INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Bhadra]

There is nothing in the above post #1160, which is new. It is old story amplified to make it new. This reporter in Rediff picked on everything which is known for the last ten years to foul mouth a working rifle in the Indian Army.

Now the above reporter together with arms merchants have started to foul mouth Army's GSQR requirements. If the foreign arms suppliers were so smart then why did they participate in the tender. They willingly brought their prototypes which were ten years away from full development to get it tested under Indian conditions they failed. Now they are concentrating on saying bad GSQR requirements.

Somebody has to prove that Excalibur rifle is that bad as many arms merchant who failed the tests, have begun to say. Outside fit and finish looks are deceptive. That should not be the criteria to accept and reject the local product. It is the critical aspect of reliability, range and lethality etc. which are more important. The sexy looking with great fit and finish have failed the tests.

In my opinion stop this stupid propaganda against INSAS rifle. A few jams and oil spray aside, this rifle withstood the Kargil war, also day after day LOC firings and daily firing practices at all Army training schools for new recruits and war games. Believe me most rifles fail under one or the other circumstances. M-16 and AK-47 are no exception to jams, hence Indian made INSAS should not be singled out.

You guys can neither make a rudimentary rifle nor are good to make simple non abusive and non accusatory comment ...

Leave it at that ... do worry about me wherever I am ....

 

[pmaitra]

@Bhadra, answer my questions instead of beating around the bush.

1. What is barrel bulging?
2. What are the reasons it happens?
3. What are the remedies?

"Everybody knows . . ." is not the correct answer. I don't know. You inform me.

This post is for Bhadra alone.

 

[pmaitra]

Punjab cops turn Ghatak, set to dump WW-II guns

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...t-to-dump-WW-II-guns/articleshow/48091293.cms

As part of its modernization drive, the Punjab police are now set to dismantle more than 6,000 old weapons as their spare parts are no longer available or the weapon itself is no longer manufactured. These arms include 668 sten guns and 2,910 .38 bore revolvers, both of which are close-quarter combat (CQB) weapons.

Besides, 2,000 musket rifles that were used in revolts in India including 1857 will also be retired. These rifles are known for their signature style of single shot firing and would load only one muzzle, known as barood, at a time. These had obviously not been used for years.


The state police have now sent a proposal to the Union home ministry to acquire assault rifles Ghatak and Excalibur, both of which were recently designed by Defence Research Development Organisation at Pune. Punjab will become the first state in the country to acquire these weapons that were displayed for the first time in May this year at Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) in Kolkata.

While Ghatak, with a 7.62mm size of ammunition, is an advanced version of an AK-47 rifle, the Excalibur is an improved version of the common INSAS rifle and fires 5.56mm ammunition.

"I had personally gone to Ishapore to train in the new weaponry. They will be a cheaper alternative to the Russian AK-47s and AK-56s. This will help us save on import costs," said Rakesh Chandra, Punjab police inspector general (commando), Bahadurgarh, which houses reserve ammunition.

What is a musket rifle? Muskets are usually smoothbores. Are there musket rifles? Can anyone share a picture?

 

[Bhadra]

Everyone knows it, but you don't know it. That is why you have to write a post without contributing any information.



I can also say, if you have never fired a rifle, do not comment.

Ok, I'll give you a second chance. Try answering my question.

This IDRW article should explain what it means by "bulging barrels."

Everyone knows it - yes - when something passes through a hole - the hole may bulge - that is swell.
But you do not seem to know - that is you made that all knowledgeable sarcastic comment !

and now you are trying to teach me .....

 

[pmaitra]

Everyone knows it - yes - when something passes through a hole - the hole may bulge - that is swell.
But you do not seem to know - that is you made that all knowledgeable sarcastic comment !

and now you are trying to teach me .....

Wrong answer.

Try once again, and I repeat.

@Bhadra, answer my questions instead of beating around the bush.

1. What is barrel bulging?
2. What are the reasons it happens?
3. What are the remedies?

"Everybody knows . . ." is not the correct answer. I don't know. You inform me.

This post is for Bhadra alone.

 

[Hari Sud]

Everyone knows it - yes - when something passes through a hole - the hole may bulge - that is swell.
But you do not seem to know - that is you made that all knowledgeable sarcastic comment !

and now you are trying to teach me .....

This post says clearly states that Bhadra does not know it. He is beating about the bush.

 

[bennedose]

Everyone knows it - yes - when something passes through a hole - the hole may bulge - that is swell.

I think you are talking about a different type of hole that needs to swell when some "thing" goes in it. The swelling or non swelling of holes is more often a discussion in gynaecology - so OT here. Strictly speaking a 2 dimensional entity like a hole can "dilate" not swell. A 3 D object can swell.

