INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Anikastha]

There a further improvement ongoing for this one

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-indigenous-excalibur-115090300012_1.html

It seems is Army throwing its weight on it finally as it is supposed to. Awaiting the next version of Excalibur. I think it will have elements of the MCIWS. It seems Army shooters are at Ishapore, shooting with various prototypes daily Now, this is what I call pro-active productive development. One can be sure, the Exclibur will end up being a world class rifle.

see Army will take nearly two for trail and testing..This the problem.

 

[Anikastha]

@pmaitra Sir, What was the draw back of fn-fals ? I have seen many police divisions from AP police with these guns..Brazil still uses Fn-fals.

 

[Immanuel]

see Army will take nearly two for trail and testing..This the problem.

Nah, this time it will go faster, as for once the Army is already involved in preliminary trials on daily basis before the weapon is sent even for final field trials. the weapons' reliability is being put to test everyday it seems. The main final tests will b end of year and mostly in harsh winter conditions in siachen and other forward areas in the deserts tough marine conditions in the south, normally I think they will wrap up the testing in a couple of months. The army has realized the urgency, even if all trails passed, it would take another 6 months before mass production can hit full speed, realistically regular units can only expect the rifle delivered end of next year. Besides the Excalibur already has a reliability of 99% with only 2 or so stoppages in 24000 rounds.

 

[Anikastha]

Nah, this time it will go faster, as for once the Army is already involved in preliminary trials on daily basis before the weapon is sent even for final field trials. the weapons' reliability is being put to test everyday it seems. The main final tests will b end of year and mostly in harsh winter conditions in siachen and other forward areas in the deserts tough marine conditions in the south, normally I think they will wrap up the testing in a couple of months. The army has realized the urgency, even if all trails passed, it would take another 6 months before mass production can hit full speed, realistically regular units can only expect the rifle delivered end of next year. Besides the Excalibur already has a reliability of 99% with only 2 or so stoppages in 24000 rounds.

Thats fine..I heard Indian Army doesn't have proper sniper rifle and training / firing range for snipers is true?

 

[ezsasa]

Nah, this time it will go faster, as for once the Army is already involved in preliminary trials on daily basis before the weapon is sent even for final field trials. the weapons' reliability is being put to test everyday it seems. The main final tests will b end of year and mostly in harsh winter conditions in siachen and other forward areas in the deserts tough marine conditions in the south, normally I think they will wrap up the testing in a couple of months. The army has realized the urgency, even if all trails passed, it would take another 6 months before mass production can hit full speed, realistically regular units can only expect the rifle delivered end of next year. Besides the Excalibur already has a reliability of 99% with only 2 or so stoppages in 24000 rounds.

We have to keep in mind that Indian army testing is atleast 1.5 year cycle, my observation has been that they try to test everything in all possible climatic conditions through out the year. I believe this sort of testing is good, on the condition that they own up to malfunctions if any at a later stage. Another half year to fix minor problems and submit report. I think we are looking at atleast 2.5 years before distribution starts. We have to factor in training and acclimatisation period to boots on the ground.

I don't think induction of a weapon can be done in short time frames.

 

[ghost]

There a further improvement ongoing for this one

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-indigenous-excalibur-115090300012_1.html

It seems is Army throwing its weight on it finally as it is supposed to. Awaiting the next version of Excalibur. I think it will have elements of the MCIWS. It seems Army shooters are at Ishapore, shooting with various prototypes daily Now, this is what I call pro-active productive development. One can be sure, the Exclibur will end up being a world class rifle.

Sir,

I don't think so,however there are few things which I think would improve its ergonomics.

1 It should have a full length picatinny rail with option of detachable rails on side and bottom of hand guard for laser,light ,fore grip and other accessories which a modern soldier might want to mount on his rifle if need arise. ,just like ak 12.

2 The pistol grip should be changed with mciws pistol grip,it would offer better grip due to its design.

3 It should lower the number of rivets.

4 Stock of mciws should be adopted as it is collapsible as well as folding whereas the present stock is just side folding.When a soldier is wearing body armour he need to adjust the length of the stock as per his comfort.

5 Magazine well should be provide just like kalantak,it would not only protect from dust but also come in handy for soldier to grip,it would also speed up reflex reloading.

6 Magazine should be of 30 rounds.

7 Better designed hand guard,the current one looks too fat to me.It should be something like above or better.

Brazilian imbel a2 is a good example for Excalibur to look up to.

 

[Shadow]

But if the Army accepts the Excalibur,what will happen with the MCIWS?

 

[ghost]

But if the Army accepts the Excalibur,what will happen with the MCIWS?

