INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[ezsasa]

Low demand for Insas rifles triggers concern in ordnance factories

NAGPUR: The Indian Army may be wanting to replace with new weapons the home-made assault rifle Insas, which was used in the Kargil war, but ordnance factories want to make some more: Just enough to keep the show going.

There have been practically no orders from the army for making these rifles since the last two years. Insas, which has been the bread and butter product for three ordnance factories at Ishapore, Kanpur and Tiruchirapalli, has left the units with a sizeable unused capacity. As a result, the ordnance factory board (OFB), has approached Director General, Infantry, requesting that at least a stop gap order for INSAS be placed to keep the factories running till the situation normalizes. The meeting was held over a week ago, said a source.

Even as it continued with orders from the paramilitary forces, no business from the army has led left the factories without any major job work recently. The army has expressed its willingness to consider the request, said a source dealing with infantry arms in the ordnance factory.

Even as the ordnance factory may not be a commercial organization, lack of orders has an indirect financial impact on it, which has prompted the board to take up the matter. The workers' pays are linked with productivity. Over 50% of the wages is on piece work basis. So unless there is enough workload, the level of wages cannot be maintained.

Sources say on an average a worker draws up to Rs40,000 a month but a major part includes the piecework component. Experienced workers draw as much as Rs80,000 on the basis of piecework. If the factories continue to pay higher wages without productivity, it can lead to an audit objection. This is what prompted the board to approach the army for fresh orders, so that at least the level of wages can be maintained, the source said.

The army is currently evaluating the orders from foreign players for interchangeable barrel rifles. Ultimately, the bulk production orders for the new rifles may come to ordnance factories through a transfer of technology. Until then, there is a focus on developing new products, but the lack of bulk orders currently is also pinching, said a source.

The army wants to replace Insas with new weapons as the troops were regularly complaining about its drawbacks. The army is now going for guns which can have interchangeable barrels of 7.26mm and 5.56 calibre, suiting the operational requirement.

Meanwhile, ordnance factories have developed an indigenous assault rifle, hoping to replace the famed AK-47. Three different variants have been developed by the factories at Kanpur, Ishapore and Tirichurapalli.

In a nutshell:

* For two years Indian Army has not made any order for Insas rifles

* But ordnance factories want to produce some more

* The ordnance factories at Ishapore, Kanpur and Tiruchirapalli produce Insas

* If there is no order the workers of the three factories will have hard time

* So Ordnance Factory Board has approached army for fresh orders

* So that at least the level of wages is maintained

 

[Twinblade]

The cover is not ideal for mounting anything. Even if it rock solid and I doubt it is, it will not hold zero. When you remove the cover and put it back on it will not be at the same original place.

I am sorry, but you are an idiot. There are plenty of guns that have sights on dust cover and they still hold zero because of a sturdier dust cover. Galil, Valmet, Beryl 96, R4 to begin with, do it that way. While being subject to build quality and not the ideal option, optics can be mounted on dust covers if the dust cover is designed that way. If you look at the dust cover hinge on INSAS, it is much more tightly secured than AKMs and the cover is also a lot thicker to avoid flexing.

That's why AK have side rails to mount optics or they replace the rear iron sight to mount optic. That's the only two places are stable enough to mount accessories. The Russian want to get rid of their AK for a modernized body style.

AKMs were never designed for optics and hence optics don't work well on dust covers. The placement of sights on AKMs ahead of the dust cover was a conscious decision as traditionally the sights on russian rifle were placed ahead of dust cover, mosin-nagant for example.

 

[Blood+]

The cover is not ideal for mounting anything. Even if it rock solid and I doubt it is, it will not hold zero. When you remove the cover and put it back on it will not be at the same original place. That's why AK have side rails to mount optics or they replace the rear iron sight to mount optic. That's the only two places are stable enough to mount accessories. The Russian want to get rid of their AK for a modernized body style.

Any rifles can use free floating rails. Lets look at the AK variation. Trevor which is an AK bullpup use free floating handguards. Sig 556 another AK use free floating handguards. XCR another AK use free floating handguards. The list goes on.

I'll be brutally honest, you guys are getting rip off. The rifle body is not fit for a modern warfare, for a modern military. It might be good 30 years or so but now the body design is so outdated. I'm very surprise the Indian military even considering buying this. For the money I expect more not less.

And I'll be brutally honest, you sir,are a total moron and and an arrogant ass who does not belong to a defence forum..............period.And you are not just a moron,but also suffers from severe comprehension disabilities - that man you quoted was talking about a free floating barrel,not the rails.First learn to read you fool.And you think you are more qualified than the developers and the users to pass random judgement??And may I ask what is your qualification that grants you to speak with such authority and insult senior members at random,huh??

