Is the tank becoming obsolete?

[Akim]

If you are unaware as to what is happening around the world, why don't you research for the same on your own? Must I hand feed you?

But never mind. Here it is for you.

Thank you. I didn't know that. So Pakistan will equip their tanks with the new protection.

 

[smestarz]

The tank has been used very successfully in the defense. 100 Israeli tanks stopped the attack 500 Syrian tanks. In Soviet military Charter, each platoon in the defense attached to one tank. (In addition to the three BMP, which already have in the platoon).

What you fail to understand a few things as I see them,
If it concerns tanks then there is race to improve tank technology, and a race to develop better weapons to defeat these technologies
As I see, there are many anti tank missiles which are capable, and at the same time capable of destroying even the most heavily armoured tanks.
You should see what you are talking about..SOVIET MILITARY CHARTER? I mean are we not talking about something that was before the turn of the millennia? During those times of Soviets, the only thing that could destroy tank was another tank or a very high velocity gun, There were few hand held anti tank weapons such as RPG being more popular. Now we have smart weapons, there are fire and forget anti tank weapons with top attack capability (which destroy the tank by hittong on top of tank where armour is least)
You still want to go by that?

 

[smestarz]

Sir, Russian military doctrine might stress a bit more on the land forces. It assumes the possibility that there would be no air power in war. I do agree that all arms of the military can contribute in varying degrees depending upon the situation.

Russian doctrine in a way looks at the 4 forces separately and independently. The 4th being strategic missile forces. The only unified command is the president.

 

[pmaitra]

Russian doctrine in a way looks at the 4 forces separately and independently. The 4th being strategic missile forces. The only unified command is the president.

Do you have any material? You can post in the War Doctrines thread. My comment was relying on this post: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-history/50907-war-doctrines-2.html#post1004668

 

[Akim]

What you fail to understand a few things as I see them,
If it concerns tanks then there is race to improve tank technology, and a race to develop better weapons to defeat these technologies
As I see, there are many anti tank missiles which are capable, and at the same time capable of destroying even the most heavily armoured tanks.
You should see what you are talking about..SOVIET MILITARY CHARTER? I mean are we not talking about something that was before the turn of the millennia? During those times of Soviets, the only thing that could destroy tank was another tank or a very high velocity gun, There were few hand held anti tank weapons such as RPG being more popular. Now we have smart weapons, there are fire and forget anti tank weapons with top attack capability (which destroy the tank by hittong on top of tank where armour is least)
You still want to go by that?

This is the eternal competition blacksmiths, those who create chainmail and those that create the weapon is able to break him. SPIKE, Javelin,ERYX is able to penetrate the defense, but Active protection system eliminates this problem.

 

[Virendra]

People said the same thing about Snipers after the post WW II advancements in military technology.
Tanks are here to stay, just as Snipers are.

 

[Khagesh]

Indian troops have such ammunition? Or Paks? My answer is no. But these armies have tanks. The threat is real, and not hypothetical

We don't have the skeets based EFP because that was not the first priority. India is not one of those European countries which can be run over in 3 hours flat. Besides India and Pakistan is tank terrain, despite the defensive measures taken by both sides. Under such a situation India needed something to shape the battlefield first and to hold battlelines for long long times. Sensor fused skeets are useless for holding ground. They are only good for destroying. But wars are much more then merely shooting your six gun (something you and your people must have learnt by now in Ukraine).

We instead decided to go in for scatter-able mines in small quantities and more advanced anti tank mines in large quantities, which help shape the battlefield. The Sensor fused Textron munition (500 piece) is almost the last addition to this anti armour weaponry. SFW will fry the paki tanks from above and scatter-able mines will fry them from below and ATGMs/penetrators will fry them from side aspects. And if my suspicion is correct then research in the next generation of AT weapons is not being ignored by Indian researchers.

And these active defences you count on can only work from a few feet while EFPs already can target from much much further off and from more than one direction.

However I do agree that Tanks would still be around and tanks will also get used a lot. But that is another matter.