Sir,

Truth is, take all the media reports with a pinch of salt,they do not state everything nor are they 100% accurate.There is a reprot that army will be adopting excalibur, there is also talk that army has seen potential in mciws and is ready to fund its further development and then there are report that mciws trials will start from December. MCIWS is far better weapon in every sense,plus it will make more sense for Indian army to adopt as it can shift from 7.62 to 5.56mm with minimum changes and 91%common parts. Instead of purchasing different rifles adopting mciws will make more sense .


So, if mciws pass all the trials and is available to army in the right time, army would most probably go for it.All the paramilitary bsf,crpf,itbp and ssb have shown interest in mciws ,once it clears the trials they will be adopting it as their standard issue.If army select excalibur over mciws then they will be having inferior weapon to bsf and crpf.As per me excalibur should be developed and sold to various police force around the country which need a serious weapon overhaul and it should be promoted for export to other countries.

To sum it up, MCIWS is still a front runner and all talks of it being expensive are baseless .If it is cheap enough for paramilitary then I am sure army can also afford it.If you remember there was similar hype and buzz around trichy assault rifle but in the end forces preferred ghatak over it.So it not neccary that if a weapon system is being developed it will be adopted for sure,this hold true for both excalibur and mciws .You will have to wait before things get really clear.

 

[Hari Sud]

Thats fine..I heard Indian Army doesn't have proper sniper rifle and training / firing range for snipers is true?

Can you explain what is the meaning of "proper " sniper rifle. Do you mean the American made, (Barrett or MacMillon) very pricey rifles who distributes half the money as commissions. Yes, India has very good sniper rifles. To match heavy caliber, India uses Denel or local made Vidhwansak..

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra Sir, What was the draw back of fn-fals ? I have seen many police divisions from AP police with these guns..Brazil still uses Fn-fals.

It is an excellent sharp-shooter rifle and the round is very potent. The drawback is with weight. It is too heavy, and the Army preferred INSAS over the FN-FAL during the Kargil War.

FN-FAL comes in two variants. Semi-auto and fully-auto. For a rifle with 7.62x51 rounds, the fully-auto variant has been proven to be worse than the semi-auto variant.

As a regular infantry weapon of a conscripted force, AKM is better than the FN-FAL. As a regular infantry weapon of a volunteer force, FN-FAL is better than AKM. For COIN, AKM is better than FN-FAL. As a marksman's rifle, FN-FAL is better than AKM. As a suppression rifle, AKM is better than FN-FAL.

There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Thats fine..I heard Indian Army doesn't have proper sniper rifle and training / firing range for snipers is true?

The Indian Army uses Dragunov, and also FN-FALs with scopes improvised as sniper rifles.

5 Magazine well should be provide just like kalantak,it would not only protect from dust but also come in handy for soldier to grip,it would also speed up reflex reloading.

A grip should be a dedicated accessory, separate from the magazine. Especially if it is a plastic magazine, it might not be sturdy enough. Even with steel magazines, for example in FN-FAL, using the magazine as a grip risks the soldier having his index finger chopped off.

6 Magazine should be of 30 rounds.

A 30 round magazine is too long for prone position, and it was felt that a 20 round magazine is more ergonomic.

Can you explain what is the meaning of "proper " sniper rifle. Do you mean the American made, (Barrett or MacMillon) very pricey rifles who distributes half the money as commissions. Yes, India has very good sniper rifles. To match heavy caliber, India uses Denel or local made Vidhwansak..

Vidhwansak is used by the Border Security Force, and not by the Army.

 

[Anikastha]

Can you explain what is the meaning of "proper " sniper rifle. Do you mean the American made, (Barrett or MacMillon) very pricey rifles who distributes half the money as commissions. Yes, India has very good sniper rifles. To match heavy caliber, India uses Denel or local made Vidhwansak..

Yeah fine!! How is our draganov when compared to M82 Barret , Hk psg1,

 

[Anikastha]

@Hari Sud
Sir!! Don't take me wrong..but by going to facts IA is needs better equipment than current one..From last one year I am hearing F-INSAS..(more or less this is a dead project).IA troops don't have BP helmets .They have just a head wear( its not BP).In kashmir COIN video's many wore green colour jacket ..its bullet magzine holder( even this not a BP)
Let me get back to home..I will give you many reports.

Check this

 

[Hari Sud]

@Hari Sud
Sir!! Don't take me wrong..but by going to facts IA is needs better equipment than current one..From last one year I am hearing F-INSAS..(more or less this is a dead project).IA troops don't have BP helmets .They have just a head wear( its not BP).In kashmir COIN video's many wore green colour jacket ..its bullet magzine holder( even this not a BP)
Let me get back to home..I will give you many reports.
View attachment 5933
Check this

Your point well taken.

