J20 Stealth Fighter

[johnq]

F-22 Raptor is the first 5th generation fighter aircraft to be developed. The fighter began production from 1996 and U.S has 187 F 22 Raptors. Unlike the F 35 which has been developed much after the F 22 and is also a 5th generation fighter, the F 22 still can't be exported under American federal law. Even a request from Japan which is a close ally of America was rejected. This indicates only one thing, that F 22 has many closely guarded secrets that remain classified. But even with what is available in the public domain, we can decipher that F 22 is far ahead of the game compared to any other modern fighter. China's Chengdu J-20, its most advanced fighter jet is touted to be a 5th generation fighter. It is manufactured by Chengdu Aerospace Corporation China has 28 J-20’s in limited service. As per reports, combat units began introducing the aircraft in February 2018. In this video, Defense Updates analyses why Chinese Chengdu J 20 is no match to American F 22 Raptor?

 

[MiG-29SMT]

I appreciate your contribution to this thread, and agree most of your POV.

However my edition would be more specific on different roles. Considering PLAAF will mostly fight within China's neibourghing area, J20 would get stronger system support. Recent decades China built its indigenous supportive system like: own Beidou GPS, universal datalink, massive AEW planes, national anti-stealth radar networks, my ranking would be:

1. F-22 (offensive/defensive role)
2. J-20 (defensive role)
3. Su-57 (offensive role)
4. F-35 (offensive role)
5. Su-57 (defensive role)
6. F-35 (defensive role)
7. J-20 (offensive role)

Just imagine J20 come to attack US military base in Japan and fight with F35, i have to say there are very limited chance for J20 to win.

But if F35 come to attack J20 let's say in Shanghai area, the AEW and radars would give enough support to J20. For 5G fighters, you have to put the combat location and supportive system into the considerations. That's quite different than last generation.

I have seem so many articles about pissing contest between J20 vs Su30MKI or Rafale. But i haven't read any valuable analysis about comparisons between two systems in this forum. If you knew Chinese, you would read from Chinese military forum, fans weren't worried about Rafale too much we don't know how much time IAF would spent on integrating them into their system. They already have planes like collecting stamps from a mini UNSC(saddly China is missing). It's must be headache for logistics...

For the updates of WS10, WS15, you would check a recent hot thread at

超级大本营军事论坛 - Database

The progress is quite exicting after 15 yrs of R&D, Google translate would helps.

I will tell you i have learn living in Asia for 20 years, Asians specially east Asians tend to over estimate their capabilities.


J-20 is not better than Su-57, simply for the engine, today T-30 is according to Russian Media and their designer a 5th generetion plus engine, 117 is a 15000 kg thrust engine but it is consider not 5th generation why? well MiG-31 has engines as powerful.

Type 30 is lighter than Al-31, so it generates more thrust and weighs less.

It allows the Su-57 virtually to be a naval aircraft due to its thrust and vector thrust capability.

You might say J-20 has better stealth, which is not true, its canards and ventral fins and rounded nozzles makes it less stealth add it is underpowered.


Russia has the knowledge of AESA systems, but they have no money, so Russia uses the cheapest solution to get the best results.


Now in war an air force will not last as much, why? with hypersonic missiles no air base is secure, so the Russians know it, why you will invest in a 80 million aircraft that cost 20000 dollars to fly one hour and stays several days in maintainance? So Su-57 was made as a compromise of price, stealth and performance, so it is cheap, 42 millions a piece, cheaper to fly and maintain.

F-22 is an example, the Americans are buying F-15 for the same reasons, F-15s are reliable, cheaper to fly and maintain than F-35.

the new american philosophy is build several aircraft during a decade with superior abilities to F-22 but with evolutionary technologies rather than revolutionary technologies.


J-20 is one of the best not because it is very advanced is because very few nations can spend so much money in aircraft that spend 20000 dollars an hour to fly them.

China has the money, but the technology is not something you can keep in just one contry Turkey or South Korea are examples.


The USA will remain the top dog in aerospace, China will remain one of the top aerospace centers no doubt about it, but J-20 as advanced as it is, retains many mistakes F-35 made, it is easy to see the Tempest from England has already fixed some of those weaknesses

 

[rockdog]

I will tell you i have learn living in Asia for 20 years, Asians specially east Asians tend to over estimate their capabilities.

Put the J20 aside, i generally think the east Asia is quite under estimated by western.

