Is the tank becoming obsolete?

Bhadra

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Re: MSPO 2012 Military Exhibition in Kielce.

No such thing existed. India is just interested in WPB (Wielozadaniowa Platforma Bojowa) Anders Universal Combat Platform in WWO/LC (Wóz Wsparcia Ogniowego/Lekki Czołg) Light Tank variant.








All these are based on one single platform, in fact all these vehicles, are just one, single build up to this day technology demonstrator in different configurations. If India is interested in cooperation then probably right people are talking about this, we will know in nearest future.
Very good . You expect that vehicle to climb Himalayas !! BMP -2 could not climb hills of Afghanistan perfectly.
 

Damian

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Re: MSPO 2012 Military Exhibition in Kielce.

Very good . You expect that vehicle to climb Himalayas !! BMP -2 could not climb hills of Afghanistan perfectly.
I do not understood this. So everyone should resign from armored vehicles entirely because they are not capable to climb on mount everest? And BMP-2 was actually very effective vehicle in Afghanistan, the actuall problem was it's armor protection, this is why vehicles there were modified in to BMP-2D variant that was slightly up armored, and could not swimm.

WPB Anders actually is something more than IFV or Light Tank, it is medium weight, Universal Combat Platform, and what is more important, even in Technology Demonstrator phase, it one of more succesfull vehicles, that shows what capabilities our engineers have even with limited funding.
 

Bhadra

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Re: MSPO 2012 Military Exhibition in Kielce.

Damian
First of all my apologies if I ever meant that armour vehicle needs to climb everest !!

The battle for capture of territories is over !!

Today's battle as being fought by USA is the battle for Regime Change through change on mind and may be through money power and lastly asymetric warfares for population controls.

Todays wars are meant for safeguarding the products and economy of the "Fourth Revolution" ... Technology - for IPR and cutting edge science, space, sattalites and missiles. energy resources, new minerals, new sources of energy etc and etc... are vast challenges rather than Al Khalids mounting on India. That is also a challenge but minor one.

Those Colonial wars as you rightly say will be fought by stupid countries like India China and Pakistan. Though India is trying to wriggle out of it through development in IT, Science and Technology, Finance, Pharmacology etc.

You are obsessed with Tanks as you are a good salesman. I am not obsessed with armour at all being an obsolete system, redundant and white elephant. Libiya, Turkey, Iraq and Afghanistan are not being captured by tanks but with fourth generation technology - Communications, intelligence, UAV, Drones and lastly the man ( commonly called Infantry in various forms such as marines, AB personnel, the SF, Helloborne etc). If USA loses in Afghanistan it would be due to quality of man and not quality of their bloody tank and APC.....

Pakistan has paid attention to development of that asset called Taliban the mind and the man and not the tank. And they are right as even the fourth generation technology may still not be able to override the machine called man.

I wish India prepares itself for the fourth generation warfare rather than hunt for Polish Tanks - insurgencies, natural disasters, ecological devastations, Tsunamis, earthquakes, Floods, NBC Catastrophes, Soil erosions, water management and humanitarian relief..

Like in China only Army can do it in India. Other organisations do not have those capabilities. That is the colonial nature of our system.

No one needs upgrading tanks here every ten years at the cost of other things. We have had, Shermans, Vickers, T-55, T-72 and now T-90 . Four time changes worth billions without Armour being capable of meeting mentioned challenges.
Generations of tanks have been retired from garages.


On the other side WWII SLR continues.. what the heck !!

We are not Poland at the junction of tank threat from all around. India faces gravest of threat from mountains.
 
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Damian

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Re: MSPO 2012 Military Exhibition in Kielce.

Damian
First of all my apologies if I ever meant that armour vehicle needs to climb everest !!

The battle for capture of territories is over !!

Today's battle as being fought by USA is the battle for Regime Change through change on mind and may be through money power and lastly asymetric warfares for population controls.

Todays wars are meant for safeguarding the products and economy of the "Fourth Revolution" ... Technology - for IPR and cutting edge science, space, sattalites and missiles. energy resources, new minerals, new sources of energy etc and etc... are vast challenges rather than Al Khalids mounting on India. That is also a challenge but minor one.