 

[Akim]

We don't have the skeets based EFP because that was not the first priority. India is not one of those European countries which can be run over in 3 hours flat. Besides India and Pakistan is tank terrain, despite the defensive measures taken by both sides. Under such a situation India needed something to shape the battlefield first and to hold battlelines for long long times. Sensor fused skeets are useless for holding ground. They are only good for destroying. But wars are much more then merely shooting your six gun (something you and your people must have learnt by now in Ukraine).

We instead decided to go in for scatter-able mines in small quantities and more advanced anti tank mines in large quantities, which help shape the battlefield. The Sensor fused Textron munition (500 piece) is almost the last addition to this anti armour weaponry. SFW will fry the paki tanks from above and scatter-able mines will fry them from below and ATGMs/penetrators will fry them from side aspects. And if my suspicion is correct then research in the next generation of AT weapons is not being ignored by Indian researchers.

And these active defences you count on can only work from a few feet while EFPs already can target from much much further off and from more than one direction.

However I do agree that Tanks would still be around and tanks will also get used a lot. But that is another matter.

In the war in the East of Ukraine, tanks play an important role. after the artillery. However, this war has its own specifics. Too densely populated areas, so they pay more attention to armored vehicles. However, only the tank is able to break through the defense or to stop the offensive.

 

[Gloire_bb]

During those times of Soviets, the only thing that could destroy tank was another tank or a very high velocity gun, There were few hand held anti tank weapons such as RPG being more popular. Now we have smart weapons, there are fire and forget anti tank weapons with top attack capability (which destroy the tank by hittong on top of tank where armour is least)
You still want to go by that?

During those times of Soviets(80 years of history), there were:
-times, when single low caliber AT gun with trained&determined crew could literally sink in blood armored attack alone; germans expected 50% losses for Pz.I/II attack in late 30ies. Yet it was cheaper&faster than attempt w/o tanks, and when attack reached it's mark, enemy paid tenfold. WWII shown it very well. So tanks remained.
-times, when every goddamn german trench was filled with weapons with ability to penetrate almost all allied tanks even frontally. Only few(soviet heavies) had any degree of protection. At same time, german army was overfilled with very high amounts of AT guns per every infantry division: allied tanker was sure to meet PaK40, he knew about his vehicle chances to actually survive hit combat-ready, etc.
Tanks remained.

-times, when massive boost in HEAT tech almost made any but bullet-proof armor in eyes of "specialists" useless, since rolled steel wasn't expected to stop reliably anyways. These were also times of rapid spread of first gen ATGMs and earlier threat of RPGs since ww2 only evolved(rockets gained range&accuracy... RPG-7 from these times is still with us, and not for show).
Yet somehow it was precisely when massive tank battles were fought, and classic armored warfare proved decisive.

If you compare mantioned cases with current status, - tank is just fine.
Simple example: where Ukraine spent their current defensive budjet money? Many things to solve problems...but nevertheless, significant amount of money(according to rumors, up to 40(!)% o/l) were allocated to tank production expansion.
Since they're at war right now, - they know better what they need, don't they?

 

[Kay]

Can active protection system deal with tandem charges?

 

[Akim]

Can active protection system deal with tandem charges?

She'll destroy it yet on the approach to the tank.

 

[Kay]

She'll destroy it yet on the approach to the tank.

I like that you refer to the tank as "she". But that does not answer my question.

 

[Akim]

I like that you refer to the tank as "she". But that does not answer my question.

Not on the tank and on the APS.. In tandem charge is not unusual. This is the normal cumulative munition that is able to overcome ERA first generation.

 

[smestarz]

This is the eternal competition blacksmiths, those who create chainmail and those that create the weapon is able to break him. SPIKE, Javelin,ERYX is able to penetrate the defense, but Active protection system eliminates this problem.

Active protection systems are new technology and will be an expensive one, but its matter of time before someone comes with a jamming system for the active protection system (jammer or something that confuses the system) or sort of multiple independent Targetting warheads, AT missile with 3-4 warheads which seperate from the missile say 10-20 metres prior to target thus creating 4 different targets for active system and also be able to hit a tank 4 times. just a thought

 

[Akim]

Active protection systems are new technology and will be an expensive one, but its matter of time before someone comes with a jamming system for the active protection system (jammer or something that confuses the system) or sort of multiple independent Targetting warheads, AT missile with 3-4 warheads which seperate from the missile say 10-20 metres prior to target thus creating 4 different targets for active system and also be able to hit a tank 4 times. just a thought

I repeat: this competition blacksmiths. The APS has been successfully used by the Israeli army. We're talking about TODAY IN the war in the East of Ukraine tanks spend an average of 3-4 hits ATGM. Tanks with new protection 6-7 hits. T-90A in the attack on the Lugansk airport generally rejected all of the old generation ATGMs. Two tanks of this type have already lined in melee.