We even called our region as "Monster house the East Asia" means it's a small house but full of monster like nations. In this region, competitions are stiff, people are working too hard and no time rest. Nations are competing each other and dislike each others. With same per GDP, European spent much less time on working.

If you put China, TW, HK, Macao, N/S Korea, Japan together, it's already the biggest ecomonic entity and 2nd largest military zone, quite like pre WWII Europe.

Chinese and Japanese always laugh at N/S.Korea are small nations and not that important, but if you throw it into EU, N/S Korea is even stronger than Spain and Italy considering GDP and military strengh.

F-22 is an example, the Americans are buying F-15 for the same reasons, F-15s are reliable, cheaper to fly and maintain than F-35.

the new american philosophy is build several aircraft during a decade with superior abilities to F-22 but with evolutionary technologies rather than revolutionary technologies.


J-20 is one of the best not because it is very advanced is because very few nations can spend so much money in aircraft that spend 20000 dollars an hour to fly them.

China has the money, but the technology is not something you can keep in just one contry Turkey or South Korea are examples.


The USA will remain the top dog in aerospace, China will remain one of the top aerospace centers no doubt about it, but J-20 as advanced as it is, retains many mistakes F-35 made, it is easy to see the Tempest from England has already fixed some of those weaknesses

Strong fund is one side, i was also amazed how fast China's R&D were learning new tech and apply them. That's why i said J20 is potential platform and always have chance to catch up the counterparts.

Let me show you an example：

During the 1990-2000s, X35 beat X32 as winner of JSF project, the Chinese R&D system noticed the Bump/DSI is quite promising tech, even some civil colleges started to research it:

Few years later, most 3G, 4G, 5G fighters and even Mig21-trainner are using this tech.

If you compare JF17 to JF17A, J10A - J10C,

Can you imagine India do so? Everyone knows LCA's intake design is old, complicated and would be lighter and cheaper if apply DSI/BUMP. But 20 years passed it's still the same design. I check Indian's MACA mockup, the original version is still without DSI,

And now it looks added a graphic layer of DIS, but still some kind of mockup, it shows how slow if they don't have their own platform and indigenous fighters even for the 4G fighter to verify it.

Maybe Saudi Arabia or UAE have enough money to buy 100 5G fighters, but they will never have enough R&D employees, platforms and supercomputers to do such fast application.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Put the J20 aside, i generally think the east Asia is quite under estimated by western.

We even called our region as "Monster house the East Asia" means it's a small house but full of monster like nations. In this region, competitions are stiff, people are working too hard and no time rest. Nations are competing each other and dislike each others. With same per GDP, European spent much less time on working.

If you put China, TW, HK, Macao, N/S Korea, Japan together, it's already the biggest ecomonic entity and 2nd largest military zone, quite like pre WWII Europe.

Chinese and Japanese always laugh at N/S.Korea are small nations and not that important, but if you throw it into EU, N/S Korea is even stronger than Spain and Italy considering GDP and military strengh.



Strong fund is one side, i was also amazed how fast China's R&D were learning new tech and apply them. That's why i said J20 is potential platform and always have chance to catch up the counterparts.

Let me show you an example：

View attachment 73181

During the 1990-2000s, X35 beat X32 as winner of JSF project, the Chinese R&D system noticed the Bump/DSI is quite promising tech, even some civil colleges started to research it:


View attachment 73173

Few years later, most 3G, 4G, 5G fighters and even Mig21-trainner are using this tech.

View attachment 73174

If you compare JF17 to JF17A, J10A - J10C,

View attachment 73175

View attachment 73176

View attachment 73179

View attachment 73180


Can you imagine India do so? Everyone knows LCA's intake design is old, complicated and would be lighter and cheaper if apply DSI/BUMP. But 20 years passed it's still the same design. I check Indian's MACA mockup, the original version is still without DSI,

View attachment 73177

View attachment 73178

And now it looks added a graphic layer of DIS, but still some kind of mockup, it shows how slow if they don't have their own platform and indigenous fighters even for the 4G fighter to verify it.

Maybe Saudi Arabia or UAE have enough money to buy 100 5G fighters, but they will never have enough R&D employees, platforms and supercomputers to do such fast application.

again you are over estimating China.

As a mexican I can tell you the aerospace strategy followed by China has been the correct one.

Example J-10, it is a lavi based concept modified to Chinese needs with Russian engine and Israeli/Russian colaboration

J-8 and J-8II are based upon Soviet designs, mainly MiG-21 plans and reversed engineered MiG-23 parts.

