J20 Stealth Fighter

[rockdog]

Problem is that whatever official info about this is ... it's in classified files and as such no official evidence per se .. only snippets ..

Classic definition of Conspiracy theory:

Conspiracy theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyway, i don't feedback any off topic of this J20 thread.

 

[Kumata]

Classic definition of Conspiracy theory:

Conspiracy theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyway, i don't feedback any off topic of this J20 thread.

Milestones: 1945–1952 - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

For more than twenty years after the Chinese revolution of 1949, there were few contacts, limited trade and no diplomatic ties between the two countries. Until the 1970s, the United States continued to recognize the Republic of China, located on Taiwan, as China’s true government and supported that government’s holding the Chinese seat in the United Nations.

 

[johnq]

'Not So Invisible After All': Su-30 Manages to Detect Top Chinese Stealth Jet

China's fifth-generation Chengdu J-20, its most advanced fighter jet, has recently successfully completed its first maritime combat training. The latest Chinese jet has been in development since 2002 and entered into service in 2017.

sputniknews.com

A Sukhoi Su-30MKI (NATO reporting name Flanker-C) of the Indian Air Force reportedly managed to detect the latest Chinese Chengdu J-20 jet fighter, which is supposed to be a top-of-the-line stealth aircraft operated by the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), reports Indian Defence Research Wing.
"The Sukhoi's radar can see them. The new Chinese jets are not so invisible after all. No special technology is required to detect the J-20, as it can be detected by ordinary radar stations," Indian Air Force commander Arup Shaha said.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

India is superpower in subcontinent, but regional power to the world. The funny thing is, in subcontinent all India's neiborghs are not connecting each other by land, they are surronding with India in all direction, which means they are very hard to form a union to counter India, it gives natrually advantage for India to take care each of them....

No one has such geographic advantage in any region like India.

you over emphasize the Importance of J-20

J-20 is a very expensive machine that only burns money, the average Chinese does not make 20000 a year, and I can assure you operating J-20 is very expensive.

The latest Pentagon selected acquisition report on the program put the cost per flying hour of the F-35 at around $30,000 per flying hour in 2012 dollars, compared to around $25,500 per hour for an older-generation F-16 fighter. Fuel cost changes could boost that sum in inflation-adjusted dollars.

The cost of buying new jets has come down and is expected to reach $80 million per aircraft by 2020, but more work is needed to reduce the cost of operating the jets, Hauck said. He said the Air Force wanted to cut the operating cost by 38 percent.

European F-35 fighter jet users push to drive down operating costs

The U.S. military and European operators of the radar-evading F-35 fighter jet have agreed to work together more closely to help lower the cost of operating the new warplanes as growing numbers arrive in Europe, officials said.

www.reuters.com

You are over estimating again Chinese capabilities and basically you can not understand what is J-20

J-20 very likely costs between 50 to 40 millions dollars in a very moderate price,

The operating cost must be in the $ 20000 dollars range per fly hour.

Average Chinese do not even make $20000 dollars in a year, an average pilots flies 120 hours a year that is around more than USD 2400,000 dollars per pilot.

add 60 aircraft, so for a 60 J-20s flying each and other daty an hour by a year is around 150 million dollars a year.

Now you seem to think China is a great power and Brazil a little player, your conclusion is pretty wrong.

J-20s are just burning money and brazil sells jets

Embraer E-Jet family
E170 / E175 / E190 / E195

Produced	2001–present
Number built	1,573 As of 30 September 2020[1]
Program cost	US$850 million (June 1999)[2]
Unit cost	E170: US$41.0 million (2016)[3] E175: US$45.7 million (2017)[4] E190: US$50.6 million (2017)[5] E195: US$53.5 million (2017)[6

Embraer E-Jet family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Emb-170 very likely costs around the same price of J-20, in a moderate price estimate.

China has built 60 aircraft that make no money, Brazil has sold 1573.

So tell me who is the small player?

