INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[ALBY]

Though the velocity of 7.62x39 is low it is heavy and punching power is high,which increases recoil and upward muzle climb comparedd with any 5.56x45/39 weapons.
AK Muzzle Device Test Part 1: Recoil Reduction - The Truth About Guns

Concerning the buttstocks i was referring to the telescopic stocks but with a recoil buffer addition which is not common in ordinary M4 weapons but in SOPMOD versions only.
http://mesatactical.com/products/enidine-shot-stock-hydraulic-buffer-mil-spec/
http://mesatactical.com/products/m4-sopmod-telescoping-hydraulic-recoil-stock-mil-spec/

Concerning the fire selectorr i just meant a thing which is easy to click ,not anything big like the one in akm.
Any way OFB once again fooled everyone by showing the original AKM that too with wooden furniture.. where as the whole world had switched to polymer.:/
#old wine in new bottle.

 

[ladder]

Though the velocity of 7.62x39 is low it is heavy and punching power is high,which increases recoil and upward muzle climb comparedd with any 5.56x45/39 weapons.
AK Muzzle Device Test Part 1: Recoil Reduction - The Truth About Guns

Concerning the buttstocks i was referring to the telescopic stocks but with a recoil buffer addition which is not common in ordinary M4 weapons but in SOPMOD versions only.
http://mesatactical.com/products/enidine-shot-stock-hydraulic-buffer-mil-spec/
http://mesatactical.com/products/m4-sopmod-telescoping-hydraulic-recoil-stock-mil-spec/

Concerning the fire selectorr i just meant a thing which is easy to click ,not anything big like the one in akm.
Any way OFB once again fooled everyone by showing the original AKM that too with wooden furniture.. where as the whole world had switched to polymer.:/
#old wine in new bottle.

When you get AKM from east-block country at dirt price, any 'fancy' component added which jacks up the price will have the CAG tearing you apart. Because the purpose of the product was two fold

1. To eliminate the import of AKM from east block countries.

2. To have sufficient changes, so that OFB can't be sued by design owners of AKM as was the case with A-7.

========================

* Fancy acc. to CAG.

So, everything you said earlier can be done if asked but it was not as it was not required by the user.

 

[pmaitra]

[video]https://youtu.be/DzXv7w7yvUA[/video]

@1:11: He meant to say 3.8 kilograms, but he said grams.

 

[ladder]

@1:11: He meant to say 3.8 kilograms, but he said grams.

I think that's the Kanpur AKM model that lost out to Ishapore AKM.

 

[ALBY]

How does cloning an AKM and naming it ghatak without even any minor changes help OFB from being sued by kalashnikov concern?
I dont think we are developing a weapon to satisfy CAG or finance ministry but to enhance the lethality of our soldiers.And creating an AK without even basic add ons means OFB didn't get the bus from 1947 era.Even the gunsmiths in NWFP creates better ones.
Concerning the GSQR by users:I am pretty sure these are the ones who had ordered ultra modern and super luxury X-95s for ill trained CRPF to be used as carbine in number exceeding 11000 ,also this people from paramilitary may be the ones who orderd 32000 faulty 9mm betretta carbines to equip BSF who engages targets very much beyond its range.
When coming to desi stuff they will only order very basic stuff and will never give our industries to design something worth their effort.
ps:Any way ishapore guys had done better work compared with the kanpur guys .

 

[ladder]

How does cloning an AKM and naming it ghatak without even any minor changes help OFB from being sued by kalashnikov concern?
I dont think we are developing a weapon to satisfy CAG or finance ministry but to enhance the lethality of our soldiers.And creating an AK without even basic add ons means OFB didn't get the bus from 1947 era.Even the gunsmiths in NWFP creates better ones.
Concerning the GSQR by users:I am pretty sure these are the ones who had ordered ultra modern and super luxury X-95s for ill trained CRPF to be used as carbine in number exceeding 11000 ,also this people from paramilitary may be the ones who orderd 32000 faulty 9mm betretta carbines to equip BSF who engages targets very much beyond its range.
When coming to desi stuff they will only order very basic stuff and will never give our industries to design something worth their effort.

How does cloning an AKM and naming it ghatak without even any minor changes help OFB from being sued by kalashnikov concern?

How about reading the OP before asking?

"Since then, our designers have been attempting to develop an assault rifle, using the AK-47 as a model but without replicating any of its mechanism. Three ordnance factories tried to develop their own variants. These were Rifle Factory of Ishapore, the Small Arms Factory of Kanpur and the Ordnance Factory of Tiruchirapalli.

===========

I dont think we are developing a weapon to satisfy CAG or finance ministry but to enhance the lethality of our soldiers.And creating an AK without even basic add ons means OFB didn't get the bus from 1947 era.Even the gunsmiths in NWFP creates better ones.