How China has achieved its J-20? basically by spionage, reverse engineered technology and by foreign educated engineers, However there is authentic Chinese design on J-20 of course

Practicality and priority has been the goal to achieve the result.

By practicallity means China has used foreign technology when needed.
and Priority that has been a policy to achieve a fighter aircraft industry.

There is design in China no doubt about it but if you think Airbus factories did not give some tech to make ARJ-21 or C-919 well you are wrong.
But you overestimate China, India if they are willing they will design more aircraft in the future.


But I will give you that you are wrong we are living in an age where technology can be done any where, what happens with China is the internal market is big but most nations can design aircraft if they want an example is Brazil they have an aerospace Industry which is leader in civil aviation.

 

[johnq]

Latest News, Breaking News, Political News, Online News, Elections, Bollywood, Sports and Coronavirus News | APNLive

KHABAR HAI TO DEKHEGI

www.apnlive.com

According to the reports which emerged during 2018, India has repeatedly detected Chinese J-20 flying near the Himalayan state of Uttarakhand. Chinese claims of J-20 being stealth aircraft with the latest avionics received a significant setback when its flagship combat aircraft was detected by a previous generation fighter radar. According to former Indian Air Force Chief ACM Birender Singh Dhanoa,” Su-30 radars are good enough to detect J-20 from many kilometres away.”

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Put the J20 aside, i generally think the east Asia is quite under estimated by western.

We even called our region as "Monster house the East Asia" means it's a small house but full of monster like nations. In this region, competitions are stiff, people are working too hard and no time rest. Nations are competing each other and dislike each others. With same per GDP, European spent much less time on working.

If you put China, TW, HK, Macao, N/S Korea, Japan together, it's already the biggest ecomonic entity and 2nd largest military zone, quite like pre WWII Europe.

Chinese and Japanese always laugh at N/S.Korea are small nations and not that important, but if you throw it into EU, N/S Korea is even stronger than Spain and Italy considering GDP and military strengh.



Strong fund is one side, i was also amazed how fast China's R&D were learning new tech and apply them. That's why i said J20 is potential platform and always have chance to catch up the counterparts.

Let me show you an example：

View attachment 73181

During the 1990-2000s, X35 beat X32 as winner of JSF project, the Chinese R&D system noticed the Bump/DSI is quite promising tech, even some civil colleges started to research it:


View attachment 73173

Few years later, most 3G, 4G, 5G fighters and even Mig21-trainner are using this tech.

View attachment 73174

If you compare JF17 to JF17A, J10A - J10C,

View attachment 73175

View attachment 73176

View attachment 73179

View attachment 73180


Can you imagine India do so? Everyone knows LCA's intake design is old, complicated and would be lighter and cheaper if apply DSI/BUMP. But 20 years passed it's still the same design. I check Indian's MACA mockup, the original version is still without DSI,

View attachment 73177

View attachment 73178

And now it looks added a graphic layer of DIS, but still some kind of mockup, it shows how slow if they don't have their own platform and indigenous fighters even for the 4G fighter to verify it.

Maybe Saudi Arabia or UAE have enough money to buy 100 5G fighters, but they will never have enough R&D employees, platforms and supercomputers to do such fast application.

chinese head designer has a Russian blonde assistant

chinese head designer just visiting Israel when they were designing J-10

In June 2000 it was reported that Russia and Ukraine would build the new-generation Antonov 70 transport aircraft, not with Germany, as had been planned, but with China. Russian Defense Minister Igor Sergeyev said that negotiations with Berlin had resulted in the Germans saying they would not support the joint Ukrainian-Russian An-70 project, Interfax reported. ``We won't try to win over the Germans, but will complete the project with China," Sergeyev said. A Chinese military delegation visited Ukraine and expressed an interest in the AN-70 transport aircraft.

At the Zhuhai airshow in November 2000, Antonow tried to market the An-70 in China. This would likely involve co-production with AVIC II. The Antonov Design Bureau offered cooperation to the Shansiy aircraft building corporation to build a new airplane using Antonov An-70 as a basic model. The Chinese side left the offer unanswered, although the proposition was negotiated during Li Peng's visit to Ukraine in the middle of 2000.