Those Colonial wars as you rightly say will be fought by stupid countries like India China and Pakistan. Though India is trying to wriggle out of it through development in IT, Science and Technology, Finance, Pharmacology etc.

You are obsessed with Tanks as you are a good salesman. I am not obsessed with armour at all being an obsolete system, redundant and white elephant. Libiya, Turkey, Iraq and Afghanistan are not being captured by tanks but with fourth generation technology - Communications, intelligence, UAV, Drones and lastly the man ( commonly called Infantry in various forms such as marines, AB personnel, the SF, Helloborne etc). If USA loses in Afghanistan it would be due to quality of man and not quality of their bloody tank and APC.....

Pakistan has paid attention to development of that asset called Taliban the mind and the man and not the tank. And they are right as even the fourth generation technology may still not be able to override the machine called man.

I wish India prepares itself for the fourth generation warfare rather than hunt for Polish Tanks - insurgencies, natural disasters, ecological devastations, Tsunamis, earthquakes, Floods, NBC Catastrophes, Soil erosions, water management and humanitarian relief..

Like in China only Army can do it in India. Other organisations do not have those capabilities. That is the colonial nature of our system.

No one needs upgrading tanks here every ten years at the cost of other things. We have had, Shermans, Vickers, T-55, T-72 and now T-90 . Four time changes worth billions without Armour being capable of meeting mentioned challenges.
Generations of tanks have been retired from garages.


On the other side WWII SLR continues.. what the heck !!

We are not Poland at the junction of tank threat from all around. India faces gravest of threat from mountains.
This is very naive thinking. As I said, after 1st World War people were beliving that this was the last war, after 2nd World War people were thinking the same, although were more pesimistic and realistic.

I'am realist, I do not belive in peace or that only terrorists will be dangerous, neither that there will be only cyber warfare.

In fact, I would rather prepare for worst, and instead of investing in the damn computers that can't do much, and are vurnable to espionage, I would spent my money on conventional army that can defend borders, instead of some other solutions that are only pretending that are doing something.
 

pmaitra

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Re: MSPO 2012 Military Exhibition in Kielce.

Very good . You expect that vehicle to climb Himalayas !! BMP -2 could not climb hills of Afghanistan perfectly.
I do not understood this. So everyone should resign from armored vehicles entirely because they are not capable to climb on mount everest?
Damian
First of all my apologies if I ever meant that armour vehicle needs to climb everest !!

The battle for capture of territories is over !!
Mount Everest is not in Afghanistan. UAZ-469, with its 75 hp engine, conquered the Pamirs. BMP-2s were pretty good at negotiating the mountain roads of Afghanistan; however, the Afghan War was fought mainly with helicopters. It was a helicopter-war, with a bulk of the operations undertaken by Mil-17 and Mil-24/35 helicopters.
 

david39553

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its effective support vehicle for infantry and i would not want light armored vehicle to replace tank that supports infantry, i donno if u ware infantry but i was and i would not trade tank for any other light vehicle i felt alot safer with tanks around than apcs, and it also has flechet rounds for soft targets and they are not expensive and if country cant cover tank expenses solution is simply dont buy tanks and go get apcs or something cheaper, also if tanks ware obsolete top militarys would not be using them today.

sorry for bad english its not my main language
 
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Bhadra

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The same is about ALL moving on the ground vehicles - so APC's, IFV's, tanks, MRAP's etc.
So tanks here are in not better and not worse situation then other vehicles.


So? What's point?


Frontal tank armour? Propably not.
Side and top armour? Yes, they are. Of course if tanks have not APS...



Defiently not, in fact there is exatly opposide direction now.


21st Century Warfare Renders the Tank Obsolete : RIP: Army Tanks, 1915-2014

21st Century Warfare Renders the Tank Obsolete


See if you can identify the following pattern and guess what comes next...

A fist, a rock, a club, a spear, an arrow, a sword, a cannon, a musket, a machine gun, a tank, a _____.

Each of these is a weapon whose widespread use made the previous one obsolete. So what comes next? What is the next weapon that will make the tank obsolete?

"The manufacturing of tanks — powerful but cumbersome — is no longer essential," the Washington Post recently wrote, citing U.S. military commentary. "In modern warfare, forces must deploy quickly and project power over great distances. Submarines and long-range bombers are needed. Weapons such as drones — nimble and tactical — are the future. Tanks are something of a relic."