Definitely, say that to CAG when asked how a AKM from Bulgaria without add-ons satisfied the needs and didn't prove any less lethal at 22000-27000 per piece. But the same developed in house proves to be less lethal when produced in house in India.

Bulgarian AKM were definitely 2012 as they were procured then, isn't it?

Yeah, NWFP produces better rifle, write to your state govt. to procure from them.

====================

Concerning the GSQR by users:I am pretty sure these are the ones who had ordered ultra modern and super luxury X-95s for ill trained CRPF to be used as carbine in number exceeding 11000 ,also this people from paramilitary may be the ones who orderd 32000 faulty 9mm betretta carbines to equip BSF who engages targets very much beyond its range.

1. Special Units raised among CAPFs during Chidambaram were given relaxation to procure kits on their own. That was a failure, CAPF became a arms bazaar.

2. BSF procures 64,000 MX4 carbine under two needs,
a. They required 9mm in their duties, when guarding border gate openings where farmers go beyond to work in the fields, where frisking and arms handlings require a lower weight of weapon held.
b. In eastern sector they wanted a lower power weapon to reduce lethality as promised. Can't shoot well into BD territory as that was the complaint by them.

c. BSF is also called into law and order duties, riot control and in aid to civil govt.

d. Would be the arms of officer.

e. Wanted to teach a lesson to HK which declined to sell weapons to BSF citing human rights violation.

f. Corruption angle can't be ruled out as a arms agent was involved as reported by media.

 

[ALBY]

I dont get where u are going by stressing out this "without replicating any of its mechanism[COLOR="#000000"][/COLOR]"...As for my eye i see an undrfolding AK.And only in my dreams i expect the mechanism of that weapon is different from that of a good old AK.
Concerning your praises for Bulgarian ones;even it was a deal where there is shadow of corruption as a better AK103 was discarded in favor of it citing the GSQR :/
Though i dont know whether the ones in NWFP shoot straight or not they are masters of reverse engineering and creates copies of what ever weapon they get with in a week that too with those rails and other stuff.There are lot of pics online .
And concerning the quality of weapons by OFB, last heard army discarded the much hyped "AK inspired" Ak7 because of problems in its barell.And the state govt which bought few thousand pieces manufactured were neither happy.

 

[ShoorVeer]

I dont get where u are going by stressing out this "without replicating any of its mechanism"...As for my eye i see an undrfolding AK.And only in my dreams i expect the mechanism of that weapon is different from that of a good old AK.
Concerning your praises for Bulgarian ones;even it was a deal where there is shadow of corruption as a better AK103 was discarded in favor of it citing the GSQR :/
Though i dont know whether the ones in NWFP shoot straight or not they are masters of reverse engineering and creates copies of what ever weapon they get with in a week that too with those rails and other stuff.There are lot of pics online .
And concerning the quality of weapons by OFB, last heard army discarded the much hyped "AK inspired" Ak7 because of problems in its barell.And the state govt which bought few thousand pieces manufactured were neither happy.

As far as the AK-103 is concerned it was rejected because it did not meet the length requirements as per the GSQR. It should have had 16 inches barrel whereas the AK-103 had a 18inch one (including the muzzle brake) that made it longer than specified lengths in the GSQR so they were rejected even before firing and testing them and so Izhmash protested but......

Even though the Bulgarian ones are good in quality and much appreciated

The quality problem from OFB must have been improved thats why they have reportedly ordered the Assault Rifle 7.62mm in mass after passing the tests between the TAR and other models i guess.

 

[ALBY]

That was my whole point.Usually indian GSQRs are tailored in view of some purticular firm's benefits.The length of AK103 gives it more stability due to the muzzle brake.And only an idiot will ever say that bulgarian ones are better than original russian ones.
THere is similar allegation about the GSQR for multical rifles as many believes that it is made in favour of beretta.

 

[ladder]

I dont get where u are going by stressing out this "without replicating any of its mechanism[COLOR="#000000"][/COLOR]"...As for my eye i see an undrfolding AK.And only in my dreams i expect the mechanism of that weapon is different from that of a good old AK.
Concerning your praises for Bulgarian ones;even it was a deal where there is shadow of corruption as a better AK103 was discarded in favor of it citing the GSQR :/
Though i dont know whether the ones in NWFP shoot straight or not they are masters of reverse engineering and creates copies of what ever weapon they get with in a week that too with those rails and other stuff.There are lot of pics online .
And concerning the quality of weapons by OFB, last heard army discarded the much hyped "AK inspired" Ak7 because of problems in its barell.And the state govt which bought few thousand pieces manufactured were neither happy.

I am not stressing but OFB is. And as there are no details of what is changed, I can only go by what is visible, if you look carefully, near the trigger, there is a receiver hump, like you find in Insas and FNC unlike AKM.
So, I am not responsible for your eyes. Nor your dreams.

