INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[sayareakd]

I do not think that soldiers would be issued with just 100 rounds during times of emergency.It defeats the very purpose of shifting to 5.56 NATO from earlier 7.62 M80!!And besides,with the introduction of the newer load carrying tactical vests with webbing and 5-6 large ammo pouches lugged on them,I do not think soldiers are issued with a measly 100 rounds anymore.And if I recall correct,there had been instances during Kargil,where soldiers were carrying over 20 kg of ammo on them!!So I do not think that this 100 figure of yours holds any water.

this 100 ammo is from kargil war.

 

[Blood+]

this 100 ammo is from kargil war.

Pure bullshit!!
.................................

 

[Blood+]

If what saya is saying is true then it should be enough for COIN ops although I remember it to be 1+3 mags (AKM).

But in case of a conventional war or conflict, this is definitely not true.

In case of Kargil, it wasn't 20 kgs of ammo but 20 or 24 kgs of everything.

Yes,that might be the case.But still,the weight of ammo would have definitely been much higher than usual because if I remember correct,the soldiers preferred to carry extra ammo in place of carrying food packs.,because resupplying over such difficult terrain was extremely hard or even impossible at times.So this argument that soldiers had been carrying just 100 rounds on them during Kargil is simply ludicrous to even put it gently.
And besides,back in those days,other than their climbing equipment,there were very few other equipment that were used to be issued to the regular infantry,so the weight of the equipment was not really much significant.

 

[sayareakd]

Pure bullshit!!
.................................

Captain Ajit Singh of the 16 Grenadiers who was part of the initial assault. "And you have to choose between your ration and ammunition." A 2-kg food pack or 100 bullets. Ajit, like many of his colleagues, chose bullets. For three days, he says, he survived on cigarettes.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...hanged-the-course-of-kargil-war/1/255895.html

 

[sayareakd]

Ok how many bullets you want soldiers to carry?

 

[Blood+]

Self delete.
....................................

 

[Blood+]

Captain Ajit Singh of the 16 Grenadiers who was part of the initial assault. "And you have to choose between your ration and ammunition." A 2-kg food pack or 100 bullets. Ajit, like many of his colleagues, chose bullets. For three days, he says, he survived on cigarettes.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...hanged-the-course-of-kargil-war/1/255895.html

Damn it man,did you even read that piece before posting??!!Well,obviously you did read it,but most certainly you failed to comprehend it,with completely missing the woods for the trees!!
By that statement,the good captain didn't ever mean to say that soldiers were issued with just a hundred pieces of ammo,NO,NOT AT ALL!!What he really meant was that,the soldiers decided to carry 100 extra ammo (the actual number might have been 120-130 if they were equipped with the INSAS rifles),in place of the 2 kg MRE packs,OVER AND ABOVE THEIR USUAL LOADS,since the terrain would have made it virtually impossible to resupply them,once they had made contact with the Pakis,sitting atop the hills.
And dude,no one ever sets out with a mere 100 rounds,even during LRPs,let alone during a full blown out conflict,and that too,so far and so high from their nearest resupply bases!!And even from a doctrinal pov,your statement doesn't make an iota of sense!!You know why - Because the whole idea behind shifting to such light weight ammo was to enable individual soldiers to carry around more ammo than it was possible with earlier standard issue M80 rounds!!So if the Army is to issue a mere 100 rounds per man,then it defeats the very purpose of shifting towards the 5.56!!If that was indeed the case,then they might as well never have shifted towards 5.56 in the first place.
And lastly,if indeed your statement is true,that soldiers were and still are being issued with a measly 100 rounds of 5.56 ammo,then I'm sorry to say this but the Army top brass (and the supporters of this 'idea' as well if I may add) has been doing a criminal injustice to our grunts of worst possible kind,even worse than keeping them deprived of live saving and protective equipment like body armors and quick clots - because you are taking away their only mean to fight against their enemy!!

 

[Blood+]

Ok how many bullets you want soldiers to carry?

There is no clear cut answer to your quarry.It should be depending upon a multitude of factors involved like the duration of their mission,number of enemy combatants they are expected to come in contact contact to,distance from nearest supply bases so on and so forth.But you might wanna check out the standard load out during various types of missions of the US Army and Marines.Now why I'm taking them as the benchmark here is because they too,not unlike Indian Army,train for marksmanship with a very similar notion of your favorite catchphrase,'ek goli ek dushman',which you seem so obsessed with,that apparently you have come to the conclusion that a soldier can score hits with their every single shots and hence they need not carry more than just a measly hundred rounds on them!!