 

[johnq]

The J-20 is an example of mimicry to avoid the predator as found in nature. It superficially resembles a 5th generation fighter, but does not possess any of the attributes of a 5th generation fighter. Its RCS is too great even from the front to avoid detection, due to exposed radar/radome (since PLAAF does not yet possess the technology to hide it from enemy radar), canopy and canards among other features. Its engines are not powerful or reliable enough. Its weapons and avionics are from a previous generation. I think it's a very Sun Tzu type of move to fool the enemy. And the western analysts go happily along with the charade to write articles, as well as to give the Pentagon another excuse to ask the US Congress for more money.
It has already been tracked by SU-30MKI radar over the Himalayas from hundreds of kilometers away. Its radar, avionics and weapons are primitive, which is why China is still buying SU-35 from Russia. And it can't even dogfight due to poor thrust to weight ratio and no cannon. It needs to light up its afterburners just to turn. Its engines are less powerful, older generation, less reliable Russian engines that lose even more thrust in colder areas, and will probably break down even more often when operating from high altitudes.

 

[Kumata]

The J-20 is an example of mimicry to avoid the predator as found in nature. It superficially resembles a 5th generation fighter, but does not possess any of the attributes of a 5th generation fighter. Its RCS is too great even from the front to avoid detection, due to exposed radar/radome (since PLAAF does not yet possess the technology to hide it from enemy radar), canopy and canards among other features. Its engines are not powerful or reliable enough. Its weapons and avionics are from a previous generation. I think it's a very Sun Tzu type of move to fool the enemy. And the western analysts go happily along with the charade to write articles, as well as to give the Pentagon another excuse to ask the US Congress for more money.
It has already been tracked by SU-30MKI radar over the Himalayas from hundreds of kilometers away. Its radar, avionics and weapons are primitive, which is why China is still buying SU-35 from Russia. And it can't even dogfight due to poor thrust to weight ratio and no cannon. It needs to light up its afterburners just to turn. Its engines are less powerful, older generation, less reliable Russian engines that lose even more thrust in colder areas, and will probably break down even more often when operating from high altitudes.

you forget to mention the combat radius of 1200 kms without external fuel tanks ... with external fuel tanks it is 2800 kms compared to SU30 MKI with a combat radius of 3000 KMs without any external fuels ...

Nobody knows how it behaves in high alt place like tibet where it will be needed most while SU & Mirages rules there...

 

[skywatcher]

J20 —— 10 years

 

[MiG-29SMT]

A twin-seat variation of China's J-20 stealth fighter jet and a J-20 version equipped with a domestically made engine have been spotted for the first time in official videos recently released by its developer and the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force, only days before the 10th anniversary on Monday of the aircraft's maiden flight.

The twin-seat variation of the J-20 could be used for electronic warfare, command of wingman drones or bombing, and the domestic engine means the J-20 is no longer reliant on Russian engines, analysts said on Sunday.

Depicted by computer-generated imagery, four twin-seat J-20 variations were seen flying in formation in a video released by state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC), the developer of the aircraft, on Friday, in celebration of the 10th anniversary on Monday of the original aircraft's maiden flight.

This is the first time the twin-seat J-20 has been featured in an official promotional source, although media reports had speculated about its existence for years. It will also make the J-20 variation the world's first twin-seat stealth fighter jet, media reported.

By adding another seat to the cockpit, the aircraft could, in exchange for some level of stealth capability and maneuverability, carry a second pilot designated for more complicated tasks such as electronic warfare, command of wingman drones or tactical bombing, a Chinese military analyst told the Global Times on Sunday, requesting anonymity.

This means the twin-seat J-20 could spawn more variations that are equipped with devices corresponding to these tasks, the analyst predicted.

AVIC's video did not elaborate on the twin-seat J-20 or its designed functions.

In a separate video, released on Tuesday by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force for its pilot recruitment program, Chinese media outlets identified a J-20 that is equipped with domestically developed WS-10C engines instead of imported Russian engines.

This is also the first time the PLA Air Force has confirmed that a J-20 equipped with a domestically made engine has entered service, Passion News, a media outlet under k618.cn, a news portal run by the Communist Youth League of China Central Committee, reported on Friday.

Designed with stealth capability, the WS-10C engines provide more powerful thrust than the Russian engines previously used on the J-20, since the Chinese engines use full authority digital engine control technology and improved afterburners, the Passion News report said.

Domestic engines will not only let the J-20 become stronger, but also enable the mass production of the aircraft without the limitation of imported engines, analysts said, noting that the J-20 will eventually use the WS-15, an even more powerful domestically developed engine.