The Tank's Demise

While the tank, the airplane, and the submarine all emerged at about the same time and were first used together in warfare in World War I, the tank quickly rose to become the dominant unit on the battlefield.

Although air superiority grew in importance throughout the 20th century in clearing the way for advancing troops, the tank remained utterly essential to storming and securing enemy targets and installations. In the Six-Day War in 1967, for example, more than 2,500 tanks were used between Arab and Israeli forces.

That dominance is no longer. Rapid advances in miniaturization and computer automation have produced the weapon of the future: the aerial drone.

It can be equipped with fearsome firepower while costing only $3 or $4 million — half as much as an $8 million Abrams tank, a quarter as much as a $15 million Blackhawk helicopter, and a sixth as much as a $25 million F18 fighter.

While ground forces will still be required to capture and secure buildings and territory, that task can now be performed by a much cheaper infantry platoon without any tanks at all — just a few inexpensive and well-equipped drones circling overhead.

Already in the U.S., two major defense contractors have been scaling back the production and refurbishing of tanks and armored personnel carriers. The York, Pennsylvania plant of British contractor BAE Systems (LSE: BA), which had been building and refurbishing the Bradley Fighting Vehicle for the U.S. Army, has already dismissed half of its workforce, with more layoffs last December.

"The reality of it is we've already started shutting down," manufacturing executive Alice Conner informed the Washington Post. "If BAE does not get any new Bradley funding — or win new work from commercial firms or foreign governments, it will close the line in 2015."

In another defense spending casualty, General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), which builds M1 Abrams tanks — the most powerful tank in the world — is scaling down its Lima, Ohio factory. Over the past decade, the contractor's workforce has been slashed from over 1,200 to some 500 today.

The Army simply doesn't see the need for more tanks. Speaking before Congress in 2012, General Raymond Odierno, the Army's chief of staff, put it as simply as possible: "We don't need the tanks. Our tank fleet is two and a half years old on average now. We're in good shape, and these are additional tanks that we don't need."

In response, defense contractors and their over 500 suppliers have lobbied hard, convincing Congress to write them huge checks worth $140 million for Bradley vehicles and $74 million for Abrams tanks for fiscal year 2014.

The fear isn't just over the loss of jobs, but over losing the technology and manufacturing skills as well.

But experts like Angela Canterbury of the Project on Government Oversight criticized the move. "It is really making us less safe when we're throwing money that's hard to come by at programs that don't meet what should be our current national security strategy."

Just what should the national security strategy focus on? Many believe it's the weapon of the future... the drone.

The Rise of the Drones

Besides being cheaper to build and maintain than fighter jets, the greatest advantage of drones is that they are unmanned and are thus capable of long-range, long-endurance flight.

The world record for the longest flight belongs to the QinetiQ Zephyr drone built by British defense company QinetiQ (LSE: QQ) for a flight lasting 336 hours and 22 minutes — just over 14 days straight.

Another advantage is not requiring a pressurized cockpit, saving space and cost. Drones can fly to altitudes of 60,000 feet and higher and perform high g-force maneuvers which pilots cannot.

And there is something else they can do, as was recently demonstrated for the first time in Australia last week: They can auto-detect potential collisions.

Researchers at Queensland Unmanned Aircraft System in conjunction with Boeing Research & Technology Australia (BR&T-A) and unmanned aircraft developer Insitu Pacific have developed an onboard aircraft detection system enabling drones to detect other aircraft in their vicinity.

During a test flight near Brisbane, Australia last week, the equipped drone "provided real time warnings back to the ground control station, resulting in a successful manual collision avoidance manoeuvre," Phys.Org reported. It is a critical development in making unmanned drones safer for use in civilian/commercial airspace.

"Project ResQu," ARCAA director and QUT Professor Duncan Campbell explained, "aims to fast-track the development of smart technologies that will enable unmanned aircraft to fly safely in the civil airspace. Ultimately, this will allow UA to provide public services such as assistance in disaster management and recovery, as well as in environmental, biosecurity and resource management."

There is just one more obstacle to overcome in the development of the ultimate drone...