In 2003, a publication by Hu Xiaofeng [the general manager of Shaanfei - Shaanxi Aircraft Corporation] proposed using the An-70, a Ukrainian heavy transportation aircraft model still in its testing stage, as China’s model for its large transportation aircraft. Shaanfei’s Y-8 middle-size transportation aircraft, another Antonov knock-off, had been the only domestically made transportation aircraft used by the PLAAF.

At the 2008 Zhuhai airshow, Antonov displayed a model of the large An-70 military transport aircraft, based on which China and Ukraine could jointly develop the AN-70-600. The new An-70-600 transport aircraft's maximum payload was expected be 48t-50t compared to An-70's 47t. One of China's requirements is that An-70-600's flight range should be at least 3,200km when carrying the maximum load. China also hoped that it can carry at least 3 China-made infantry fighting vehicles, or 120-150 paratroopers.

According to Ukrainian reports, at least three design candidates were submitted to the Chinese to address the Y-20 requirements:

1. An-70 turboprop
2. An-77, a version of the An-70 with turbofans
3. An-170, a heavily modified and larger version of the An-70

According to Ukrainian sources, the Antonov bureau proposed a radical development of its An-70 transport that would replace its current contra-rotating propfan engines with four turbofan engines, lengthen the fuselage and increase cargo capacity to between 50 and 60 tons. This would approach the 70-ton capacity of the Boeing C-17 and exceed the 50-ton capability of the Ilyushin Il-76MD. The Chinese military transport aircraft would adopt different design concepts and technologies than the An-70 transport aircraft designed by Ukraine and Russia, and will be powered by four jet engines.

It appeared the new An-70 variant may be able to carry four of the ZLC-2000 airborne tank revealed in 2005 by the PLA. In September 2005 the PLA agreed to purchase about 32 Il-76MD transports, which can carry three ZLC-2000s, in addition to about 20 acquired during the 1990s. Antonov has also helped China's Shaanxi Aircraft Company to produce a much improved version of the Y-8 called the Y-9, which can carry 20 tons of cargo. In addition, China held discussions with Antonov regarding the possible co-production of the 150-ton capacity An-124 Ruslan, which exceeds the 120-ton capacity of the US C-5 transport.

By early 2007 ANTK Antonov set up a new VTL (Heavy Transport Aircraft) working group, to start developing a heavy transport using the existing designs for the An-77, a turbojet version of the An-70, which had earlier been put on hold. The take-off weight of the aircraft was increased from 132 tonnes to 187 tonnes, the maximum payload went up from 47 to 50 tonnes, and the volume of the cargo bay was increased by adding a 2-meter insert in the airframe in front of the center-wing section. The original An-77 design relied on four CFM56-5A16 bypass turbofan engines; these were replaced by four D-30KP-2 bypass turbofan engines eventually used in the Y-20. The aircraft retained the ability to take-off and land using short landing strips, although the take-off length went up to 900m. The solution for increasing the thrust was the same as used in the An-77. First introduced in the C-17A Globemaster III, it directs the exhaust jet of the bypass turbofan engine at the high-lift flaps.

Major changes were made to the Y-20 design in 2010, with the entry into service with the Chinese army of the Type 99-IIA [aka Type 99A2] main battle tank. The combat weight of this tank, which has many similarities to German Leopard IIA6, is 58 tonnes. This imposed greater payload requirements for the aircraft, which was still expected to be able to carry the heaviest tanks in service with the Chinese Army. The project switched to a different variant of the An-70, the An-170. Antonov worked on the An-170 is a heavy operational-strategic transport in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The project was in competition with the the Ilyushin Bureau's Il-106, which was announced the winner by the Soviet authorities. Owing to the crisis after the break-up of the Soviet Union, neither aircraft entered production. The An-170 is much larger and heavier than the An-70, with a take-off weight of 230 tonnes and a maximum payload of 60 tonnes. Another difference is the regular wing profile of the An-170, whereas the An-70 uses the so-called supercritical profile.

Richard D. Fisher, Jr., Senior Fellow, International Assessment and Strategy Center, in Testimony for the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission Hearing on China's Emergent Military Aerospace and Commercial Aviation Capabilities, May 20, 2010, noted that "This decade will ... see the emergence of a new C-17 size Chinese strategic transport aircraft.... it can be expected that during this year or next that AVIC will reveal more details on this large transport. In 2006 Ukrainian officials noted they had been hired as consultants by X'ian Aircraft Design and Research Institute (603 Institute) to consult on large aircraft programs, to include the possible adaptation of Antonov's turbofan-powered An-70 for turbofan propulsion. Then in 2007 a Ukrainian official confirmed that images of a model of a Chinese four-turbofan military transport was another AVIC-1 design."




https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/y-xx-antonov.htm

The ARJ21 is partially built on specs from the old MD80, thanks to the presence of U.S. manufacturers in China. McDonnell Douglas was operating an MD80 manufacturing facility in Shaghai prior to its merger with Boeing, thanks to a lucrative deal inked in the early 90s. During this time period, presses and other parts were shipped from the United States to the Douglas facility. This gave the Chinese access to Western technology.