Barrels are not holes and are not supposed to "swell" when bullets pass through.The last I heard was that when the IA was testing Beretta rifles one of them showed barrel swelling. That is a dangerous manufacturing defect but could be a one-off.

 

[pmaitra]

I think you are talking about a different type of hole that needs to swell when some "thing" goes in it. The swelling or non swelling of holes is more often a discussion in gynaecology - so OT here. Strictly speaking a 2 dimensional entity like a hole can "dilate" not swell. A 3 D object can swell.

Barrels are not holes and are not supposed to "swell" when bullets pass through.The last I heard was that when the IA was testing Beretta rifles one of them showed barrel swelling. That is a dangerous manufacturing defect but could be a one-off.

@bennedose, I agree with you that this is most likely a one off.

Engineers who design stuff use their own terms. Users use slang.

Manufacturing defect is a possibility, but not the only possibility. If a barrel is not cleaned properly, or if low quality ammo is used, these things can occur. Rifles that are meant to be accurate, have low tolerances. Rifles that have low tolerances are more susceptible, and hence, require meticulous maintenance.

I raised my question because the IDRW article is written in such a way to create an impression that it is a manufacturing defect. It is possible it was a manufacturing defect, but it is also possible that IA troops were using inappropriate lubricants during Kargil War. We shall never know.

All I can say is that it is not the job of OFB to clean the rifle barrels.

 

[cobra commando]

Border Security Force personnel patrol near the unfenced India Bangladesh border at Durgapur.

 

[lachit borphookon]

Border Security Force personnel patrol near the unfenced India Bangladesh border at Durgapur.

Border Security Force personnel patrol near the unfenced India Bangladesh border at Durgapur.

Bsf should change their uniforms ASAP the camo pattern is terrible I wonder if it will provide any concealment

 

[SafedSagar]

PIL dubs INSAS ‘defective’, govt defends gun
Abhinav Garg,TNN | Aug 6, 2015, 12.51 AM

The petitioner said AK-47 rifles are effective and cheaper too.

NEW DELHI: Loss of lives in an operation by armed forces cannot be attributed to a particular weapon system, the Centre has told the Delhi High Court, defending its INSAS rifle system.

Even as the defense ministry assured the court it carries out periodic up gradation of INSAS rifles and wants to provide latest and modern weapons to its armed forces, it maintained that the rifle has its uses.

"The development of a weapon system is an ongoing process and depending upon technological development, requirement of armed forces and feedback upon harnessing existing weapon system, it undergoes various upgradations and modifications as is the case with INSAS rifles. To meet complex challenges of a particular theatre a mix of weapon system is deployed. Moreover, success of an operation depends upon various factors and variables relevant to particular theatre.

Attributing loss of lives in an operation to a particular weapon system doesn't appear to be a proper conclusion," the ministry has said in a reply filed in HC.

Centre's response came on court instructions in a PIL accusing the government of laxity in phasing out Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) rifles despite being aware of defects in the weaponry, leading to avoidable deaths of soldiers and paramilitary troopers. Filed by a retired Army officer, the PIL claimed AK - 47 rifles are an effective and a cheaper alternative but the government has continued with INSAS rifles.

In its reply the Centre has also clarified that none of the Court of Inquiries conducted in the aftermath of naxal strikes in Chattisgarh blamed INSAS rifles for death of soldiers.

It further faults the PIL for comparing "two separate classes of weapons" and notes how INSAS and Ak-47 rifles use different size of ammunition and varying range. "Both the weapons are effective in different riles because of their different features. Forces always use a combination of different weapons to meet requirement. These include pistols, sub machine guns, assault rifles, mortars grenade launchers etc. Therefore a particular weapon may be considered superior to any other weapon on certain counts and hence more suitable for deployment in particular theatre. Any such comparison by no means should be construed that other weapon is inferior and not good enough to be kept in service."

Narrating the history of INSAS, the defense ministry informs HC it was inducted in 1992 after extensive user trials and since then has undergone three cycles of up gradation. "Isolated cases of jamming/stoppages after sustained firing is unavoidable in any weapon system, while issue of cracking of magazines has been resolved and current ones are of satisfactory standard," it adds. On the petitioner's charge that only poor soldiers on the front are saddled with INSAS while those in VIP guard detail abjure it, the defence ministry has pointed out that Elite forces like NSG don't use INSAS because their requirement is different from that of Army. They use AK series, Heckler & Koch and other weaponse of assault category as their usage is short distances."
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ive-govt-defends-gun/articleshow/48367194.cms
...............................................................................................................................................

Here we go again......