"The final technical hurdle to UA operating in civil airspace," Campbell identified, "is their ability to land safely in an emergency."

But rest assured, his team is working on that too. "Our collaborative research is expected to make significant strides towards overcoming this hurdle, too, in the coming months."

Once all those systems are in place, all you need to add are guns and missiles to produce the ultimate fighting machine. Low cost, high maneuverability, long endurance, collision detection and avoidance, and self-landing — drones will soon change the way battles are fought and won.

And that is just for military applications. There are countless uses besides, including firefighting in remote areas, search and rescue, wildlife monitoring, volcanic studies, emergency aid deliveries, even criminal pursuits.


Investor Opportunities

Is the field of drone technology too new for viable investment opportunities? Hardly. Just have a browse through this list of 490 companies worldwide ranging from UAV manufacturers to software designers to drone operators.

More than 90 of them are American, including AeroVironment (NASDAQ: AVAV), Boeing (NYSE: BA) — which owns Insitu, noted above — Honeywell (NYSE: HON), Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT), Northrop Grumman (NYSE: NOC), Rockwell Collins (NYSE: COL), and Textron (NYSE: TXT).

Yet as we have seen in the recent awarding of over $200 million to manufacturers and refurbishers of armored vehicles and tanks, we are still in that middle stage between the old and the new. It's a lot like the First World War, which saw a motley blend of brand new tanks and planes mixed with rapidly antiquating sabres and bayonets.

But anyone with an eye for practicality and cost-efficiency can see how drones will usher in a whole new era of working and fighting from the air. We are in the midst of a major shift from conventional to ultra-modern. Government funding priorities will eventually shift with it, as will commercial investment priorities.


Welcome to the 21st century. Nothing lasts for centuries anymore. A technology's shelf life is down to mere decades now, getting shorter all the time.Until next time,

Joseph Cafariello for Wealth Daily
 

pmaitra

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Re: MBT armour - active and passive. Cross-sections and descriptions.

But I only stated a fact ?
What you stated might be a fact, and I think @militarysta wants to have a narrow topic dedicated to armour cross sections. Let him have a dedicated thread.

If you want to discuss whether the tank is becoming obsolete, please open a new thread, entitled "Is the tank becoming obsolete?" I am assuming no such thread exists.
 
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Bhadra

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Re: MBT armour - active and passive. Cross-sections and descriptions.

AIR- SEA BATTLE - Service Collaboration to Address
Anti-Access & Area Denial Challenges, May 2013




PRIMARY MISSIONS OF THE U.S. ARMED FORCES
"¢ Counter Terrorism & Irregular Warfare
"¢ Deter & Defeat Aggression
"¢ Project Power Despite Anti-Access/Area Denial Challenges
"¢ Counter Weapons of Mass Destruction
"¢ Operate Effectively in Cyberspace and Space
"¢ Maintain a Safe, Secure, & Effective Nuclear Deterrent
"¢ Defend Homeland & Provide Support to Civil Authorities
"¢ Provide A Stabilizing Presence
"¢ Conduct Stability & Counterinsurgency Operations
"¢ Conduct Humanitarian, Disaster Relief & Other Operations


Sorry sir, there is no role of Tanks in these operations !!
 

Bhadra

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Re: MBT armour - active and passive. Cross-sections and descriptions.

What you stated might be a fact, and I think @militarysta wants to have a narrow topic dedicated to armour cross sections. Let him have a dedicated thread.

If you want to discuss whether the tank is becoming obsolete, please open a new thread, entitled "Is the tank becoming obsolete?" I am assuming no such thread exists.


That is a good suggestion
 
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ghost

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Re: MBT armour - active and passive. Cross-sections and descriptions.

AIR- SEA BATTLE - Service Collaboration to Address
Anti-Access & Area Denial Challenges, May 2013




PRIMARY MISSIONS OF THE U.S. ARMED FORCES
Counter Terrorism & Irregular Warfare
Deter & Defeat Aggression
Project Power Despite Anti-Access/Area Denial Challenges
"¢ Counter Weapons of Mass Destruction
"¢ Operate Effectively in Cyberspace and Space
"¢ Maintain a Safe, Secure, & Effective Nuclear Deterrent
Defend Homeland & Provide Support to Civil Authorities
Provide A Stabilizing Presence
Conduct Stability & Counterinsurgency Operations
"¢ Conduct Humanitarian, Disaster Relief & Other Operations


Sorry sir, there is no role of Tanks in these operations !!
Sir,

Tanks play important part for the highlighted operations.