Is China's ARJ21 Just A MD-80 Copy Or Is It The Beginning Of China's Rise In Commercial Aviation?

China's bid to become a major player in the global aerospace industry is moving forward, with the recent certification of the ARJ21.

www.avgeekery.com

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Put the J20 aside, i generally think the east Asia is quite under estimated by western.

We even called our region as "Monster house the East Asia" means it's a small house but full of monster like nations. In this region, competitions are stiff, people are working too hard and no time rest. Nations are competing each other and dislike each others. With same per GDP, European spent much less time on working.

If you put China, TW, HK, Macao, N/S Korea, Japan together, it's already the biggest ecomonic entity and 2nd largest military zone, quite like pre WWII Europe.

Chinese and Japanese always laugh at N/S.Korea are small nations and not that important, but if you throw it into EU, N/S Korea is even stronger than Spain and Italy considering GDP and military strengh.



Strong fund is one side, i was also amazed how fast China's R&D were learning new tech and apply them. That's why i said J20 is potential platform and always have chance to catch up the counterparts.

Let me show you an example：

View attachment 73181

During the 1990-2000s, X35 beat X32 as winner of JSF project, the Chinese R&D system noticed the Bump/DSI is quite promising tech, even some civil colleges started to research it:


View attachment 73173

Few years later, most 3G, 4G, 5G fighters and even Mig21-trainner are using this tech.

View attachment 73174

If you compare JF17 to JF17A, J10A - J10C,

View attachment 73175

View attachment 73176

View attachment 73179

View attachment 73180


Can you imagine India do so? Everyone knows LCA's intake design is old, complicated and would be lighter and cheaper if apply DSI/BUMP. But 20 years passed it's still the same design. I check Indian's MACA mockup, the original version is still without DSI,

View attachment 73177

View attachment 73178

And now it looks added a graphic layer of DIS, but still some kind of mockup, it shows how slow if they don't have their own platform and indigenous fighters even for the 4G fighter to verify it.

Maybe Saudi Arabia or UAE have enough money to buy 100 5G fighters, but they will never have enough R&D employees, platforms and supercomputers to do such fast application.

this will refresh you the memory
MiG-23 in China

J-8II intake copied from MiG-23

ventral fin was also copied

Egyptian Air Force's Mig-23 in China.

A newly arrived and poorly maintained Egyptian Air Force Mig-23 is on display in the China Aviation Museum at Xiao Tang Hill, Beijing ( here...

china-defense.blogspot.com

J-8II ventral fin even folds in the same way

ELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design
By Dave Majumdar7 March 2013

• Save article

The Changhe Aircraft WZ-10 attack helicopter is based on a Russian design commissioned by the Chinese, Kamov's chief design engineer says.
In 1995, Kamov developed a preliminary design in the 6t weight class under a contract with the Chinese government, says Sergey Mikheev, Kamov's chief design engineer, speaking at the Heli-Expo trade show in Las Vegas, Nevada.
"Due to understandable reasons, this information was kept secret," he says.

Dave Majumdar/Flightglobal​

The Project 941 design was not based on any Soviet-era attack helicopter project and was strictly designed for China's unique requirements, Mikheev says. "They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract," he says.
After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.
Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.
"So I wish success to the helicopter," Mikheev says.

HELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design

The Changhe Aircraft WZ-10 attack helicopter is based on a Russian design commissioned by the Chinese, Kamov's chief design engineer says. In 1995,...

www.flightglobal.com

 

[rockdog]

this will refresh you the memory
MiG-23 in China
View attachment 73242

J-8II intake copied from MiG-23
View attachment 73243

View attachment 73245

ventral fin was also copied

Egyptian Air Force's Mig-23 in China.