 

[pmaitra]

Excellent retort. Looks like the international arms lobby is pulling all stops to peddle their arms after foreign weapons proved inferior in user trials. One single former Army Officer filing a PIL is not the opinion of the Army as a whole.

 

[cobra commando]

INSAS LMG

CRPF COBRA Commando with INSAS LMG

 

[Hari Sud]

Can somebody educate us on INSAS LMG. Who carries it in the battlefield and what is its history of operation.

Pay no attention to arms merchants foul mouthing the INSAS rifle. The retired army officers who foul mouth it have been employed by the arms merchants to create a sense of doubt in the minds of men who carry this rifle.

 

[pmaitra]

INSAS AR and INSAS LMG in use by various Home Ministry, Defence Ministry, and Railway Ministry forces:

 

[ersakthivel]

Wrong answer.

Try once again, and I repeat.

@Bhadra, answer my questions instead of beating around the bush.

1. What is barrel bulging?
2. What are the reasons it happens?
3. What are the remedies?

"Everybody knows . . ." is not the correct answer. I don't know. You inform me.

This post is for Bhadra alone.

Most of defence reporters in india are paid agents of MNC arms merchants , with little regard to truth, rajat pandit, manu pubby,rahul bedi the list is endless,,,,

 

[pmaitra]

Most of defence reporters in india are paid agents of MNC arms merchants , with little regard to truth, rajat pandit, manu pubby,rahul bedi the list is endless,,,,

I get the same impression as well. Of course, there is that one person, I forgot his name, who is the India correspondent of Jane's. Is that Rahul Bedi?

 

[Chinmoy]

For the sake of the PIL and Indian media, lets just compare INSAS with say......... M-4 carbine, standard issue rifle for US army (hope our media don't have any issue with it). Both shoots 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges. INSAS weights at 4.15kg sans magazine whereas M-4 weighs at 2.88kg. M-4 muzzle velocity is @ 880m/s whereas INSAS is @ 900m/s. Effective range of both the rifles comes at around 500m. Now apart from weight, I don't see any other down term for INSAS.
Now lets see the problems in INSAS. It does jams repeatedly in extreme cold due to crack in the poly carbonate magazines and in desert due to sand infusion in the receiver.
Now lets see the problems in M-4 or better follow the link
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/

Now, I am not saying that we shouldn't be looking for better options. IA does deserves the best, but we would also have to take in account the environmental conditions in which our rifles operate. The standard issue rifle has to operate from SIACHIN to THAR. So how could you expect a rifle to work in such extreme climate without having a snag or two and without proper maintenance.
I do think that the snags are to be rectified by proper brainstorming instead of filing a PIL or writing media reports and looking for foreign replacements. As far as maintenance is concerned, I am sure that IA is not suffering from the general mindset of our population. If we do purchase a AUDI we would use the best of lubricants in it and distilled water, but in case of a MARUTI, any lubricant or water from any source would do :biggrin2:.

Jokes apart, all I want to say is that, if INSAS is not the best in world, its also not the worst, as our media and some does portrays it to be. And I do believe that the next EXCALIBUR would be at par with BNARETTA's, COLT's et.al.

 

[pmaitra]

Now lets see the problems in INSAS. It does jams repeatedly in extreme cold due to crack in the poly carbonate magazines and in desert due to sand infusion in the receiver.

• The INSAS does not jam in extreme cold weather. It used to jam in extreme cold weather, and this is true for those built in and around 1999.
• The polycarbonate magazine does not crack. It used to crack, and this is true for those built around 1999.

Both these problems were true, and have been fixed, a little less than a decade ago.

Now, the rifles did not jam due to the polycarbonate magazines cracking. The rifles jamming and polycarbonate magazines cracking were two problems, and one is not related to the other.

Sand infusion is going to jam any high precision rifle, because the tolerances are low.

 

[Chinmoy]

• The INSAS does not jam in extreme cold weather. It used to jam in extreme cold weather, and this is true for those built in and around 1999.
• The polycarbonate magazine does not crack. It used to crack, and this is true for those built around 1999.

Both these problems were true, and have been fixed, a little less than a decade ago.

Now, the rifles did not jam due to the polycarbonate magazines cracking. The rifles jamming and polycarbonate magazines cracking were two problems, and one is not related to the other.

Sand infusion is going to jam any high precision rifle, because the tolerances are low.

That's right. That's what make it, as per my thinking a competitive assault rifle. So I think on field its not that a bad rifle as it seems to be on paper (media). Moreover the real constraint of weight is been addressed in Excalibur. So if we need an AR to defend our borders, I think we need to bank on our indigenous models and try to optimize it as per our requirement and environment. But yeah, if we are planning to raid on someone, then ..............

Moreover could anyone update on the MCIWS?