Now when we are talking about use of tanks,let's see what is going around all over the world.



Isis tank in iraq.Project Power Despite Anti-Access/Area Denial Challenges


Turkish tanks take up position on Syrian border, next to Kobani.Provide A Stabilizing Presence



An Israeli Markava tank runs in the field in southern Israel near the border with Gaza, on the tenth day of Operation Protective Edge, on July 17, 2014.Counter Terrorism & Irregular Warfare



A Syrian government forces' tank rolls in the Khaldiyeh district of Syria's central city of Homs.Conduct Stability & Counterinsurgency Operations



Pro-Russian rebels ride on a tank near the village of Berezove, eastern UkraineDefend Homeland & Provide Support to Civil Authorities



Ukrainian soldiers ride a tank on a road close to where pro-Russian rebels firedDeter & Defeat Aggression



Troops from the People's Protection Units (YPG) in northern Syria previouslyDeter & Defeat Aggression


You win a war when you hold and dominate land,and there is nothing better than tank to do it @pmaitra sir,move this to a new thread if you feel,but I don't think there is anything to debate here.
 
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Bhadra

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Re: MBT armour - active and passive. Cross-sections and descriptions.

Sir,

Tanks play important part for the highlighted operations.

Now when we are talking about use of tanks,let's see what is going around all over the world.

Isis tank in iraq.Project Power Despite Anti-Access/Area Denial Challenges

Turkish tanks take up position on Syrian border, next to Kobani.Provide A Stabilizing Presence

An Israeli Markava tank runs in the field in southern Israel near the border with Gaza, on the tenth day of Operation Protective Edge, on July 17, 2014.Counter Terrorism & Irregular Warfare

A Syrian government forces' tank rolls in the Khaldiyeh district of Syria's central city of Homs.Conduct Stability & Counterinsurgency Operations

Pro-Russian rebels ride on a tank near the village of Berezove, eastern UkraineDefend Homeland & Provide Support to Civil Authorities


Ukrainian soldiers ride a tank on a road close to where pro-Russian rebels firedDeter & Defeat Aggression

Troops from the People's Protection Units (YPG) in northern Syria previouslyDeter & Defeat Aggression


You win a war when you hold and dominate land, and there is nothing better than tank to do it @pmaitra sir,move this to a new thread if you feel,but I don't think there is anything to debate here.
Ghost Sir,

I like your presentation.

All arguments you have extended prove the point of the author of article I quoted. All you are exhibiting are very local wars where Tanks are existing and rebels and locals are exhibiting their old machines as also they do not have better alternatives.

I am talking about war in 21st Century and futuristic wars technologically.

USA has mothballed their tanks, almost disbanded their Armor divisions and fallen on to Strykers which are more of APC than tanks.


OK, tell me why Western powers and USA are not responding to the things with their tanks ??

The things you highlighted will be done by elements other than tanks because operations from Sea and Air involving tanks are counter productive in terms of efforts and cost. The era of Air Land battles are over. Now it is sea air battles. Land has been delegated into oblivion.

Lastly, Tanks neither capture land nor are capable of holding land. That is basics..
 
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ghost

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Do Tanks Have a Future?

@Bhadra sir,


All arguments you have extended prove the point of the author of article I quoted. All you are exhibiting are very local wars where Tanks are existing and rebels and locals are exhibiting their old machines as also they do not have better alternatives.
Until we have next world war or a major war among two great powers,I guess we will have to do with these war,but these war represent the ongoing trend in asymmetrical warfare.Israel have all the major technology available,and while they did make use of them ,tanks were an integral part of there operations.Turkey choose tanks to project their power at its border,Indian army has ordered new arjun mk2 tanks,Iraqi army has purchased new US tanks.And the ones which did not have any ,made them with whatever means they had at there disposal,while pro Russian rebels where supplied tanks from Russia.





I am talking about war in 21st Century and futuristic wars technologically.
What made you think that tanks will not evolve with time,drone tanks,new counter measures,new armour,modular tanks,there is immense possibility for future tanks.