Twin-seat variation & domestic engine-equipped version of J-20 make official appearances - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

 

[no smoking]

What is the "next"?
Hope we are not disappointed this time!

 

[rockdog]

J20 —— 10 years
View attachment 73358

Yep, i still remember the moment when saw it took off at 2011.01.11

 

[rockdog]

you over emphasize the Importance of J-20

J-20 is a very expensive machine that only burns money, the average Chinese does not make 20000 a year, and I can assure you operating J-20 is very expensive.

The latest Pentagon selected acquisition report on the program put the cost per flying hour of the F-35 at around $30,000 per flying hour in 2012 dollars, compared to around $25,500 per hour for an older-generation F-16 fighter. Fuel cost changes could boost that sum in inflation-adjusted dollars.

The cost of buying new jets has come down and is expected to reach $80 million per aircraft by 2020, but more work is needed to reduce the cost of operating the jets, Hauck said. He said the Air Force wanted to cut the operating cost by 38 percent.

European F-35 fighter jet users push to drive down operating costs

The U.S. military and European operators of the radar-evading F-35 fighter jet have agreed to work together more closely to help lower the cost of operating the new warplanes as growing numbers arrive in Europe, officials said.

www.reuters.com

You are over estimating again Chinese capabilities and basically you can not understand what is J-20

J-20 very likely costs between 50 to 40 millions dollars in a very moderate price,

The operating cost must be in the $ 20000 dollars range per fly hour.

Average Chinese do not even make $20000 dollars in a year, an average pilots flies 120 hours a year that is around more than USD 2400,000 dollars per pilot.

add 60 aircraft, so for a 60 J-20s flying each and other daty an hour by a year is around 150 million dollars a year.

Now you seem to think China is a great power and Brazil a little player, your conclusion is pretty wrong.

J-20s are just burning money and brazil sells jets

Embraer E-Jet family
E170 / E175 / E190 / E195

Produced	2001–present
Number built	1,573 As of 30 September 2020[1]
Program cost	US$850 million (June 1999)[2]
Unit cost	E170: US$41.0 million (2016)[3] E175: US$45.7 million (2017)[4] E190: US$50.6 million (2017)[5] E195: US$53.5 million (2017)[6

Embraer E-Jet family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Emb-170 very likely costs around the same price of J-20, in a moderate price estimate.

China has built 60 aircraft that make no money, Brazil has sold 1573.

So tell me who is the small player?

1. Chinese military industry follow the laws that they are only allowed to keep 5% profit during domestic procurement. It's not like greedy LM and Boeing who hijack the US government, in long run pricing of our fighters will be always easonable, it also applies the subsystems and misilles for daily operations.

2. Except few subsystems and weapons. most weapons are getting indigenous now, which means you don't use USD to evaluate the prices of them, even you gave some kind like 70% discount. Using PPP will be suitable instead of GDP, finally the pricing would be 50% or 30% with counterparts. It already applied on Warships and submarines we sold to Pakistan, Thailand and Malaysia, they ae 1/3 of the pricing with similar features.

3. If US's F22+F35 projects will finally end around 2045, they would have 3000 5g fighters. By that time, China already has like 160% PPP to USA or 130% GDP; If we keep like 2% of GDP/PPP as military budget, give me a reason why we shouldn't keep a 2000 5G fighter (J20 +J31A) squad?

4. Russia's GDP is almost same as our Canton province in 2019, they are buidling 20-40 Su57s, China's current GDP is like 10-15 times, we have enough money.

5. Brazil's aero industry was good but almost like some kind of legacy before the globalization and they are looking for buyers to sell company. This nation is almost de-industrilizaed for decades. The Chinese top economists worried about China fall into the "mid income trap/Latino Trap" for years after the per GDP passes 10,000 GDP. Luckily we have strong manufacture bases and we don't need worry about it. Don't forget during WorldCup and Olympic games they were supported by China's power grid companies, Brazil's industry is not in good situation which means its pricing system is not reasonable. So making Brazil as example is not suitable, they don't producre modern fighter any more, they buy luxury EU stuff now.

 

[Cruise missile]

1. Chinese military industry follow the laws that they are only allowed to keep 5% profit during domestic procurement. It's not like greedy LM and Boeing who hijack the US government, in long run pricing of our fighters will be always easonable, it also applies the subsystems and misilles for daily operations.