You buy what you can afford and counter your enemies.

Arms merchants turn out glossy brochure extolling virtues of their products. Unfortunately these do not work in Indian conditions. Multi calib Assault rifle testing is key example. Prior to that artillery gun was another example. Dissatisfied the arms merchant together with their Indian cronies mount a heavy media propaganda including in this forum to find faults in the current equipment. I hope you are not one of them.

Yes, all military hardware after its time is over has to be replaced or upgraded. You spend as much as you can afford. Right now it is about $40 billion in total. Much of it salaries and pensions, training and exercises, operation & maintenance . What is left is about $3 to 4 billion for capital upgrades. Still India in-spite of these limitations is importing $4 to 5 billion in arms, also procuring $3 to 4 billion in local purchases including ammunition. It is super human effort for a trillion dollar or slightly more economy with next to nothing in exports. Much of Indian money is given away to thankless people in India in subsidies and freebies. I would say $40 billion on defence is a good effort. Forget about Pakistani belligerence, they have nothing to face India except nuclear intimidation. Chinese are not interested in picking up a fight with India today. Chinese know that bulk of their effort is in South China Sea and Taiwan, for them Tibet is too far away to pick up a fight (local commanders some times become unruly). Last year's Chinese commander in Tibet had been transferred.

So relax, everything in glossy brochures is not the best, also you buy what you can afford.

 

[Chinmoy]

Yeah fine!! How is our draganov when compared to M82 Barret , Hk psg1,

dont get so excited pal. IA not only use Dragunov but do also use H&K PSG1 and Galil sniper rifles too. But the reason that they are spotted with Dragunov more often then others, may be because of its robustness. Its a known fact that its not a dedicated sniper rifle but a rifle adapted for sniping purpose.

Few days back I came across few comments, where IA's has been criticized for not using snipers against Paki's, when one of our soldier got sniped. Please be assured that we do have got very good snipers as well as training ground. But the thing is that what are the conditions our soldiers do face when ever they are on frontier. They are constantly on patrolling and in the process do expose themselves to enemy fire. But patrolling is somewhat they are forced to do because of the nature of warfare they are engaged in. Can we say the same for Paki's? I dont think they need to worry about intrusion by Jehadi elements and because of this they could be far more safe in their bunkers. Now you cant blame someone entirely of non sniping if the enemy remains 90% of the time indoor.

Now coming to rifle, purchasing a high maintenance rifle like M82 would not solve IA's problem. As per record Mumbai Police did acquired M107 after 26/11. But on how many occasion they are using it? What I mean is, merely purchasing such high end high maintenance rifle and not getting proper chance to use it to potential is not at all that logical. Dragunov in itself is not a bad rifle. Its a robust all terrain all weather rifle and more reliable then Barrett in firing. But yeah, it does lack in its accuracy and range, but again at a range of 1000 + metre you have to fire a couple of rounds to hit the target even with a Cheytac intervention system. Its not the rifle which counts, but the person firing it and the conditions in which the bullet had taken flight.

But I do want the best for our army and as the news go, they have already floated RFI for sniper rifles. If i had to put my money on any particular model, then I'd go for Accuracy International AWM .

 

[Anikastha]

dont get so excited pal. IA not only use Dragunov but do also use H&K PSG1 and Galil sniper rifles too. But the reason that they are spotted with Dragunov more often then others, may be because of its robustness. Its a known fact that its not a dedicated sniper rifle but a rifle adapted for sniping purpose.

Few days back I came across few comments, where IA's has been criticized for not using snipers against Paki's, when one of our soldier got sniped. Please be assured that we do have got very good snipers as well as training ground. But the thing is that what are the conditions our soldiers do face when ever they are on frontier. They are constantly on patrolling and in the process do expose themselves to enemy fire. But patrolling is somewhat they are forced to do because of the nature of warfare they are engaged in. Can we say the same for Paki's? I dont think they need to worry about intrusion by Jehadi elements and because of this they could be far more safe in their bunkers. Now you cant blame someone entirely of non sniping if the enemy remains 90% of the time indoor.

Now coming to rifle, purchasing a high maintenance rifle like M82 would not solve IA's problem. As per record Mumbai Police did acquired M107 after 26/11. But on how many occasion they are using it? What I mean is, merely purchasing such high end high maintenance rifle and not getting proper chance to use it to potential is not at all that logical. Dragunov in itself is not a bad rifle. Its a robust all terrain all weather rifle and more reliable then Barrett in firing. But yeah, it does lack in its accuracy and range, but again at a range of 1000 + metre you have to fire a couple of rounds to hit the target even with a Cheytac intervention system. Its not the rifle which counts, but the person firing it and the conditions in which the bullet had taken flight.