 

[sayareakd]

There is no clear cut answer to your quarry.It should be depending upon a multitude of factors involved like the duration of their mission,number of enemy combatants they are expected to come in contact contact to,distance from nearest supply bases so on and so forth.But you might wanna check out the standard load out during various types of missions of the US Army and Marines.Now why I'm taking them as the benchmark here is because they too,not unlike Indian Army,train for marksmanship with a very similar notion of your favorite catchphrase,'ek goli ek dushman',which you seem so obsessed with,that apparently you have come to the conclusion that a soldier can score hits with their every single shots and hence they need not carry more than just a measly hundred rounds on them!!

Well i am asking for normal soldier of Indian Army. If you dont know, for defence of location you need multiple of 8 soldiers. If you add 1 bullet one soldier rule, plus for 3 bust shoot, 24 bullets is the requirement. Therefore 100 bullets per soldier is good, till he require additional ammo and other supplies. Thus 100 ammo is good enough numbers for the soldier to carry.

Again you said it was "Pure bullshit!"

Damn it man,did you even read that piece before posting??!!Well,obviously you did read it,but most certainly you failed to comprehend it,with completely missing the woods for the trees!!
By that statement,the good captain didn't ever mean to say that soldiers were issued with just a hundred pieces of ammo,NO,NOT AT ALL!!What he really meant was that,the soldiers decided to carry 100 extra ammo (the actual number might have been 120-130 if they were equipped with the INSAS rifles),in place of the 2 kg MRE packs,OVER AND ABOVE THEIR USUAL LOADS,since the terrain would have made it virtually impossible to resupply them,once they had made contact with the Pakis,sitting atop the hills.
And dude,no one ever sets out with a mere 100 rounds,even during LRPs,let alone during a full blown out conflict,and that too,so far and so high from their nearest resupply bases!!And even from a doctrinal pov,your statement doesn't make an iota of sense!!You know why - Because the whole idea behind shifting to such light weight ammo was to enable individual soldiers to carry around more ammo than it was possible with earlier standard issue M80 rounds!!So if the Army is to issue a mere 100 rounds per man,then it defeats the very purpose of shifting towards the 5.56!!If that was indeed the case,then they might as well never have shifted towards 5.56 in the first place.
And lastly,if indeed your statement is true,that soldiers were and still are being issued with a measly 100 rounds of 5.56 ammo,then I'm sorry to say this but the Army top brass (and the supporters of this 'idea' as well if I may add) has been doing a criminal injustice to our grunts of worst possible kind,even worse than keeping them deprived of live saving and protective equipment like body armors and quick clots - because you are taking away their only mean to fight against their enemy!!

that report was just one of the many i read at the time of Kargil war. What i posted was one such report.

It was covered in national daily. What you read was IT story. That does not mean he said additional 100 bullets.

Again you have not given exact numbers for the normal soldier to carry.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Here we are talking abt barrels, As the AR`s barrel are lighter and thinner they tend to get hot quickly while firing, Continues firing without break is not recommended in any AR`s and Certainly not SMGs, The problem arise when barrel get cheery red and can be observed in day light, That means its abt time to stop firing ..

Its 1B1, INSAS is name of family of Indian design small arms, About P-90 its a nice design but 1B1`s design is around AKM for reliability reasons and adopting an H&K design will take years, As of now Army is more towards 30rnd magazine as Ex-calibers coming in fresh are with 30rnd magazines ..

================

@pmaitra, Thanks but i am still away for fireworks near sea ..

Sir, is this true for INSAS only or is it true for modern assault rifles like the French FAMAS as well?
Do SMGs like Vector face a similar problem?

Maybe a magazine that is flush with the length of the length of the rifle, like the one found on P-90s, can be employed to counter the problem.

@Kunal Biswas, welcome back. I am eagerly waiting for your pictures of INSAS LMG.

 

[tharun]

Depends upon the 7.62. If you are talking 7.62 Jihadi aka 7.62x39mm, 6.5 picks up an easy win. If you are talking 7.62 NATO i.e 7.62x51mm i.e .308 Win, 7.62 wins purely on energy retained.

Comparison of calibers..............

 

[The enlightened]

Comparison of calibers..............