USA has mothballed their tanks, almost disbanded their Armor divisions and fallen on to Strykers which are more of APC than tanks.
Us has great experience in warfare,I respect their military mind,but it does not in any sense means that whatever they do and say is the ultimate truth.They have made their fair share of mistakes in past,at present and will do in future.In contradiction to this see what a major power and another future power are doing ,India, Russia plan to build futuristic main battle tankIndia, Russia plan to build futuristic main battle tank - The Hindu.Does "Armata" ring a bell.

I would like to see US to face Russian aggression ,with their Strykers.


OK, tell me why Western powers and USA are not responding to the things with their tanks ??
Because they are in no mood of responding at all with their full might,in Iraq they have refused to deploy ground power,airstrikes are the token measures which they have to take to justify their super power status.Even US army senior officers and their expert believe that airstrikes are not enough to take out isis ,without the use of ground forces.The reason to not to use land forces is political.

The things you highlighted will be done by elements other than tanks because operations from Sea and Air involving tanks are counter productive in terms of efforts and cost. The era of Air Land battles are over. Now it is sea air battles. Land has been delegated into oblivion.
If Russia invade any NATO country,India decide to launch cold start then we will see.

Lastly, Tanks neither capture land nor are capable of holding land. That is basics..
War is various elements working in synergy to achieve one goal,no one element alone will win you the war.Tanks are an important element of war.That is basics.......
Someday, perhaps not at all distant, some would-be world conqueror will send out his columns of carefully hoarded MBTs only to have them met by swarms of small, fast drone tanks, difficult to spot and impossible to track, backed up by more conventional-appearing armored monsters that can scarcely be targeted and simply shrug off the rounds when they're hit. Once again, the armored weapon will have proven its value. And once again we will no doubt hear voices insisting that its day is through.

Do Tanks Have a Future? by J.R. Dunn - Baen Books

Tanks in its current form might not have any role in future battlefield,but they will evolve to embrace the future.
 
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sgarg

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Re: Do Tanks Have a Future?

Massed armour has NOT become obsolete. Street fighting is always difficult however armour still provides far more protection than otherwise in street battles.

Tank will likely carry both AT and SAM in future, as they become more all rounded platform. However tank main gun still has serious destructive power which is hard to beat.

In an environment where both adversaries have significant anti-aircraft weapons, tanks and other forms of artillery are still indispensable.
 

Bhadra

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Re: Do Tanks Have a Future?

Sir,

Military power is applied in a scenario with a politacl purpose, with an aim and objective - supreme of that being subjugation of the opponent to the extent of imposing one's aims and objective on the enemy.

The Latest US doctrine, as I brought out earlier is no longer Air Land battles aimed as capturing territories and destruction of land forces but to conduct Air Sea battle in the conventional arena. That is not directed at capturing territory but at destruction of force. For that they consider sea and air assets as primary means.

At global scale the US aims primarily at Regime stabilisation and Regime Change a la Iraq or Syria. For that they do not visualise conducting land battles. The application of military power will remain primarily confines to massive use of air and naval assets.

Tanks will very much remain there like any other weapon system but only localised and for local wars. For countries like India and Pakistan. For Arab world and may be for Russians and Chinese.
Nations have land boundaries with each other and wherever terrain permit, tanks will be used.

But will Tanks be the war winners ?

That is the theme or the question.

A side which has better aerial weapons, smart weapons, drones, UCAV, UAVs etc will win because these platforms will emerge as Tank killers. Technological development in anti tank sphere
has far outpaced the technology in protection or defeating ant tank weapons.

That technology will overshadow tanks.

Aerial platforms have emerged as technology of Global dominance.

It is cheaper, more effective, entails less casualties and quick in deployment.

Do not look at tanks in a narrow confinement of India and Pakistan. Look at the Tank as a global system and one realises that their application has been rendered to be local where other alternatives do not exist.

Even for Israel better alternatives have emerged and they are effectively using those.
 

ghost

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Re: Do Tanks Have a Future?