2. Except few subsystems and weapons. most weapons are getting indigenous now, which means you don't use USD to evaluate the prices of them, even you gave some kind like 70% discount. Using PPP will be suitable instead of GDP, finally the pricing would be 50% or 30% with counterparts. It already applied on Warships and submarines we sold to Pakistan, Thailand and Malaysia, they ae 1/3 of the pricing with similar features.

3. If US's F22+F35 projects will finally end around 2045, they would have 3000 5g fighters. By that time, China already has like 160% PPP to USA or 130% GDP; If we keep like 2% of GDP/PPP as military budget, give me a reason why we shouldn't keep a 2000 5G fighter (J20 +J31A) squad?

4. Russia's GDP is almost same as our Canton province in 2019, they are buidling 20-40 Su57s, China's current GDP is like 10-15 times, we have enough money.

5. Brazil's aero industry was good but almost like some kind of legacy before the globalization and they are looking for buys to sell it. This nation is almost de-industrilizaed for decades. The Chinese top economists worried about China fall into the "mid income trap/Latino Trap" for years after the per GDP passes 10,000 GDP. Luckily we have strong manufacture bases and we don't need worry about it. Don't forget during WorldCup and Olympic games they were supported by China's power grid companies, Brazil's industry is not in good situation which means its pricing system is not reasonable. So making Brazil as example is not suitable, they don't producre modern fighter any more, they buy luxury EU stuff now.

Mid income trap is also what we are fearing right now.

 

[rockdog]

Mid income trap is also what we are fearing right now.

Yes, it's right time. Chinese top brains talked about it around we have $3000, while Mid income trap happens after $USD8000.

Manufacture is the key, but your government blocked RCEP, if your companies don't try to fight with forgein competitors, in long run will be quite difficult.

 

[johnq]

For Hindi-speaking viewers:

 

[MiG-29SMT]

1. Chinese military industry follow the laws that they are only allowed to keep 5% profit during domestic procurement. It's not like greedy LM and Boeing who hijack the US government, in long run pricing of our fighters will be always easonable, it also applies the subsystems and misilles for daily operations.

2. Except few subsystems and weapons. most weapons are getting indigenous now, which means you don't use USD to evaluate the prices of them, even you gave some kind like 70% discount. Using PPP will be suitable instead of GDP, finally the pricing would be 50% or 30% with counterparts. It already applied on Warships and submarines we sold to Pakistan, Thailand and Malaysia, they ae 1/3 of the pricing with similar features.

3. If US's F22+F35 projects will finally end around 2045, they would have 3000 5g fighters. By that time, China already has like 160% PPP to USA or 130% GDP; If we keep like 2% of GDP/PPP as military budget, give me a reason why we shouldn't keep a 2000 5G fighter (J20 +J31A) squad?

4. Russia's GDP is almost same as our Canton province in 2019, they are buidling 20-40 Su57s, China's current GDP is like 10-15 times, we have enough money.

5. Brazil's aero industry was good but almost like some kind of legacy before the globalization and they are looking for buyers to sell company. This nation is almost de-industrilizaed for decades. The Chinese top economists worried about China fall into the "mid income trap/Latino Trap" for years after the per GDP passes 10,000 GDP. Luckily we have strong manufacture bases and we don't need worry about it. Don't forget during WorldCup and Olympic games they were supported by China's power grid companies, Brazil's industry is not in good situation which means its pricing system is not reasonable. So making Brazil as example is not suitable, they don't producre modern fighter any more, they buy luxury EU stuff now.

I suggest you read more.

China has only two options one is the Yuan is cheap and salaries are Cheap, the others the Yuan is expensive but salaries become expensive see the case of Japan or South Korea.
Consider comodities are priced in dollars and tariffs are designed to stop dumping goods.

So if China has a cheap Yuan now, means salaries are lower than in the USA.

The F-22 was only produced in 187 pieces because operating it is pretty expensive, some say USD $ 50,000 dollars a flying hour, so basically 5 flying hours of F-22 equals to buy a house.


Chinese goods are cheap because comodities are priced in Dollars and as long as China does not compete directly they allow that. Huawei is an example where China becomes a competitor so they say they ban it or apply tariffs as Trump did.