To the earlier question, changing to a new caliber will be an extremely long drawn and expensive process. Entire ammo stocks will have to be replaced. 6.8 SPC was developed specifically as a M193 replacement but even the Americans haven't converted or showed any intent to do so.

 

[Austinjimson]

Here we are talking abt barrels, As the AR`s barrel are lighter and thinner they tend to get hot quickly while firing, Continues firing without break is not recommended in any AR`s and Certainly not SMGs, The problem arise when barrel get cheery red and can be observed in day light, That means its abt time to stop firing ..

Its 1B1, INSAS is name of family of Indian design small arms, About P-90 its a nice design but 1B1`s design is around AKM for reliability reasons and adopting an H&K design will take years, As of now Army is more towards 30rnd magazine as Ex-calibers coming in fresh are with 30rnd magazines ..

================

@pmaitra, Thanks but i am still away for fireworks near sea ..

Is it possible for drdo to produce airsoft versions of insas for civilians which will give them enthusiasms in military . There are airsoft version of qbz-95,m-16,ak series in US markets.

Sent from my GT-I8730 using Tapatalk

 

[Blood+]

Is it possible for drdo to produce airsoft versions of insas for civilians which will give them enthusiasms in military . There are airsoft version of qbz-95,m-16,ak series in US markets.

Sent from my GT-I8730 using Tapatalk

Why DRDO??Let the 'industry' come up with something on their own,for once at least!!

 

[halloweene]

M855 A1 (afaik) is closing in joules 7.61/39.
said that, said nothing...

 

[ghost]

Improved insas /Excalibur rifle

 

[ghost]

"The INSAS was more or less rejected by the Indian Army, unfortunately it was forced down the Armys throat. I have been one of the trial officers in the chain. It was a cut paste job of mating different outdated technologies. The body of the weapon system was stamped fitting instead of moulded body. This was pointed out then by me. All the faults in the weapon which surfaced during the Kargil Operations were pointed out by our trial team, including the slipping of the selector which led to discharge of the weapon in full automatic. The weapon was rejected by my trial team inspite of a lot of pressure from AHQ. We in the Airborne Forces/Special Forces continued with the AK-47/M-58 series of weapons, while the rest of the Army had to lump it with the INSAS. It took DRDO more than 20 years to produce this shabby weapon. Hence the reluctance of the Army today to rely on DRDO. When we were purchasing weapons from abroad we should have gone in for joint production in India – this would have given us some platform for the future development of indigenous systems. We are unable to produce sighting system. Our Dheradun unit does not have the equipment to etch the bars in the sight to the required microns. We should go in for import or joint licenced manufacture of the sighting system in India. Well hope this time around the efforts of the DRDO bear fruit in the real sense. "
Col JP Singhhttp://www.indiandefencereview.com/...sault-rifle-make-in-india-vs-made-in-india/0/

Hope history does not repeat itself ,and whatever weapon Army adopt should be based on merit and not because some politician and AHQ shove it down army throat.

 

[Shaitan]

The top scientist looking after the development of the Small Arms informed us that the MCIWS Assault Rifle will be ready for trials by December 2015 – January 2016 for trials. Beaming with confidence they boasted of the mastery achieved over the metallurgy that will produce the world’s one of the finest weapons

in its class. The body of the MCIWS under development is made up of a single block of very high grade aluminium alloy. The rivet-less body makes the weapon more resilient to combat stress. The modular design makes the weapon unique and extremely soldier friendly. A soldier will be able to field strip MCIWS without any tool by just removing a pin.

The deadly looking weapon likely to become the basic weapon of an Infantryman has a multi calibre option between 5.56 x 45 mm, 6.8 x 43 mm and 7.62 x 39 mm. It is capable of firing different calibre ammunition by changing barrel group, breech block and the magazine while retaining 92 per cent of commonality of parts. This affords the Army a choice between going in for a multi-calibre or a single calibre weapon as the case may be.

It is lightweight and modular in design having multiple picatinny rails for sighting system and foregrip. The already under production, indigenous 40 mm Under Barrel Grenade Launcher fitted with MCIWS makes it a very lethal combination. The air bursting grenade having a range of 500 m could work havoc on the enemy defiladed behind at those ranges.