I have not praised Bulgarian AKM. Just stated that if Bulgarian AKM without any add-ons were found to be 'lethal' and 'precise', so should OFB be as what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If you claim corruption, you have to prove if using published sources hinting at it, otherwise empty talk.

You don't know NWFP AKM clones shoots straight or not, but you benchmarked it. Says a lot.

Pin ball guns too look good in pics, I am not a person who will judge just by picture.

We aren't talking about A-7. We are talking about a 'rifle' which has already got a firm order of 50,000.

I have not seen any complaint from state govt. about A-7 except from a few paid articles which states that because Army rejected it, there must be ghosts in them.

 

[ALBY]

Tehelka - The People's Paper
Tehelka - The People's Paper
Read the story.This news made headlines during the vajpei govt's time,though UPA too went forward with Bulgarian AKMs.
Will you please show a link which says there is an order for 50k where as i only read it 3000 peices for MHA.
Please don't hang on to the NWFP quality for thee sake of making an arguiment.I just said it literally if you dont get what i meant.
How do u come into the conclusion it was paid media who criticised the AK7?Will you please give the link?

 

[ladder]

Tehelka - The People's Paper
Tehelka - The People's Paper
Read the story.This news made headlines during the vajpei govt's time,though UPA too went forward with Bulgarian AKMs.
Will you please show a link which says there is an order for 50k where as i only read it 3000 peices for MHA.
Please don't hang on to the NWFP quality for thee sake of making an arguiment.I just said it literally if you dont get what i meant.
How do u come into the conclusion it was paid media who criticised the AK7?Will you please give the link?

Tehelka? Are you serious? Tehelka article during NDA regime? Stop kidding around.

Interestingly, some people in the know are questioning the wisdom behind the selection of AK-47 for the forces. They challenge the decision to 'modernise' with an archaic weapon like the AK-47. The first model of AK-47 was developed in the year 1947, the year of our independence. If the weapon has been in the news lately, it is for all the wrong reasons: the gun is more popular in terrorist cliques than in national armies. Apparently, there are technologically advanced models, such as the Chinese AK-56 and the AK-101 to AK-105 developed by the Russians, which are available for a little more than what an AK-47 costs.

Seriously you want me to read arguments like this??
What happened to the allegation? Is there an inquiry? If it was a scam why did UPA again order from Bulgaria?
It was just a bubble by Tehelka that burst, and if Tehelka wrote it under influence is anyone's guess.

1. Go through this thread. @Kunal Biswas even posted the link to tender for components for 33000.

2. You brought NWFP as a benchmark, I showed you back how well argued your benchmark was. It's another thing that you want to shed it now. I perfectly get what you meant, no need to test my IQ.

3. For that you have to give a link stating state govt. is unsatisfied as you had claimed.

========

PS. These Bulgarian cos. also sell to US civilian market, is Tehelka saying they are doing so without valid licence. Or the USA civilians are buying archaic AK-47 which started production in 1947 and ended in 1975.

 

[ShoorVeer]

@ALBY If a weapon is produced by someone who did not design it doesnt mean that it will be worse than the product of guys who designed it. Anyways an AK system is very simple to be produced and anyone can produce a good quality AK if they want to provided they get sufficient tech and equipment.

Indian GSQRs are not tailored specifically for a company to win, From your same tehelka article it was written that the Romanian AKs overheated and hence rejected. Had they not overheated and had offered value for money they may have got chosen. Corruption at such high level where representatives of every force were present is not possible. Yes, good weapon systems like AK-103 get rejected due to :-

1. They did not fit the length requirements of the required system (AKM) and hence were not given much thought due to not passing all the QRs and also maybe due to the other contenders passed the QRs.
2. Because they didnt they were viewed as a new weapon system and the idiotic selection committee must have thought of not introducing a "new weapon" in the forces which were already familiar with the AKM.
Such idiotic decisions are taken due to poor interest of the commitee and due to the strict QRs which dont allow such flexibilities, that too at the last moment when other competitiors satisfy the GSQR and it is also unfair for them as you didnt ask for a big muzzle brake from the others.

Have you read the multi-cal rifle GSQR? Is it even public? Dont make such wild claims of huge corruptions based on your logic and your thinking of what is right. The Generals and the DGPs are not idiots sitting there, they have real combat experience and are much more familiar with their force's requirements. As @ladder pointed out about why the Beretta MX4 were bought, and actually they were the only 9mm Carbine that the BSF could have got instead of the MP5 which were refused by HK. Remember the MX4 can accept 92fs magazine, which are in good numbers in BSF, so it was a good decision to buy that weapon. It turned out to be faulty not because of BSF's fault but due to manufacturing defects by the supplier which were also replaced so no problems now!!!!Just think before making such big corruption claims, had there been some corruption, it would have come out in the open like the Augusta Westland scam!

