants with more specific impulse than 280 secs . So it can be safely assumed that K-4 has diameter more than 2 M. Plus it will carry a PBCV with multiple warheads so it will probably have 2 meter or more diameter.

 

[no smoking]

It was a known fact that the launch tube on Arihant will be 2.4 meters diameter and will be containing 3 X 0.74 meter sub tubes for K-15 or 1 K-4 depends . Sagarika and Shourya are both same program ( K-15) . They have been tested many times in early 2000s on land but was first underwater tested later in 2008 probably

K4 is Agni 3 SL with all stage C-C epoxy composite . Both are one . Its missile tube has been existent since long so its not difficult to use the data points from K-15 underwater program launch program in K4 /Agni-3 SL with a more powerful ejector mechanism.

Certainly, K4 can adopt the underwater ejecting technology developed from K-15 that is normal for everyone else.
But without the size and weight of missile you are going to eject from tube, you can't decide the parameters of your tube: the volume of the gas, the pressure of gas, the speed of flow and you can't even decide the posture of your missile pushed out of water.

The experience of countries developed their own SLBM shows that you have to make significant change of your underwater ejection system when you jump from a small and light missile to a bigger and heavier one.

 

[no smoking]

You are missing the point underwater missiles would always be tested on land first. And you will not always hear about in the news with its correct designation.

You are missing the point is that underwater system (not the missile) won't be called mature until you shoot it from a submarine successfully. So far, we haven't hear that K-15 is tested from a submarine yet.

I don't know if India scientists think they are smarter than others. All I know is every other countries only started their next generation system when the lighter one matured. And the fact is even with a matured lighter and smaller system ready, they still faced huge difficulties in developing a new system for the larger and heavier missile.

Let's see the example of Chinese and Russian's. They both already had SLBM tech when they were trying to put their JL-2 and BULAVA onto the submarine. And most of the problems are related to -- underwater system.

 

[no smoking]

Why it is unrealistic? Do you know that Agni III has a 2.4 ton payload?

If you compare K-4 to every other SLBM of other countries in service:

Weight range payload
Bulava 36.8t 8000km 1.15t
M51 52t 8000-10000km 1.15t-1.5t
D-5 59t 7360km 2.8t
JL-2 42t 7200km 1.5t
K-4 17t 3500km 2.5t

You will find that K-4 is the most advanced missile among all. Far ahead of everyone else.
If that is possible? Maybe.
But if you compare to India's own missile: Agni-5, you will wonder why it is not so impressive?

Agni-5 50t 5000km 1.5t

Just keep this in mind: K-4 is variant of Agni-3.

 

[garg_bharat]

As somebody mentioned earlier, 2.5t looks like re-entry vehicle weight rather than the warhead weight. It may be just warhead weight in case of A-5. Specs are sometimes not accurate as very limited information is released by DRDO.

I would agree that K-4 system is not yet ready for deployment. However K-15 may be ready. This statement is based on public reports.

 

[AnantS]

You are missing the point is that underwater system (not the missile) won't be called mature until you shoot it from a submarine successfully. So far, we haven't hear that K-15 is tested from a submarine yet.

I don't know if India scientists think they are smarter than others. All I know is every other countries only started their next generation system when the lighter one matured. And the fact is even with a matured lighter and smaller system ready, they still faced huge difficulties in developing a new system for the larger and heavier missile.

Let's see the example of Chinese and Russian's. They both already had SLBM tech when they were trying to put their JL-2 and BULAVA onto the submarine. And most of the problems are related to -- underwater system.

I dont know if chinese they are the greatest minds after Edison. That they are trying to wreck their brains from sketchy information in the net and trying to derive conclusions. Your army peeps would more professional, but I sincerely wish that they have more people like you to do the threat assessment. India is not going to tell you test missile's true make-type before/after test. They may test Prithvi and release picture of Agni and that too after an year or two. You will hear about it when they tell you and what they want to tell you.

Now comes your next part, proofing SLBM tech, SLBM on Arihant is yet to be test fired, as far as we know of whatever sketchy information we have from media. India will sure have its share of learning from exercise, as SLBM tech consultancy is not available from outside. So is India behind Russia,UK,France,US, or for that matter China in SLBM experience. Yes of course it is. But its a start, and India will surely become more experienced over the years and next iteration of submarines and missiles.