INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[pmaitra]

@ALBY,

Yes, I agree that getting rid of that traditional butt stock with all kinds of instruments was a good idea. I think this was a carry over from our old traditions of having small items needed for the maintenance of the rifle stowed away in the butt stock. This was the case with the SMLEs and IIRC the FN-FALs as well, and found its way into the INSAS. Another thing that was carried over from FN-FAL into the INSAS is the suitcase carrying handle. I have not been many people use it.

Now, coming to the barrel, I see more than 2 kg difference between the INSAS AR and INSAS LMG. So, taking into account the bipod stand of the INSAS LMG, I suspect the additional weight to allow for a reliable heavier barrel capable of sustaining fully automatic fire would be more than a few ounces. This is my guess, of course, as I said earlier, I have little information in the Excalibur and I seek more.

Excalibur in full auto does not mean one is going to use it in full auto all the time, or at least, I hope not, but in the face of death, people can do a lot of things, as people, i.e., well trained soldiers have done in the past. It is worth mentioning here that the Soviet troops would usually keep their AK-74s in full auto mode, and use tap-fire to let out short bursts, and with practice, one can give out three round bursts with the rifle set to full auto. So, yes, you, and @blueblood have a valid point, about the usefulness of having the full auto option.

I will add a few things. I still believe there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Here is a comparison. The 5.56 NATO should be used for regular infantry and the 7.62 x 39 should be used for COIN.

 

[Chinmoy]

Here I would like to add that, Excalibur does give choice of Single shot, Burst shot and full Automatic. And I think keeping all these three effects on an weapon is excellent. As far as marksmanship is concerned, I do agree with pmaitra on it. One can't expect a infantry man to do a Rambo stunt on the heights of Himalaya's. We do need a rifle which is accurate and a bullet which hits hard.

Moreover I think a version of INSAS, Kalantak had been formed along with MSMC for CQB. But I think none of them ever made it to our forces.

 

[blueblood]

@ALBY , Americans wanted 7.62 NATO more for the range and less for the stopping power. IA wants 7.62 for stopping power not for the range. As I said, distinction is for the better.


Though off topic but another change in the mindset is Jackal family of vehicles. Worked well in the Afghanistan but would be complete disaster in Chechnya or Kashmir.

Afghanistan changed a lot of things from the Western perspective.

 

[ALBY]

Now, coming to the barrel, I see more than 2 kg difference between the INSAS AR and INSAS LMG. So, taking into account the bipod stand of the INSAS LMG, I suspect the additional weight to allow for a reliable heavier barrel capable of sustaining fully automatic fire would be more than a few ounces. This is my guess, of course, as I said earlier, I have little information in the Excalibur and I seek more.

Actually i was not referring about inducting the barrel of LMG in INSAS AR,but a new barrel with only slightly more weight.But not that bulky as of LMG.As service life of LMG and AR are different (in terms of rounds fired) coz LMG is meant to fire much more rouunds than the usual AR.So naturally the the weight of the barrel of LMG will be much higher,but full AR doesn't need that much mass.
Example is HK416 and IAR , both of them have same lineage but the barrel of IAR much bulky.
Its true that nothing could suppliment a weapon firing M43 round in a CQB or CT ops but a full auto INSAS means it could have added to the suppressive fire ability of regular infantry men .
Besides thhat what amuses me is that why till date no objection was raised against low mag capacity of INSAS ARs. As as usual soldiers jacket allows only 4 mags at max AFAIK.And in CT ops we see most of these men except SF have no bag or any thing to carry ammo,but those pouches in jackets.For short engagements this may be Ok.But for long duration engagements low clip capacity is an issue..One of the reason for induction for 5.56 was that men could carry more ammo.But here the quantity carried is same.

 

[pmaitra]

@ALBY , Americans wanted 7.62 NATO more for the range and less for the stopping power. IA wants 7.62 for stopping power not for the range. As I said, distinction is for the better.


Though off topic but another change in the mindset is Jackal family of vehicles. Worked well in the Afghanistan but would be complete disaster in Chechnya or Kashmir.

Afghanistan changed a lot of things from the Western perspective.

True.

One is 7.62x39 Soviet (stopping power) and the other one is 7.62x51 NATO (range).

 

[Adioz]

Also how many US/russian military soldiers with full autoo rifles had been seen spraying their assault rifles?
It was a dumb idea to restrict the full auto fire.
Also in CQB where you may had to engage multiple enemies ,full auto only will come to aid.

I completely agree with you, there is no substitute for a full auto in CQB. Also, when you need to provide suppressing fire and you don't have a MG squad close by, you can start cussing the idiot who restricted full automatic mode.

And some should give a cookie to the one who decided INSAS needs only 22 round Mag,and not 30 round.

Are we talking poisoned cookie or handmade cookie? (Is it 22 round mag a good thing ..... I guess its not.)

No only a ill trained person will imitate Rambo or a gangster in actual battles.