 

[Ky Loung]

I am sorry, but you are an idiot. There are plenty of guns that have sights on dust cover and they still hold zero because of a sturdier dust cover. Galil, Valmet, Beryl 96, R4 to begin with, do it that way. While being subject to build quality and not the ideal option, optics can be mounted on dust covers if the dust cover is designed that way. If you look at the dust cover hinge on INSAS, it is much more tightly secured than AKMs and the cover is also a lot thicker to avoid flexing.



AKMs were never designed for optics and hence optics don't work well on dust covers. The placement of sights on AKMs ahead of the dust cover was a conscious decision as traditionally the sights on russian rifle were placed ahead of dust cover, mosin-nagant for example.

No you're wrong. Any style cover like the AK will never hold zero. Many companies in the USA tried it and all have failed. AK style cover does not work. It will not hold zero. That's why modern firearms do not use the same type of filed field striping as the AKM. With that said it look like India will lean the hard way if they adapt this type of body.

 

[Ky Loung]

And I'll be brutally honest, you sir,are a total moron and and an arrogant ass who does not belong to a defence forum..............period.And you are not just a moron,but also suffers from severe comprehension disabilities - that man you quoted was talking about a free floating barrel,not the rails.First learn to read you fool.And you think you are more qualified than the developers and the users to pass random judgement??And may I ask what is your qualification that grants you to speak with such authority and insult senior members at random,huh??

If you mean Ray? He lack common/basic knowledge of what he's talking about. I just pointed it out.

Your national pride get in your way of buying the best weapon at the lowest price for your troops. The rifle is outdated. Made by government employes never shot a weapon before. Copying an old design and trying to pass it as new. You guys want to be modernize and yet you keep creating old shit. The more you stay in this route the further you will behind everybody. Take the painful path of modernization like every countries.

Like I posted before if this weapon was given to a modernized military it will not be look at.

 

[Ray]

If you mean Ray? He lack common/basic knowledge of what he's talking about. I just pointed it out.

Your national pride get in your way of buying the best weapon at the lowest price for your troops. The rifle is outdated. Made by government employes never shot a weapon before. Copying an old design and trying to pass it as new. You guys want to be modernize and yet you keep creating old shit. The more you stay in this route the further you will behind everybody.

Like I posted before if this weapon was given to a modernized military it will even be look at.

I am afraid it is you who lacks knowledge and it has been clearly indicated by my posts.

You have no clue of combat, but a mere individual who acquires knowledge gleaned through glossies that are but publicity material of weapons company, who do their best to sell their weapons with contrived claims.

You are once again in this current discussion being thrown up as the witless banking on the glossies but unable to answer the rejoinders to your tall claims.

The rifle is outdated.

This proves that you know nothing of combat.

Rifle outdated?

Has the missile replaced it in the US infantry?

The more you stay in this route the further you will behind everybody.

That is why we are winners be it a war or COIN.

And the US?

Should I list it out for you?

 

[SafedSagar]

This proves that you know nothing of combat.

Rifle outdated?

Has the missile replaced it in the US infantry?

Ray Sir, i think he wants to say "the(INSAS) rifle is outdated"

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Afaik, I never had issue with it with scopes so does LMG version, Unless you fire it, You cannot get to the conclusion ..

The design works in our environment and with our training, Other Rifles including Galil ace and Colt M4 and ARX-160 designs failed where our 1B1 are working around the clock ..

The cover is not ideal for mounting anything. Even if it rock solid and I doubt it is, it will not hold zero. When you remove the cover and put it back on it will not be at the same original place. That's why AK have side rails to mount optics or they replace the rear iron sight to mount optic. That's the only two places are stable enough to mount accessories. The Russian want to get rid of their AK for a modernized body style.

Any rifles can use free floating rails. Lets look at the AK variation. Trevor which is an AK bullpup use free floating handguards. Sig 556 another AK use free floating handguards. XCR another AK use free floating handguards. The list goes on.

I'll be brutally honest, you guys are getting rip off. The rifle body is not fit for a modern warfare, for a modern military. It might be good 30 years or so but now the body design is so outdated. I'm very surprise the Indian military even considering buying this. For the money I expect more not less.

=============

Ray Sir, Is third generation Solider and Gentlemen and respected moderator on this forum, I suggest please go through his post and understand his views instead of getting personal ..

If you mean Ray? He lack common/basic knowledge of what he's talking about. I just pointed it out.