So in few words while J-20 might be cheaper USD $50 million dollars and a fly hour of UDS $20,000 dollars.

For average Chinese is a lot fo money.


Now read more Embraer only was selling the E-jets line, not the private jets line.
But it was not selling it completly since they still were going to get some revenue.

Brazil contrary to your statement is not a deindustrilized nation, pretty much they are a agricultural power because they design and build their own machinery and while people associate Brazil with Soccer they are an aerospace power.


however that is another topic.



China is not like you think, China is a military power, more powerful than Brazil, that is true, but in civil aviation Brazil has a more powerful aerospace industry simple because they build and sell more jets.

Only of Phenom, Brazil has made more than China J-10s, and Phenoms are sold around the world.
JH-7 and J-8II are not build in higher numbers than ERJ-145.


China with ARJ-21 has not even made more than Brazil of Emb-120.

However the difference stands because China wants to have military jets at the cost of sanctions or the posibility of being a USA enemy.

Brazil chose civil aviation and partnereship with the USA and Europe.


So pretty much Brazil is a western ally and a western nation, in fact Brazil is a nation very similar to the USA ethnically.

Melbourne, Florida, February 19, 2020 – Embraer Executive Jets delivered 51 Phenom 300 and Phenom 300E light jets in 2019, making it the most delivered light jet of the year. This is the eighth consecutive year that the Phenom 300 achieves this mark, having accrued more than 530 deliveries since entering the market in December 2009. The information was released today by the General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA).

Portal Embraer

embraer.com

 

[johnq]

you forget to mention the combat radius of 1200 kms without external fuel tanks ... with external fuel tanks it is 2800 kms compared to SU30 MKI with a combat radius of 3000 KMs without any external fuels ...

Nobody knows how it behaves in high alt place like tibet where it will be needed most while SU & Mirages rules there...

When you use engines with the same dry thrust as on a flanker on a J-20 that weighs 3000 kg more, the range will be adversely affected.
The PLAAF was lying a decade ago about WS-10 engines on the J-20, while the operational J-20 continued to use the AL-31. A decade of lies later, operational J-20 are still flying with AL-31 engines. They are lying once more about replacing Russian engines through Chinese propaganda outlets. These Chinese propaganda outlets are not trustworthy at all. PLAAF claims about J-20 RCS are also rubbish, which is why it has been tracked by SU-30MKI radar from hundreds of kilometers away. The PLAAF still has no way to hide the radar reflection off the J-20 radar/radome, canopy, canards, and other nonstealthy features, so it will be visible to ordinary radar even from the front. Besides that, the avionics on the J-20 are primitive, which is why PLAAF continues to import SU-35s from Russia in spite of the avionics on the SU-35 being 2 decades old and severely downgraded. The avionics on the J-20 are even worse than on the SU-35, in spite of the lies and propaganda of the PLAAF.
The lies of the PLAAF can also be seen in their claim that the J-20 can go over mach 2.5 when the use of DSI makes that impossible. Even the canards will not allow that. The only thing CCP propaganda outlets are good at is putting lipstick on a pig, and that is all the J-20 is at the end of the day: An overweight pig with weak, unreliable engines and poor avionics that can be spotted by enemy fighter radar from hundreds of kilometers away. The rest is CCP/PLAAF propaganda and psy ops designed to win the war without fighting by intimidating the enemy with lies about PLAAF's and J-20's superiority; i.e. Sun Tzu tactics.

80 Years From Invention, China Is Struggling With Jet Engines

The jet engine has a long and storied history. Its development occurred spontaneously amongst several unrelated groups in the early 20th Century. Frank Whittle submitted a UK patent on a design in …

hackaday.com

Early revisions of the resulting WS-10 engine have fallen well short of design goals which aimed to match the Su-27’s AL-31 engine on thrust output and reliability. Overhauls were required every 30 hours, versus 400 hours for the Russian benchmark. Anecdotal evidence suggests the WS-10 also takes longer to produce thrust.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

 

[FOXBAT ALOK]

China’s J-20 fighter aircraft will stop using Russian engine

SOURCE : defenceview.in



Chinese social media have been talking about replacing the engine currently installed on the new generation of J-20 fighters for several days. will replace it with a modernized motor of its own production.