NOBODY, remember NOBODY can ever imitate the GREAT RAMBO-SAMA.
The guy never reloads

 

[halloweene]

For the sake of the PIL and Indian media, lets just compare INSAS with say......... M-4 carbine, standard issue rifle for US army (hope our media don't have any issue with it). Both shoots 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges. INSAS weights at 4.15kg sans magazine whereas M-4 weighs at 2.88kg. M-4 muzzle velocity is @ 880m/s whereas INSAS is @ 900m/s. Effective range of both the rifles comes at around 500m. Now apart from weight, I don't see any other down term for INSAS.
Now lets see the problems in INSAS. It does jams repeatedly in extreme cold due to crack in the poly carbonate magazines and in desert due to sand infusion in the receiver.
Now lets see the problems in M-4 or better follow the link
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

Now, I am not saying that we shouldn't be looking for better options. IA does deserves the best, but we would also have to take in account the environmental conditions in which our rifles operate. The standard issue rifle has to operate from SIACHIN to THAR. So how could you expect a rifle to work in such extreme climate without having a snag or two and without proper maintenance.
I do think that the snags are to be rectified by proper brainstorming instead of filing a PIL or writing media reports and looking for foreign replacements. As far as maintenance is concerned, I am sure that IA is not suffering from the general mindset of our population. If we do purchase a AUDI we would use the best of lubricants in it and distilled water, but in case of a MARUTI, any lubricant or water from any source would do :biggrin2:.

Jokes apart, all I want to say is that, if INSAS is not the best in world, its also not the worst, as our media and some does portrays it to be. And I do believe that the next EXCALIBUR would be at par with BNARETTA's, COLT's et.al.

Answer is HK 416? piston drived ...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. One does not use full auto in suppressive fire, Firing 30-60 rnds full auto can damage the barrel or worst bent, Even in full auto the fire always goes in burst ..

2. If anyone use AK intesively will notice its inconvenient to use it in prone position that is due to its elongated magazine, Their is a reason why 1B1 has 22rnd capacity mag ..

5.56mm has evolved in time, Its no longer Vitnam`s era 5.56mm ..

PS : Still in tour, Went to the front-lines and got some nice pic of INSAS LMG..

you can start cussing the idiot who restricted full automatic mode.

Are we talking poisoned cookie or handmade cookie? (Is it 22 round mag a good thing ..... I guess its not.)

 

[pmaitra]

1. One does not use full auto in suppressive fire, Firing 30-60 rnds full auto can damage the barrel or worst bent, Even in full auto the fire always goes in burst ..

2. If anyone use AK intesively will notice its inconvenient to use it in prone position that is due to its elongated magazine, Their is a reason why 1B1 has 22rnd capacity mag ..

5.56mm has evolved in time, Its no longer Vitnam`s era 5.56mm ..

PS : Still in tour, Went to the front-lines and got some nice pic of INSAS LMG..

@Kunal Biswas, welcome back. I am eagerly waiting for your pictures of INSAS LMG.

 

[Adioz]

1. One does not use full auto in suppressive fire, Firing 30-60 rnds full auto can damage the barrel or worst bent, Even in full auto the fire always goes in burst ..

Sir, is this true for INSAS only or is it true for modern assault rifles like the French FAMAS as well?
Do SMGs like Vector face a similar problem?

2. If anyone use AK intesively will notice its inconvenient to use it in prone position that is due to its elongated magazine, Their is a reason why 1B1 has 22rnd capacity mag ..

Maybe a magazine that is flush with the length of the length of the rifle, like the one found on P-90s, can be employed to counter the problem.

 

[ALBY]

Actually the length of the mag of the 5.56 rifle is not that lengthy as that of an AK.If it was an issue no other country would have adopted 30 rounds instead of 20 rounds.Initially m-16s had 20 roundds later they chhanged to 30s

 

[pmaitra]

Sir, is this true for INSAS only or is it true for modern assault rifles like the French FAMAS as well?
Do SMGs like Vector face a similar problem?

Maybe a magazine that is flush with the length of the length of the rifle, like the one found on P-90s, can be employed to counter the problem.

The P-90 (or PS-90, which I have shot), has a magazine that sits on top of the barrel where each bullet is pushed, then makes a 90 degree turn, and is chambered. The bullets are small and it works. For 5.56 mm NATO bullets, the magazine will be pretty fat to sit on top of that barrel. I am not sure how it will work out, but it is worth giving a try. One thing to remember is that such an arrangement makes the rifle a bull-pup.

There is a simpler solution. Make a drum magazine.

 

[Adioz]

The bullets are small and it works. For 5.56 mm NATO bullets, the magazine will be pretty fat to sit on top of that barrel.

That is easily countered, instead of making the bullets fit horizontally in the magazine, have them fit with a slight slant (obtuse angle with the length of the magazine / barrel).

 

[Chinmoy]

Answer is HK 416? piston drived ...

I had always been a fan of German tech. May be its Weapons, Vehicles or home furnitures. They are top notch. I think even the legendary AK47 is based on MP-44 (its my personal opinion). Then there was that MG 42 and Panzerfaust. Tiger and Panzer tanks were awesome machines and weapons. Even the modern day MP 5 MP 7 and Sig Saur systems are good example of their engineering feat. Although HK 416 is not yet seen extensive combat role, but I am sure that it would surprise all with its performance.