Sir,

Military power is applied in a scenario with a politacl purpose, with an aim and objective - supreme of that being subjugation of the opponent to the extent of imposing one's aims and objective on the enemy.
US war in Afghanistan and Iraq?One of the great lessons of recent military history is that wars cannot be won through air power alone; you need boots on the ground. Recall, for instance, the exaggerated claims of "shock and awe" prior to the 2003 liberation of Iraq. Exponents of air power had assured us that the decisive exercise of military power, principally through aerial bombardment, could paralyze the enemy, destroy his will to fight, and render him impotent.

In fact, it was only after U.S. soldiers and Marines engaged the enemy in close combat that Iraqi government and Fedayeen forces surrendered and Iraq was liberated. Even then it took additional close combat over several years ─ in Fallujah, Mosul, Najaf, Baghdad, and elsewhere ─ before the military component of the Iraq War was truly won.

And Iraq is hardly the only example that proves the crucial necessity of ground forces in modern-day conflicts. In Afghanistan, for instance, U.S. Marines are today engaging the enemy in close-quarters combat to protect the Afghan citizenry. Jets and air ordinance can't do this; only soldiers and Marines can.

The Latest US doctrine, as I brought out earlier is no longer Air Land battles aimed as capturing territories and destruction of land forces but to conduct Air Sea battle in the conventional arena. That is not directed at capturing territory but at destruction of force. For that they consider sea and air assets as primary means.

At global scale the US aims primarily at Regime stabilisation and Regime Change a la Iraq or Syria. For that they do not visualise conducting land battles. The application of military power will remain primarily confines to massive use of air and naval assets.
Us has great experience in warfare,I respect their military mind,but it does not in any sense means that whatever they do and say is the ultimate truth.They have made their fair share of mistakes in past,at present and will do in future
.

There are 194 widely recognized countries in the world apart from US.Do not confined your military thinking to "US is world and world is US" .


Tanks will very much remain there like any other weapon system but only localised and for local wars. For countries like India and Pakistan. For Arab world and may be for Russians and Chinese.
Nations have land boundaries with each other and wherever terrain permit, tanks will be used.
Actually the use of tanks depend on the objective you want to achieve,if you want to punish,hurt or send a message of your power,missiles will do the work.But if you have to get involved in anything more than this,ground forces and tanks will have to do the dirty work.

But will Tanks be the war winners ?

That is the theme or the question.
Air power alone will not win you wars,that is my answer along with what I have already said.
War is various elements working in synergy to achieve one goal,no one element alone will win you the war.Tanks are an important element of war.That is basics......

A side which has better aerial weapons, smart weapons, drones, UCAV, UAVs etc will win because these platforms will emerge as Tank killers. Technological development in anti tank sphere
has far outpaced the technology in protection or defeating ant tank weapons.

That technology will overshadow tanks.

Aerial platforms have emerged as technology of Global dominance.

It is cheaper, more effective, entails less casualties and quick in deployment.
You are living in your LALA land,where aircraft will destroy everything,aircraft carrier will perish everything.
You ignore the fact that various air defence system,manpads ,tank mounted air defence system in future,will take them out.S-400 "Triumph",Spyder,Akash and Patriot will create air deniability,let american planes and missile gather courage to fly over Russian airspace,they will be shown their place.Same with the anti-ship ballistic missiles,they will take down your aircraft carrier.Iran's "Carrier Killer" Missile Improves Accuracy | The Diplomat,Report: Chinese Develop Special "Kill Weapon" to Destroy U.S. Aircraft Carriers | U.S. Naval Institute

Do not look at tanks in a narrow confinement of India and Pakistan. Look at the Tank as a global system and one realises that their application has been rendered to be local where other alternatives do not exist.

Even for Israel better alternatives have emerged and they are effectively using those.
Do not look at tanks at narrow confinement of US,other alternatives always exist but tank will be always there in "full fledged wars" ,and most of the big scale military operations.For eg if Russia invade a NATO country ,US tanks will roll out against Russia.By the way Why does UN peace keeper use tank?



President Obama and Defense Secretary Gates, meanwhile, have canceled development of the Army's first new ground combat vehicle in more than a generation. But if we are serious about winning the war against the jihadists, then we need to seriously modernize the military, with an appropriate emphasis upon the ground forces who are doing the fighting and dying on our behalf. However, before we can modernize the military, we first have to modernize the thinking in Washington
Air Power Alone Cannot Win Wars
 

Bhadra

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Oh... Just look at what is happening in Pakistan...