A newly arrived and poorly maintained Egyptian Air Force Mig-23 is on display in the China Aviation Museum at Xiao Tang Hill, Beijing ( here...

china-defense.blogspot.com

View attachment 73246
View attachment 73247

J-8II ventral fin even folds in the same way

View attachment 73248
View attachment 73249


View attachment 73250


ELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design
By Dave Majumdar7 March 2013

• Save article

The Changhe Aircraft WZ-10 attack helicopter is based on a Russian design commissioned by the Chinese, Kamov's chief design engineer says.
In 1995, Kamov developed a preliminary design in the 6t weight class under a contract with the Chinese government, says Sergey Mikheev, Kamov's chief design engineer, speaking at the Heli-Expo trade show in Las Vegas, Nevada.
"Due to understandable reasons, this information was kept secret," he says.

Dave Majumdar/Flightglobal​

The Project 941 design was not based on any Soviet-era attack helicopter project and was strictly designed for China's unique requirements, Mikheev says. "They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract," he says.
After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.
Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.
"So I wish success to the helicopter," Mikheev says.

HELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design

The Changhe Aircraft WZ-10 attack helicopter is based on a Russian design commissioned by the Chinese, Kamov's chief design engineer says. In 1995,...

www.flightglobal.com

China copied lots of CCCP and Nato's tech is not news during 1980-1990's. I even touched this Mig23, UH-1, CH47 Vietnam gifted China after Viet War. The are all stored in Beijing Aviation Museum.

During 1990s China is the same level of GDP as India, we don't have enough R&D fund as today.

 

[rockdog]

again you are over estimating China.

As a mexican I can tell you the aerospace strategy followed by China has been the correct one.

Example J-10, it is a lavi based concept modified to Chinese needs with Russian engine and Israeli/Russian colaboration

J-8 and J-8II are based upon Soviet designs, mainly MiG-21 plans and reversed engineered MiG-23 parts.

How China has achieved its J-20? basically by spionage, reverse engineered technology and by foreign educated engineers, However there is authentic Chinese design on J-20 of course

Practicality and priority has been the goal to achieve the result.

By practicallity means China has used foreign technology when needed.
and Priority that has been a policy to achieve a fighter aircraft industry.

There is design in China no doubt about it but if you think Airbus factories did not give some tech to make ARJ-21 or C-919 well you are wrong.
But you overestimate China, India if they are willing they will design more aircraft in the future.

I am little curious that as Spanish Mexican you claimed as part of western, but you seems quite a spiritual WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). Even in N.American especially US, Mexican no matter white or brown are identified as hispanic even not a genuine white.

Acctually, you are not first Mexican acted like this. When i studied in Europe, one Mexican classmate repeatly emphesized to me the Mexico is part of N.America not Latin American ... But from my pov large part of Mexican like to labelled them as part of western world, but the ironic thing is the "Real" or mainstream western nations dosen't count you in.

No offending and i didn't want to go personal, but it's matter of your last conclusion:

But I will give you that you are wrong we are living in an age where technology can be done any where, what happens with China is the internal market is big but most nations can design aircraft if they want an example is Brazil they have an aerospace Industry which is leader in civil aviation.

No, i disagree. I never expected any Iberian culture related nations would finally passed the industrilization.
They were in the Latino Trap for decades and i don't see when they would come out. The Brazilian aerospace Industry almost sold to Boeing with a shitty price.

If now days, the are very few nations can make 5G fighter fly, most nations claimed they would but finally just leave the a mockup or PPT.

That's why till 2020, there are only three nations: USA, Russia, China made there.

I think for other nations they are missing few mandatory points:

1. Strong demoestic demanding (Turkey unchecked)
2. Strong economy or enough fund (Indonisia, Vietnam unchecked)
3. Strong government (Mexico unchecked)
4. Not bullied by USA (EU and Japan unchecked)
5. Strong hard working culture (Brazil unchecked)

I think India is checked for all those points and it would make it in next 10-20 yrs, not as 40 yrs long as its LCA.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

China copied lots of CCCP and Nato's tech is not news during 1980-1990's. I even touched this Mig23, UH-1, CH47 Vietnam gifted China after Viet War. The are all stored in Beijing Aviation Museum.

During 1990s China is the same level of GDP as India, we don't have enough R&D fund as today.

All humans we learn from others, remember that.

China has gotten those technologies mostly from Russia/USSR, Israel, and Europe.

China has design and obviously has good engineers and designers.
J-20 is a proof of that, we have to accept Chinese are humans and can do any thing that a European can do or an American.