The MCIWS is a highly impressive weapon system. On July 13, 2015, a composite team comprising Director General of Para Military and representatives of various forces under the Additional Home Secretary visited ARDE. This weapon had impressed the visiting team and they are now willing to induct MCIWS for use by the BSF, CRPF, ITBP, CISF and the SSB as soon as possible. The strength of Indian paramilitary forces outnumber that of the Indian Army. This move could boost the sagging morale of the scientists whose tremendous efforts have constantly been overlooked thus far. And also, the MCIWS will give a huge impetus to those fighting the Naxal insurgency and may well prove to be a game changer.

Another ARDE official, meanwhile, informed that apart from MCIWS Assault Rifle, other weapons and weapons system are also being worked on including a Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC).The user trials of which were recently conducted involved the German MP-7 and Belgium P-90, our JVPC fared better than the other two. Commenting upon the irrationality overshadowing the logic during trials, he cited the unnecessary non-critical tests responsible for delayed induction. He informed us that as that as per the GSQR laid down, this carbine was required to pass through 99.7 per cent reliability test. All the weapons (JVPC) tested were proved above 99 per cent reliable. However, six out of the lot were above 99.5 per cent thus largely bracketing them between 99.4 to 99.5 per cent reliable. All necessary changes are being incorporated to pass through the stringency of the tests. He said 50 JVPC will be provided to the Army for fresh trials in January 2016.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/...sault-rifle-make-in-india-vs-made-in-india/0/

 

[pmaitra]

"The INSAS was more or less rejected by the Indian Army, unfortunately it was forced down the Armys throat. I have been one of the trial officers in the chain. It was a cut paste job of mating different outdated technologies. The body of the weapon system was stamped fitting instead of moulded body. This was pointed out then by me. All the faults in the weapon which surfaced during the Kargil Operations were pointed out by our trial team, including the slipping of the selector which led to discharge of the weapon in full automatic. The weapon was rejected by my trial team inspite of a lot of pressure from AHQ. We in the Airborne Forces/Special Forces continued with the AK-47/M-58 series of weapons, while the rest of the Army had to lump it with the INSAS. It took DRDO more than 20 years to produce this shabby weapon. Hence the reluctance of the Army today to rely on DRDO. When we were purchasing weapons from abroad we should have gone in for joint production in India – this would have given us some platform for the future development of indigenous systems. We are unable to produce sighting system. Our Dheradun unit does not have the equipment to etch the bars in the sight to the required microns. We should go in for import or joint licenced manufacture of the sighting system in India. Well hope this time around the efforts of the DRDO bear fruit in the real sense. "
Col JP Singhhttp://www.indiandefencereview.com/...sault-rifle-make-in-india-vs-made-in-india/0/

Hope history does not repeat itself ,and whatever weapon Army adopt should be based on merit and not because some politician and AHQ shove it down army throat.

Colonel JP Singh says a lot of things.

The body of the weapon system was stamped fitting instead of moulded body. This was pointed out then by me.
Many knew that INSAS is made of stamped metal parts, like the AKM. This colonel found out in 1999 something many had known since 1984.

We in the Airborne Forces/Special Forces continued with the AK-47/M-58 series of weapons, while the rest of the Army had to lump it with the INSAS.
Airborne forces are not regular infantry. He should speak for airborne forces, not the regular infantry. Did he take a stand during Kargil War that the regular infantry should carry their FN-FAL clones into those heights?

It took DRDO more than 20 years to produce this shabby weapon.
INSAS prototype was ready in 1984, but the army dragged its feet, and when Kargil happened, the whimsical army demanded INSAS rifles be produced in overwhelming numbers to replace the FN-FALs, because the army preferred the lighter INSAS over the FN-FAL in those heights. People at RFI worked overtime to meet the demands from the army, given that production at Kanpur and Trichy hadn't started yet. I am sorry to say, this colonel's words are just his opinion.

When we were purchasing weapons from abroad we should have gone in for joint production in India – this would have given us some platform for the future development of indigenous systems.
That's the point - some kind of foreign deal.

 

[Immanuel]

Improved insas /Excalibur rifle

There a further improvement ongoing for this one

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-indigenous-excalibur-115090300012_1.html

It seems is Army throwing its weight on it finally as it is supposed to. Awaiting the next version of Excalibur. I think it will have elements of the MCIWS. It seems Army shooters are at Ishapore, shooting with various prototypes daily Now, this is what I call pro-active productive development. One can be sure, the Exclibur will end up being a world class rifle.