 

[Khagesh]

TODAY tanks are being killed by both high end stuff and with IEDs. Tanks have been vulnerable to almost everything. Including advanced 5/6 kg tandem warhead sporting PG-7VR.

You are merely comparing different generations of Tank protections and Anti-Tank ammo. What you are not doing is comparing currently available Tank protection COMPARABLE currently available Anti-Tank ammunition.

Off course if you hit a modern tank sporting a modern armor and modern active protection against a first generation RPG or Milan you will see the Tank survive. But what you fail to realize is that even a lowly IED of a terrorist has gotten uprated in terms of explosive content and hardware, at least to the level that western tanks are being challenged. You can simply forget about putting up a Tank (even highly protected modern tanks) against smart ammo. The smart ammo already available, without restrictions in open market, for those who feel they need it, is enough to simply fry every human every equipment and any mission plan inside any tank.

You have to seriously sit down and start reading about beyond armor effect. Unless you do that you will never be able to admit that things do not look good for tanks.

Even in the case you cite of the Ukrainian civil war, the Kiev forces are simply surrendering hardware including tanks instead of having their mechanized formations strike out of the encirclements. This is the situation when only militia and partisans are fighting from the other side. Imagine what would a trained military like Russian Army do to the tanks that these idiots in Kiev put out.

If Kiev is making more tanks then it merely shows their idiocy. It proves nothing about desirability of having more tanks.


This link shows exactly how and how much the vulnerability is.
The British Challenger 2 Tank | TankNutDave

The real test for the Challenger 2 came in Operation Telic 1, which is better known as the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.

During Telic 1 the Challenger 2 did not see as many tank on tank engagements as the Challenger 1 had during the Gulf War of 1991. Many of the Tank on Tank battles were abandoned Iraqi tanks, including the famous 14 on 14 documented tank battle. However it was used to spearhead all the assaults and raids into Basrah, noticibly Al Zubiah, to open up the south for the remainding British Forces.

Telic 1 Challenger 2 history was best known for a Royal Scots Dragoon Guards tank throwing its tracks and getting stuck in a ditch, which was reportedly hit by 14 RPG variants and a MILAN anti-tank missile. The attack saw the sights on the vehicle destroyed, but the armour was un-penetrated and the crew walked away when the vehicle was recovered.

The term "blue on blue" refers to Fratricide, or an accidental attack on friendly forces. On the 25th of March one Challenger 2 engaged another Challenger with HESH rounds. HESH is a typical high explosive lobed round meaning its firing trajectory is a high arch making it at range a top attack weapon. 1 round hit the back decks of the tank injuring the crew and another hitting the top of the turret reportingly with an open commanders hatch. This vicious explosion and enormous heat cooked off the tanks ammunition consequently destroying the tank. tragically killing two crewman. This engagement remains the only Challenger 2 to be catastrophically killed on operations.

After Telic 1, the number of Challenger 2's in theatre were reduced and moved to more of a security role rather than an aggressive war fighter. Often providing an armoured fist when striking into the city, as well as leading most convoys and providing a physical deterrent.

It was during this period in August 2006 that a Challenger 2 from the Queens Royal Hussars was struck by a deadly tandem charged RPG-29 anti-tank missile. Though there were various inaccurate reports on the web at the time, the missile dropped short, exploding on the ground sending shrapnel and blast up under the tank penetrating the then unprotected steel belly of the tank, The Driver; Trooper Sean Chance, lost three of his toes in that attack.