But I do want the best for our army and as the news go, they have already floated RFI for sniper rifles. If i had to put my money on any particular model, then I'd go for Accuracy International AWM .

Do rifles need maintenance like maintenance for aircraft/ ships/vehicle..?
Heard it just needs cleaning (barrel).
I am most worried about Army fellows because they take extreme risk.
Can anyone tell " Is siachen glacier opened for civilians"? plz don't laugh...I want to visit that place

 

[Blood+]

@Hari Sud
Let me get back to home..I will give you many reports.
View attachment 5933
Check this

Do you even know what helmet that is - it's the only helmet currently in service anywhere in the whole fuccking world,that can stop rifle rounds fired from 10 meter distance!!Read a few things before opening your bloody mouth,sonny.


MOD EDIT: Do not make personal attacks. Stick to facts.

 

[Blood+]

The Indian Army uses Dragunov, and also FN-FALs with scopes improvised as sniper rifles.

Wrong.Those you mentioned are used by the Squad Designated Marksmen.The snipers on the other hand are mostly equipped with H&K PSG1 and Mauser SP66 sniper rifles,and the Paras use Galils.

A 30 round magazine is too long for prone position, and it was felt that a 20 round magazine is more ergonomic.

Well,that was the thinking of the Indian Army top brass,shows how big dumb and ignorant sons of biitches those guys were.The 5.56 mm 30 round box magazines are in no way as long as to create any hindrance during firing from prone position.

Vidhwansak is used by the Border Security Force, and not by the Army.

Again not true.Vidwansak is definitely used by the Ghataks and regular Infantry units.

 

[Anikastha]

I've gotta admit,that you are about the biggest ignorant dumb-ass fool I've ever seen!!Do you even know what helmet that is - it's the only helmet currently in service anywhere in the whole fuccking world,that can stop rifle rounds fired from 10 meter distance!!Read a few things before opening your bloody mouth,sonny.

I am not a military expert...i dont have much knowledge about defence equipment..so I came here..plz reply me If u can speak in proper manner...I have asked many questions to senior members , no one spoke in this way.
That helmet can't save soldier from sniper attacks...In India ambushes on security forces are common.What makes you believe that militants in kashmir won't get their hand on sniper rifle ( in future)?

 

[Hari Sud]

Ban this guy from the forum. Otherwise indiscipline will continue to spread. This type of language cannot be encouraged.

I've gotta admit,that you are about the biggest ignorant dumb-ass fool I've ever seen!!Do you even know what helmet that is - it's the only helmet currently in service anywhere in the whole fuccking world,that can stop rifle rounds fired from 10 meter distance!!Read a few things before opening your bloody mouth,sonny.

 

[pmaitra]

Wrong.Those you mentioned are used by the Squad Designated Marksmen.The snipers on the other hand are mostly equipped with H&K PSG1 and Mauser SP66 sniper rifles,and the Paras use Galils.

Please see what I was responding to. Does IA have a proper sniper rifle? The answer is yes. Dragunov is a proper sniper rifle, and that was given as an example.

A man equipped with a Dragunov can be called whatever, DM, or Sniper, but the Dragunov is a sniper rifle. SVD stands for Snayperskaya Vintovka sistem'y Dragunova obraz'tsa 1963 goda (Снайперская Винтовка системы Драгунова образца 1963 года). So, please correct your facts.

Regarding calibre, here is the order:
Mauser (8x57 mm)
Dragunov (7.62x54 mm)
Heckler & Koch PSG1 & FN-FAL (7.62x51 mm)

dont get so excited pal. IA not only use Dragunov but do also use H&K PSG1 and Galil sniper rifles too. But the reason that they are spotted with Dragunov more often then others, may be because of its robustness. Its a known fact that its not a dedicated sniper rifle but a rifle adapted for sniping purpose.

+1

Well,that was the thinking of the Indian Army top brass,shows how big dumb and ignorant sons of biitches those guys were.The 5.56 mm 30 round box magazines are in no way as long as to create any hindrance during firing from prone position.

20 round magazine is more ergonomic than 30 round magazine in prone position. It is common sense. To think otherwise is dumb. Every inch added to the magazine is one inch added to the height of the shooter's head, and thus, a larger target for the enemy. Sure, a 30 round magazine has its benefits that it requires less frequent magazine changes, but that in no way invalidates the ergonomic advantages of a 20 round magazine.

Also, don't forget, a lot of things in the INSAS were designed to minimize transition efforts from FN-FAL to INSAS, such as the stock, carrying handle, charging lever, and magazine size.

Again not true.Vidwansak is definitely used by the Ghataks and regular Infantry units.

IA rejected Vidwansak for being heavier than IA requirements.