However you think India or any other nationality can not do it.

India already is a superpower.

China has had a little bit more obscure history of its aviation industry than India.


India calls the Su-30MKI Sukhoi, China tries to mislead and lie calling them J-11. J-15 or J-16.

Hides the fact most of its technology is foreign, yes you might say it is Chinese but it is not.

Now it is not that China can not design a J-20, China can but do not create fantasies, if you have gotten a J-20 is not because you are superior which you are not, China has done a correct aircraft policy.

My respect to China but you forget China has been allowed by design, the West wants a strong China that threats Russia.

The Aspide missiles that Italy sold you is the basis of your PL-12 with some modernized technology domestic and foreign

Likewise your helos are modifications of European Helos

The reason is they made money and they know China is not a friend of russia remember this

India has not an startegic importance to contain Russia, and India more or less is a true friend of Russia because India has no border with Russia.


You have been allowed by Western puppeteers to get toys to threat Russia

 

[MiG-29SMT]

I am little curious that as Spanish Mexican you claimed as part of western, but you seems quite a spiritual WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). Even in N.American especially US, Mexican no matter white or brown are identified as hispanic even not a genuine white.

Acctually, you are not first Mexican acted like this. When i studied in Europe, one Mexican classmate repeatly emphesized to me the Mexico is part of N.America not Latin American ... But from my pov large part of Mexican like to labelled them as part of western world, but the ironic thing is the "Real" or mainstream western nations dosen't count you in.

No offending and i didn't want to go personal, but it's matter of your last conclusion:




No, i disagree. I never expected any Iberian culture related nations would finally passed the industrilization.
They were in the Latino Trap for decades and i don't see when they would come out. The Brazilian aerospace Industry almost sold to Boeing with a shitty price.

If now days, the are very few nations can make 5G fighter fly, most nations claimed they would but finally just leave the a mockup or PPT.

That's why till 2020, there are only three nations: USA, Russia, China made there.

I think for other nations they are missing few mandatory points:

1. Strong demoestic demanding (Turkey unchecked)
2. Strong economy or enough fund (Indonisia, Vietnam unchecked)
3. Strong government (Mexico unchecked)
4. Not bullied by USA (EU and Japan unchecked)
5. Strong hard working culture (Brazil unchecked)

I think India is checked for all those points and it would make it in next 10-20 yrs, not as 40 yrs long as its LCA.

Mexico on the map is in North America.
Mexico is not a race we have people of all races.

Now you still do do not understand but the future will make you understand China by design was allowed to threat Russia and the USSR was allowed to threat Germany in 1939.

J-20 with WS-10 Taihang engines confirmed to be in service
Posted on January 6, 2021 by CAS editor — No Comments ↓

J-20 with China’s domestically-made engines has been expected by many Chinese, and as early as July 2019, anonymous sources claimed that J-20 would be fitted with an improved Taihang engine (WS-10) for mass production.

By November 2019, photos of a yellow-skinned J-20 test machine equipped with sawtooth nozzle engines were leaked.

And yesterday, the Chinese Air Force released an official recruitment video, in which a Chinese Air Force-painted J-20 with sawtooth-nozzle engines installed appeared, which is believed to be the highly anticipated production version of the WS-10 Taihang J-20, or WS-10C for J-20 which was rumored to be one of the 7 variants of WS-10 engine, and the video also confirmed that the J-20 equipped with the domestic engines is already in service.

 

[Cruise missile]

All humans we learn from others, remember that.

China has gotten those technologies mostly from Russia/USSR, Israel, and Europe.

China has design and obviously has good engineers and designers.
J-20 is a proof of that, we have to accept Chinese are humans and can do any thing that a European can do or an American.

However you think India or any other nationality can not do it.

India already is a superpower.

China has had a little bit more obscure history of its aviation industry than India.


India calls the Su-30MKI Sukhoi, China tries to mislead and lie calling them J-11. J-15 or J-16.

Hides the fact most of its technology is foreign, yes you might say it is Chinese but it is not.

Now it is not that China can not design a J-20, China can but do not create fantasies, if you have gotten a J-20 is not because you are superior which you are not, China has done a correct aircraft policy.

My respect to China but you forget China has been allowed by design, the West wants a strong China that threats Russia.