In April 2007 whilst on a security patrol in Basra, a Challenger 2 of the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment hit an Improvised Explosive device, this was a EFP = Explosively formed projectile designed to form a moulten jet of copper capable of penetrating through a lot of armour. This attack again was a belly attack. The driver, Trooper Stephen Shine boor the brunt of the blast as it tore through the floor of his drivers cab. The lower section of his left leg was damaged so badly doctors were forced to amputate above the knee. Steve still serves in the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment and was later deployed on Operation Herrick (Afghanistan). He also skies for the British Army Team (FEAR NAUGHT!!).

 

[Akim]

TODAY tanks are being killed by both high end stuff and with IEDs. Tanks have been vulnerable to almost everything. Including advanced 5/6 kg tandem warhead sporting PG-7VR.

You are merely comparing different generations of Tank protections and Anti-Tank ammo. What you are not doing is comparing currently available Tank protection COMPARABLE currently available Anti-Tank ammunition.

Off course if you hit a modern tank sporting a modern armor and modern active protection against a first generation RPG or Milan you will see the Tank survive. But what you fail to realize is that even a lowly IED of a terrorist has gotten uprated in terms of explosive content and hardware, at least to the level that western tanks are being challenged. You can simply forget about putting up a Tank (even highly protected modern tanks) against smart ammo. The smart ammo already available, without restrictions in open market, for those who feel they need it, is enough to simply fry every human every equipment and any mission plan inside any tank.

You have to seriously sit down and start reading about beyond armor effect. Unless you do that you will never be able to admit that things do not look good for tanks.

Even in the case you cite of the Ukrainian civil war, the Kiev forces are simply surrendering hardware including tanks instead of having their mechanized formations strike out of the encirclements. This is the situation when only militia and partisans are fighting from the other side. Imagine what would a trained military like Russian Army do to the tanks that these idiots in Kiev put out.

If Kiev is making more tanks then it merely shows their idiocy. It proves nothing about desirability of having more tanks.


This link shows exactly how and how much the vulnerability is.
The British Challenger 2 Tank | TankNutDave

I'm not going to focus on the "miners" and "teachers". We know that there is a war with the regular Russian army. Are you talking about the war of the future. I'm talking about the war today. To counter Europe of the Russian army? To counter the Russian army before the Ukrainian army? Modern ERA tank can protect it from tandem ammunition, APFSDS and ammunition, attacking from above. Naturally, any tank is vulnerable. However, this does not mean the refusal of his application.

 

[Khagesh]

Sorry boss. The war in Ukraine is between Kiev (US foisted) and Separatists (Justifiably Russian supported). You cannot change the narrative merely because you want to feel like a martyr. No Messiahs and no Martyr in this war. Whichever side wins before the negotiations become effective will take the whole of Ukraine eventually.

I am also talking about current wars. All the examples I have given are current examples.

Though yes I do agree Tanks are not going to go out of use. If anything there are write ups which suggest that Americans are going to increase the size and weight of their tanks for better protection. My hunch is other countries will also look into some entirely new stealth technologies and datalinkings for making available a much much wider view to the tank commanders. Besides tank has the capacity to move around. Which can make things difficult for the opposing force if the battlefield commanders are smart and daring.

 

[Akim]

Sorry boss. The war in Ukraine is between Kiev (US foisted) and Separatists (Justifiably Russian supported). You cannot change the narrative merely because you want to feel like a martyr. No Messiahs and no Martyr in this war. Whichever side wins before the negotiations become effective will take the whole of Ukraine eventually.

I am also talking about current wars. All the examples I have given are current examples.

Though yes I do agree Tanks are not going to go out of use. If anything there are write ups which suggest that Americans are going to increase the size and weight of their tanks for better protection. My hunch is other countries will also look into some entirely new stealth technologies and datalinkings for making available a much much wider view to the tank commanders. Besides tank has the capacity to move around. Which can make things difficult for the opposing force if the battlefield commanders are smart and daring.

If there is talk about politics, go to the appropriate thread.
Stealth technology for tank is stupid. It's not a plane and not a ship and not even reconnaissance vehicle. Western tanks have today optimum weight and increase their protection to occur due to the installation of ERA.

 

[MANT!]

Can active protection system deal with tandem charges?

Who needs an active protection system to defeat tandam charges?

How Armor Is Evolving to Beat Tank-Smashing RPGs

Slatted or cage armor is usually good enough..