 

[anupamsurey]

yeah i agree, Ray sir has got a good insight in such things and his points must be appreciated.
after all, if you are not a doctor what is the point of discussing about diseases and medicines.

and or getting personal and showing that you are "mister know'' all will not help either.

 

[Blood+]

If you mean Ray? He lack common/basic knowledge of what he's talking about. I just pointed it out.

Your national pride get in your way of buying the best weapon at the lowest price for your troops. The rifle is outdated. Made by government employes never shot a weapon before. Copying an old design and trying to pass it as new. You guys want to be modernize and yet you keep creating old shit. The more you stay in this route the further you will behind everybody. Take the painful path of modernization like every countries.

Like I posted before if this weapon was given to a modernized military it will not be look at.

You think that you have figured it all out huh kid??You think you know everything here or you have got all the knowledge because you have got that US flag under your profile??Well guess what,you couldn't have been more wrong than this.Sure,the INSAS was developed by the 'government employees' but it was strictly designed as per the GSQR submitted the Indian Army.And they are government employees as well.And no one is trying to fool someone else,it's just you ho's fooling himself by believing that he has got all of it figured out.

And don't talk shit about @Ray sir................he's a former Brigadier general who has taken part into three major conflicts and numerous COIN operations.He has forgotten much more than these stuffs than you will ever learn kid,so show some respect,that man has earned that much ................or if it is too much for you,keep your mouth shut.Guess you educated westerners lack the basic courtesy of showing respect to your elders.

 

[Blood+]

That is why we are winners be it a war or COIN.

And the US?

Should I list it out for you?

Only word comes to my mind - Vietnam!!And one should just compare that to IPKF experience in Sri Lanka and it will be all clear.

 

[Blood+]

Rifle outdated?

Has the missile replaced it in the US infantry?



That is why we are winners be it a war or COIN.

?

Sir,he meant the INSAS was outdated and not the rifle as an arm in general.

 

[Ray]

Sir,he meant the INSAS was outdated and not the rifle as an arm in general.

it is all an issue to keep the arms industry fuelled and the economy.

We were all on 7.62 and there was no complaints as such by those who had used it in REAL Wars.

But then the war industry mandarins espoused gushing eloquence to include new fangled theories and the world switched to 5.56.

And now, they are tomtoming the virtues of the 7.62 and not to be ridiculed, they are throwing up new calibres and what have you.

It is just marketing and keeping their pockets warm.

There is only a remote possibility that the US will ever fight a REAL WAR. They will only be there for firefighting as in COIN and so they are obsessed by the requirement of COIN and pretending to conjure a one size fits all.

 

[Ray]

yeah i agree, Ray sir has got a good insight in such things and his points must be appreciated.
after all, if you are not a doctor what is the point of discussing about diseases and medicines.

and or getting personal and showing that you are "mister know'' all will not help either.

You are right.

The weapons systems has to been seen in the combat scenario and not merely on technological marvels.

An overall view has to be taken and not segmentising the 'marvels'.

I have seen discussions that the Israeli Merkeva tank is the best in the world. Maybe. But try using in the Indian desert or Kutch, you will have bogged down memorials.

Inspite of all the brouhaha that some US chaps do to show that they are the last world in war fighting, they are shown the mirror and the wise ones realise that they are not the Know Alls

US troops learning 'cliff assault tactics' from Indians in J&K

Braving inclement weather and rocky terrain, special troops of the United States Pacific Command have adventured through 16,000 feet high cliffs overlooking the Indus River to learn 'cliff assault tactics' from Indian forces during the three-week joint Indo-US exercise in high altitude warfare in the Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir.

Cliff assault tactics were used by Indian troops to eject Pakistani forces from the mountaintops during the 1999 Kargil conflict.

"We are trying to learn the tactics from Indian soldiers despite tough rocky terrain and deadly weather conditions," Sergeant G Lloyd, who heads the group of 23 US soldiers, told reporters in Leh.

US troops learning 'cliff assault tactics' in Leh - Rediff.com India News

It is time to smell the coffee for some of these armchair warriors of the US who visit this forum with bai khata (glossy reading)'experts'.

 

[Ray]

Only word comes to my mind - Vietnam!!And one should just compare that to IPKF experience in Sri Lanka and it will be all clear.

Vietnam was a disaster. Yet, there were soldiers on the other side.

Somalia was a disgrace where the rag tag made these fancy weaponry aircraft support GI Joes look like amateurs scurrying out and handing over to the UN was most embarrassing. The India Army, as a part of the UN, in contrast did magnificently. And the UN there was under an Indian Brigadier.