Just by using a single platform called Drones, US is all set to achive their aims...

Why go far off..
 

ghost

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Oh... Just look at what is happening in Pakistan...

Just by using a single platform called Drones, US is all set to achive their aims...

Why go far off..
Sir ,

Please read my post with detail,because the question you raise had been already answered.
Actually the use of tanks depend on the objective you want to achieve,if you want to punish,hurt or send a message of your power,missiles will do the work.But if you have to get involved in anything more than this,ground forces and tanks will have to do the dirty work.
For eg Hafiz saeed,Dawood ibrahim,terrorist training camp can be destroyed by use of missile and air power.But to take back POK,dismantling of Pakistan into various small countries,or complete and proper destruction of Pakistan military might land forces will be needed.

Even UN need tanks to assert its domination.As @sgarg sir had rightly said"the protection of armor and firepower that tank offer is unmatched"
 
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Bhadra

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Re: Do Tanks Have a Future?

you need boots on the ground.
Tanks are not boots on ground. This much is the basics..... It is Infantry ..

Exponents of air power had assured us that the decisive exercise of military power, principally through aerial bombardment, could paralyze the enemy, destroy his will to fight, and render him impotent.
But that what happened. It was not the might of Abrahams but that of air which made the Iraqi tanks the birds of the garages and made US Armour to roll over.

There are 194 widely recognized countries in the world apart from US.Do not confined your military thinking to "US is world and world is US" .
What is the value of those countries when USA by using their might can enforce what kind of government they will have and who will be in governance.

You are living in your LALA land,where aircraft will destroy everything,aircraft carrier will perish everything.
You ignore the fact that various air defence system,manpads ,tank mounted air defence system in future,will take them out.S-400 "Triumph",Spyder,Akash and Patriot will create air deniability,let american planes and missile gather courage to fly over Russian airspace,they will be shown their place.Same with the anti-ship ballistic missiles,they will take down your aircraft carrier.Iran's "Carrier Killer" Missile Improves Accuracy | The Diplomat,Report: Chinese Develop Special "Kill Weapon" to Destroy U.S. Aircraft Carriers | U.S. Naval Institute
World is not Russia or China. I agree that there have been tremendous development is anti aircraft technology too. Russian systems were available with Iraq. What they did was f ----- all. The anti aircraft technology has not won over the aircraft so far. Afghanistan operations did exhibit the power of Stingers against the careless Russians but where are those Stingers against the US air operations and drones ? Where are those Stingers against the US air operations and Apaches digging holes on Mujahidin ?

Was there any tank battles in Iraq.

Now you live in a Lalla land.

In fact, it was only after U.S. soldiers and Marines engaged the enemy in close combat that Iraqi government and Fedayeen forces surrendered and Iraq was liberated. Even then it took additional close combat over several years ─ in Fallujah, Mosul, Najaf, Baghdad, and elsewhere ─ before the military component of the Iraq War was truly won.
I have no objection to that. Infantry elements can not be replaced by any thing .. No robots No tanks and No aircrfts. My argument is that tanks can be replaced by air power.

Do not look at tanks at narrow confinement of US,other alternatives always exist but tank will be always there in "full fledged wars" ,and most of the big scale military operations.For eg if Russia invade a NATO country ,US tanks will roll out against Russia
Look at tanks from the point of view of global dominance and global wars. Can any country having large forces of tanks prevent US or Russian assaults on their land without tanks. I do not think so. Tanks as the day have lost their deterrent value.

By the way Why does UN peace keeper use tank?
Ha ha Ha ... where are the UN missions conducted ? Or being conducted ?
Where are the opposing Forces having tanks there ?
where is the air power there with opposing forces ?
When have tanks ever been used in UN missions ?

They are simply there in a primitive environment to threaten the erring party to use tanks against the AK-47 troting party...
What happened to the best Indian Tanks in Srilanka against LTTE ?

What happened to US tanks in Afghanistan ??

You think that proves utility of tanks in modern combat ??

I think it is other way round.

When describing tanks as a platform, do not mix it up with marines, Infantry or SF and do not justify existence of tanks in the name of other ground forces.
 
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