“The Chinese WS-10C engine, a modified version of the WS-10 engine, is not inferior to the Russian AL-31F engine.” This was reported to the South China Morning Post by a source in the Chinese military circles.
“China cannot rely on a Russian engine because Russia has asked China to buy more Su-35 fighters in exchange for deals with AL-31F engines,” an insider said.

In his opinion: “With the exception of the advantage of a longer combat range, the Su-35 (and its components – radar, navigation system and other electronics) is inferior to Chinese aircraft such as the J-16 strike fighter.”
China became the first foreign buyer of the Su-35 aircraft. The PLA spent $ 2.5 billion on the purchase of 24 Sukhoi Su-35 heavy single-seat multi-role fighters, the final batch of which was delivered at the end of 2018.

WS-10 engine used in the Chinese J-10 and J-11 fighters

Online photos posted online indicate China has produced a new batch of second-generation J-20 prototypes for flight testing, according to a report posted on the War Industry Black Technology WeChat account by Shenzhen-based Quantum Defense Cloud, a military company.
A military insider confirmed that the new J-20 prototype was powered by two WS-10C engines, but said the modified engine remained a temporary choice for the J-20.

“The use of the WS-10C to replace Russian engines was due to the fact that the WS-15 did not pass final evaluation in 2019,” said an insider.
“The Air Force is unhappy with the final results, requiring engine technicians to rework the engine until it meets all standards, such as the F119 engine used in the American F-22 Raptor”.
A modified version of the J-20B entered series production last June after Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), the developer of the J-20, opened its fourth production line in 2019. Each line can produce one J -20 per month.

Russian AL-31F engine and Chinese WS-10C engine

But these production J-20s will continue to be powered by Russian engines because, according to an insider, the WS-10C will take at least a year to test.
At the beginning of its deployment to the Chinese Air Force in 2017, the J-20 used the WS-10B, a variant of the WS-10, as an intermediate engine. The WS-10B is a modified version of the WS-10 Taihang engine that was developed for the fourth generation J-10 and J-11 fighters.

Chinese engineers have been developing WS-15 high-thrust turbofan engines for the J-20 since 2006, but this work has stalled for now. Among the problems is an engine explosion during ground tests in 2015.
The explosion showed that the WS-15 is unreliable, and there is still no fundamental solution to overcome this problem … which is why the J-20 now uses WS-10B engines.
One of the main reasons for the explosion was inadequate quality control of monocrystalline turbine blades, a key component for such a powerful turbofan engine. In fact, most likely the point is not controlled, but the inability to work with such technologies.
Chinese specialists can produce ultra-modern quality single crystal turbine blades, focusing on one specific element. But they still have not managed to turn advanced technology into a standard product for mass production. This is a bottleneck that takes more time to overcome after countless experiments and tests.

 

[johnq]

The article above clearly states that the WS-10C will take another year to test before it can be deployed, unlike the CCP propaganda articles which keep lying that the WS-10C is deployed. The above article is wrong about the WS-10B. The WS-10B was only put on display prototypes because it was not reliable enough, while the production J-20s continued to use Russian AL-31 engines. Otherwise there would not be articles in the media about ditching Russian AL-31 engines for the J-20. The fact remains that the J-20 is overweight by 3000 kg for the dry thrust produced by engines it still uses on its prototypes, even by 1970s SU-27 standards. Its radar and avionics are also more primitive than the 2 decade old and severely downgraded radar and avionics on the SU-35, which is why China is ordering even more SU-35 on top of the 24 it has already ordered. Its RCS is too great to avoid detection from normal fighter radar because China does not have the technology to hide the J-20 radar, radome, canopy, canards and other non-stealthy features from enemy aircraft's radar, which is why it was tracked by SU-30MKI radar from hundreds of kilometers away, according to official IAF accounts. The J-20's weapons' seekers are also primitive as they are copied from severely downgraded Russian seekers using 3 decade old technology, and will be easily jammed by modern western ECM.

80 Years From Invention, China Is Struggling With Jet Engines

The jet engine has a long and storied history. Its development occurred spontaneously amongst several unrelated groups in the early 20th Century. Frank Whittle submitted a UK patent on a design in …

hackaday.com

Initial production models of China’s latest J-20 stealth fighter used the upgraded WS-10B, but production models appear to still rely on Russian Saturn AL-31 engines.