 

[ALBY]

How you converted a figure of 33000 to 50000.?You should try maths olympiad some day and make the nation proud.....
Well just found out that there is no point in arguing with you.
@ladder do u know how many manufacturers in the world sells an AK with a valid license from Rosobon exports?

Concerning the allegation of corruption against MX4,it was discussed in the forum many times .I dont think i had to waste my time by revinding everything.

 

[ladder]

How you converted a figure of 33000 to 50000.?You should try maths olympiad some day and make the nation proud.....
Well just found out that there is no point in arguing with you.
@ladder do u know how many manufacturers in the world sells an AK with a valid license from Rosobon exports?

Concerning the allegation of corruption against MX4,it was discussed in the forum many times .I dont think i had to waste my time by revinding everything.

3000 the figure you quoted is also not 33000. Hope you won the maths Olympiad sparky.

Will you please show a link which says there is an order for 50k where as i only read it 3000 peices for MHA.

And from where the 50,000 figure came? Time and again I have said to you to read the OP.


Lol! you want to wriggle out no problem. I can understand you couldn't defend any of your point.
@ALBY, do you know whether Kalashnikov patented his design? Do you know patent doesn't hold if you improve upon the design? Do you know patent is valid for only 15 to 25 years. Do you know east block countries go the licence to manufacture?

Go and read why no legal action is possible against those east block manufacturers.

I didn't ask about MX4 Mr. Mathematician.

 

[ALBY]

The 3000 figure i wrote was based on the quote from Saurav Jha'S tweet.If you didn't read that ,then its not my fault.
Concerning the License given to East Block nations,That was only for manufacture and not for export.
And regarding the authenticity of tehelka ,AFAIK they had brought out the news on barak missile scam.
And against your repeated statement that i put NWFP arms as bench mark i had made it clear,I just said it literallyjust to show the plight of Indian small arms industry which couldn't produce a world class weapon.
Please give me thhe link for the OP or what ever youu are claiming for the massive order for 50000 figure.

 

[ladder]

The 3000 figure i wrote was based on the quote from Saurav Jha'S tweet.If you didn't read that ,then its not my fault.
Concerning the License given to East Block nations,That was only for manufacture and not for export.
And regarding the authenticity of tehelka ,AFAIK they had brought out the news on barak missile scam.
And against your repeated statement that i put NWFP arms as bench mark i had made it clear,I just said it literallyjust to show the plight of Indian small arms industry which couldn't produce a world class weapon.
Please give me thhe link for the OP or what ever youu are claiming for the massive order for 50000 figure.

OP means Opening post of this thread. I can't help you if you need a link to that.

Sourav Jha is no God that I have to read all his tweets. But it is mandatory you read the OP before you post in the thread. Besides he said 3000 is the initial run, larger order expected later.

Still, @Kunal Biswas posted the tender for components 33000 pieces, here in this thread, which you choose to ignore. Speaks volume about you.

That's what I said, read patent and licence manufacturing rules before blabbering.

That has been answered again and again. You deliberately chose to be obtuse about it.
Tehelka might be gospel for you, not for me, the link to the article you posted has a stench of non-neutrality attached with it.

 

[ALBY]

Any way its all off topic.
Next time when you write OP/DP or any short forms please explain what it is as i am not that much well versed.
Concerning the 50000 figure,it is said by the OFB,not army nor MHA.I hope it was not the same like the saing 3.8grams instead of kg .Any way i wish they gets that much orders.
So you are also just blabberiing abbout a thing whicch is not sure,ie army may or may not put an order of 33000 or 50000.
Your whole points are just based on some tenders which calls for 33000 pieces of raw materials or some TV interview by an OFB official .In the past too there were similiar things claims by OFB like INSAS excaliber,kalanthak,amogh, but till date barring few products nothing much had happened for these items thanks to the flawed policies of both OFB and Military.

 

[ladder]

I can't help you buddy if you are a pro BJP bhakt concerning the Thehelka.
Any way its all off topic.
Next time when you write OP/DP or any short forms please explain what it is as i am not that much well versed.
Concerning the 50000 figure,it is said by the OFB,not army nor MHA.I hope it was not the same like the saing 3.8grams instead of kg .Any way i wish they gets that much orders.
So you are also just blabberiing abbout a thing whicch is not sure,ie army may or may not put an order of 33000 or 50000.
Your whole points are just based on some tenders which calls for 33000 pieces of raw materials or some TV interview by an OFB official .In the past too there were similiar things claims by OFB like INSAS excaliber,kalanthak,amogh, but till date barring few products nothing much had happened for these items thanks to the flawed policies of both OFB and Military.

LOL! really?

TV interview? Which one.

I can't help who doesn't want to go through the tread.

Live in your cocoon. Bye.

 

[ALBY]

Thats the same thing i told you earlier.phew......