The Aspide missiles that Italy sold you is the basis of your PL-12 with some modernized technology domestic and foreign

View attachment 73258


View attachment 73259


Likewise your helos are modifications of European Helos

View attachment 73260


The reason is they made money and they know China is not a friend of russia remember this
View attachment 73261

India has not an startegic importance to contain Russia, and India more or less is a true friend of Russia because Russia has no border with Russia.


You have been allowed by Western puppeteers to get toys to threat Russia

We are just a small regional power now not super power.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

We are just a small regional power now not super power.

India is a very powerful Country, Indians sometimes think you are in the shadow of China, but in reality you are already a military Superpower and Economically you will eventually become one, plus i like Curry, Indian girls and Chai tea, and Music,

 

[rockdog]

India is a very powerful Country, Indians sometimes think you are in the shadow of China, but in reality you are already a military Superpower and Economically you will eventually become one, plus i like Curry, Indian girls and Chai tea, and Music,

India is superpower in subcontinent, but regional power to the world. The funny thing is, in subcontinent all India's neiborghs are not connecting each other by land, they are surronding with India in all direction, which means they are very hard to form a union to counter India, it gives natrually advantage for India to take care each of them....

No one has such geographic advantage in any region like India.

 

[Kumata]

India is superpower in subcontinent, but regional power to the world. The funny thing is, all India's neiborghs are not connecting each other by land, they are surronding with India in all direction, which means they are very hard to form a union to counter India, it gives natrually advantage to India to take care each of them....

We have always took care of our neighbors including your fav pakistan when we gave them the land in 47 before they bacv stabbed. same time, you easily forget than all were part of india till as recently as 100 odd years.... If u read history, we even gifted UNSC seat / tibet to china before they back-stabbed us in 62 ..

Our religion teaches us to be moderate / compassionate in our daily life not hardliners like muslims...

 

[rockdog]

We have always took care of our neighbors including your fav pakistan when we gave them the land in 47 before they bacv stabbed. same time, you easily forget than all were part of india till as recently as 100 odd years.... If u read history, we even gifted UNSC seat / tibet to china before they back-stabbed us in 62 ..

Our religion teaches us to be moderate / compassionate in our daily life not hardliners like muslims...

My from POV,

1. British Indian is not the same definition of current India, Sri Lanka and Burma were part of British India, dosen't mean it's part of current India. Plus Tibet was never a part of British India.

2. UNSC is from UN, UN was formed during 1945. I don't think Nehru gifted PR.China that early.

 

[rockdog]

We have always took care of our neighbors including your fav pakistan when we gave them the land in 47 before they bacv stabbed. same time, you easily forget than all were part of india till as recently as 100 odd years.... If u read history, we even gifted UNSC seat / tibet to china before they back-stabbed us in 62 ..

Our religion teaches us to be moderate / compassionate in our daily life not hardliners like muslims...

Timeline:

1945: WWII ended, KMT China was member of UNSC of UN, India was not the India
1947: India became India
1949: KMT China became CCP China
1962: War
1964: Nehru passed away
1971: War between India & Pakistan, China supported Pakistan
1971: CCP China replace KMT in UNSC

I don't see any clue "we even gifted UNSC seat "

 

[Kumata]

My from POV,

1. British Indian is not the same definition of current India, Sri Lanka and Burma were part of British India, dosen't mean it's part of current India. Plus Tibet was never a part of British India.

2. UNSC is from UN, UN was formed during 1945. I don't think Nehru gifted PR.China that early.

I don't expect you to agree to my viewpoint and historical facts...

 

[rockdog]

I don't expect you to agree to my viewpoint and historical facts...

I knew there were old saying that India gifted UNSC to China for years. But i never found any official evidence, i'd like your elaboration, plus how do you explain this:

Timeline:

1945: WWII ended, KMT China was member of UNSC of UN, India was not the India
1947: India became India
1949: KMT China became CCP China
1962: War
1964: Nehru passed away
1971: War between India & Pakistan, China supported Pakistan
1971: CCP China replace KMT in UNSC

I don't see any clue "we even gifted UNSC seat "

 

[Kumata]

I knew there were old saying that India gifted UNSC to China for years. But i never found any official evidence, i'd like your elaboration, plus how do you explain this:

Problem is that whatever official info about this is ... it's in classified files and as such no official evidence per se .. only snippets ..

rest your time, its suited to your needs / propaganda. i have no intention of taking you out of your paradise...

PS : - I Don't consider CCP china as real chinese people... they are tribals who fought a bloody war with native chinese who are deep rooted in humanity... Mao made a monster out of those tribals...