This is because the PLAAF found the WS-10B to be too unreliable to put on production models, which is why the PLAAF still uses Russian AL-31 engines on the J-20, making it severely overweight (by 3000 kg even by 1970s SU-27 standards) for the dry thrust produced by the engines, and adversely affecting range and other performance parameters.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

The article above clearly states that the WS-10C will take another year to test before it can be deployed, unlike the CCP propaganda articles which keep lying that the WS-10C is deployed. The above article is wrong about the WS-10B. The WS-10B was only put on display prototypes because it was not reliable enough, while the production J-20s continued to use Russian AL-31 engines. Otherwise there would not be articles in the media about ditching Russian AL-31 engines for the J-20. The fact remains that the J-20 is overweight by 3000 kg for the dry thrust produced by engines it still uses on its prototypes, even by 1970s SU-27 standards. Its radar and avionics are also more primitive than the 2 decade old and severely downgraded radar and avionics on the SU-35, which is why China is ordering even more SU-35 on top of the 24 it has already ordered. Its RCS is too great to avoid detection from normal fighter radar because China does not have the technology to hide the J-20 radar, radome, canopy, canards and other non-stealthy features from enemy aircraft's radar, which is why it was tracked by SU-30MKI radar from hundreds of kilometers away, according to official IAF accounts. The J-20's weapons' seekers are also primitive as they are copied from severely downgraded Russian seekers using 3 decade old technology, and will be easily jammed by modern western ECM.

80 Years From Invention, China Is Struggling With Jet Engines

The jet engine has a long and storied history. Its development occurred spontaneously amongst several unrelated groups in the early 20th Century. Frank Whittle submitted a UK patent on a design in …

hackaday.com

This is because the PLAAF found the WS-10B to be too unreliable to put on production models, which is why the PLAAF still uses Russian AL-31 engines on the J-20, making it severely overweight (by 3000 kg even by 1970s SU-27 standards) for the dry thrust produced by the engines, and adversely affecting range and other performance parameters.

I will tell in what i agree with you.

J-20 must weigh around 19000-20000 kg, so it is around 3000-4000 kg heavier than a single seat Su-27.

The article claims WS-10C is equal to Al-31F; here is where it gets interesting, regular Al-31 are Su-27 engines thus if it is a regular Al-31, then China is 20 years behind Russia with 117 and almost 30 years with f119.

However there is a Al-31 variants as powerful as AL-41/117 engines.

However I doubt it since China bought 117 via Su-35 and there are no reports of that variant sold to China by Russia.

As you say if WS-10B is as good as Al-31, then they will power J-20 with it, but as you claim, and I agree 100%, they say they will continue using Al-31 which means it is inferior to the Russian engine, this implies all the J-11s powered by WS-10B are inferior to Su-27 variants made in Russia and India, specially to Su-35 thus that explains why they bought Su-35.


Su-35 is not inferior to J-16 for several reasons.

First Su-35 can fire long range R-37

second is canopy arrangement

The J-16 is a twin seater Su-30 equivalent thus it has less fuel and more drag plus inferior engines.

This means lower range, weaker sustained and instantaneous turn rate and inferior acceleration.

The article claims the Su-35 has inferior avionics, and does not mention turn rates acceleration nor loops, which obviously are improved by 117 engines.

So performance wise and armament wise Su-35 must be superior to J-16

Looking at the size of the missile we can see it is bigger than R-37, it might have more range but it is bigger and heavier thus less maneouvrable.

how good are Chinese avionics? well since they have not been proven by combat it is hard to know but Su-35 already has been tested in Syria where are F-35s and F-22s, and Russia claims Su-35 has faced F-22 already.

Since J-20 is powered by Al-31 the aircraft is drastically underpowered.


Su-57 already has flown the Type 30 engine

The only thing i am not 100% convinced is how stealthy is J-20, i will give 50% credibility to the Indian claim J-20 can be detected easily, i do not say the Indian air force did not detect it, just the range since stealth aircraft are detectable at least by 20-35km i think they can be detected, but stealth is for 100km of range or more so BVR combat is assured.