But here I would like to add one thing. The real enemy of an assault rifle is sand. Here I am not taking about the coarse normal sand. What I am talking about is, fine grains of sand. No matter how best of the best lubricants you use in your machines, these fine particles would start accumulate over there and in the course of time will lead to problem mainly in the chamber (correct me if I am wrong). IA does operate in the desert of Thar too along with the chilling height of Siachin. So a weapon should be able to withstand not only extreme temperature, but also extreme foreign particles. And I think no manufacturer could make a weapon which is 100% proof of all these. So lets see how things come out after all these.

 

[ALBY]

Fcuk 30 character rule...

 

[pmaitra]

That is easily countered, instead of making the bullets fit horizontally in the magazine, have them fit with a slight slant (obtuse angle with the length of the magazine / barrel).

Trying to visualize that. Why not make a simple diagram in PowerPoint and upload?

 

[sayareakd]

Guys no doubt that we need modern rifles. But that does not mean INSAS is bad or outdated look at AK 47 today its still formidable weapon and will continue to be. What we should do is to upgrade INSAS. Our army is 10 million, its not possible to just change all in one go.
We need local solution for that number. Plus local upgrade both in terms of INSAS auto and other things which are going to increase the capacity of INSAS many fold.
God knows what our general are thinking and what our babus who push files have in mind. But I must say there is lack of vision and lack of strategic thinking and planning specially for common soldier.

Coming back to full auto I feel its complete waste of ammo. Common soldiers are issued one rifle and 100 ammo. If he got full auto, he might tempted to use full auto in the first posdible risky situation thereby using 20% ammo in one go. Soldier is trained to shoot with one bullet one enemy concept. Its not about pulling trigger. Its about taking out target. In case its emergency or spraying he can use three bust round, so that one bullet can hit target. Now to empty full magazine to hit one guy and spray all around in supressor situation is all American concept. They have military industrial complexes which feed on war and finding new enemies. We can't afford that. Specially with two enemies at our gates. But for taking on terrorist and enemy at our home. We have full auto rifle made by OFB.

 

[Blood+]

So how come US army re inducted full auto in M4s and discarded the 33 round bursts in latest models?
Today there is no distinction between rifles meant for regulars and ct forces.Only in india there is such distinction.
And how come army just wanted full auto in ex caliber instead of 3 round?Where the whole theory of bullet wastage went away?
In vietnam war most of the soldiers were not young men fresh out of boot camps.So spraying of bullets in full auto was an issue.

Yet the Marines are still issued and happy with their M16A4,which yet again,do not have full automatic mode of operation.
And besides,the M4 is not even a rifle,it's a carbine.Carbines are made much shorter than full length rifles,with shorter barrels and gas tubes,for unobstructed movement in confined places.So in short,the carbines are intended for shorter range combats,where full auto mode may and does become necessary at times.
There is a reason we get to hear so much whining by the US Army personnel of the 5.56 not having enough punch or their M4s getting jammed far too often,but that's not the case with the marines.

 

[Blood+]

Coming back to full auto I feel its complete waste of ammo. Common soldiers are issued one rifle and 100 ammo. If he got full auto, he might tempted to use full auto in the first posdible risky situation thereby using 20% ammo in one go. Soldier is trained to shoot with one bullet one enemy concept. Its not about pulling trigger. Its about taking out target. In case its emergency or spraying he can use three bust round, so that one bullet can hit target. Now to empty full magazine to hit one guy and spray all around in supressor situation is all American concept. They have military industrial complexes which feed on war and finding new enemies. We can't afford that. Specially with two enemies at our gates. But for taking on terrorist and enemy at our home. We have full auto rifle made by OFB.

I do not think that soldiers would be issued with just 100 rounds during times of emergency.It defeats the very purpose of shifting to 5.56 NATO from earlier 7.62 M80!!And besides,with the introduction of the newer load carrying tactical vests with webbing and 5-6 large ammo pouches lugged on them,I do not think soldiers are issued with a measly 100 rounds anymore.And if I recall correct,there had been instances during Kargil,where soldiers were carrying over 20 kg of ammo on them!!So I do not think that this 100 figure of yours holds any water.

 

[blueblood]

I do not think that soldiers would be issued with just 100 rounds during times of emergency.It defeats the very purpose of shifting to 5.56 NATO from earlier 7.62 M80!!And besides,with the introduction of the newer load carrying tactical vests with webbing and 5-6 large ammo pouches lugged on them,I do not think soldiers are issued with a measly 100 rounds anymore.And if I recall correct,there had been instances during Kargil,where soldiers were carrying over 20 kg of ammo on them!!So I do not think that this 100 figure of yours holds any water.

If what saya is saying is true then it should be enough for COIN ops although I remember it to be 1+3 mags (AKM).

But in case of a conventional war or conflict, this is definitely not true.

In case of Kargil, it wasn't 20 kgs of ammo but 20 or 24 kgs of everything.