Check this

An Indian success story
Indian contingent of UN forces ensures peace, wins over Somalis with its human touch


Read more at: Indian contingent of UN forces ensures peace, wins over Somalis with its human touch : NATION - India Today

What about Iraq?

They quit without any solution and it led to the scourge called ISIS ravaging the area.

Therefore, I am not the one who can be confounded by the hyperbole that Americans are prone to do to make a Mountain of a Molehill and say they know the best and can solve all issues plaguing the world and war industry.

 

[Blood+]

What about Iraq?

They quit without any solution and it led to the scourge called ISIS ravaging the area.

Therefore, I am not the one who can be confounded by the hyperbole that Americans are prone to do to make a Mountain of a Molehill and say they know the best and can solve all issues plaguing the world and war industry.

True indeed,what they did in Iraq was nothing short of utter cowardice to say the least.But while we are at it,I would like to point out something.You gotta admit one thing - the typical US soldiers and Marines are on average quite large well built in appearance compared to say a Indian or a Pakistani soldier!!By large,I'm not talking about just height but also their muscle mass!!Have you seen their videos in Iraq and A'stan??Damn they look like heavy weight boxers or something.And this prompts me to ask you a question - Sir,does the Indian Army pay enough attention behind building the upper body strength of its troopers like they do in the US??

And besides,their marksmanship is also quite impressive.I have seen many videos encounters of US soldiers or Marines,and in an open battle the Taliban and other insurgents rarely manage to kill or wound a US soldier and nearly every time gets their arses handed to them!!It's the IEDs that have taken a massive tole on US lives and their equipment,but in a fire fight the Americans always seem to end up with dealing disproportionate amount casualties to the enemy compared to their own.

 

[ezsasa]

True indeed,what they did in Iraq was nothing short of utter cowardice to say the least.But while we are at it,I would like to point out something.You gotta admit one thing - the typical US soldiers and Marines are on average quite large well built in appearance compared to say a Indian or a Pakistani soldier!!By large,I'm not talking about just height but also their muscle mass!!Have you seen their videos in Iraq and A'stan??Damn they look like heavy weight boxers or something.And this prompts me to ask you a question - Sir,does the Indian Army pay enough attention behind building the upper body strength of its troopers like they do in the US??

And besides,their marksmanship is also quite impressive.I have seen many videos encounters of US soldiers or Marines,and in an open battle the Taliban and other insurgents rarely manage to kill or wound a US soldier and nearly every time gets their arses handed to them!!It's the IEDs that have taken a massive tole on US lives and their equipment,but in a fire fight the Americans always seem to end up with dealing disproportionate amount casualties to the enemy compared to their own.

Yup I quite agree. I am not an expert but these were my assessments :

1) an average American gym goer uses protein powders along with regular foods to build body mass. Creatine helps build body mass.

2) American soldier has about 40000 usd worth equipment mainly Kevlar helmets and bulletproof vests

3) fight itself with afghans is an unequal fight. Americans have tech advantage with them, afghans on the other hand are fighting with 100-200 dollars worth weapons on each one of them. And afghans do not fight with Kevlar vests and helmets.

4) I had always thought Indian soldier is built for defensive doctrine I.e less strength and more stamina, makes sense because of the continuos heat in our part of the region. Our guys prefer travelling light and fast. Americans on the other hand are built for offence not defensive doctrine. Their default strategy is to go on the offensive.

5) and lastly average american eats atleast double the amount of calories per day in comparison with us. American Guys who work out end up getting body mass and who don't end up getting obese.

Experts can add more to the topic.

 

[Blood+]

Yup I quite agree. I am not an expert but these were my assessments :

1) an average American gym goer uses protein powders along with regular foods to build body mass. Creatine helps build body mass.

2) American soldier has about 40000 usd worth equipment mainly Kevlar helmets and bulletproof vests

3) fight itself with afghans is an unequal fight. Americans have tech advantage with them, afghans on the other hand are fighting with 100-200 dollars worth weapons on each one of them. And afghans do not fight with Kevlar vests and helmets.

4) I had always thought Indian soldier is built for defensive doctrine I.e less strength and more stamina, makes sense because of the continuos heat in our part of the region. Our guys prefer travelling light and fast. Americans on the other hand are built for offence not defensive doctrine. Their default strategy is to go on the offensive.

5) and lastly average american eats atleast double the amount of calories per day in comparison with us. American Guys who work out end up getting body mass and who don't end up getting obese.

Experts can add more to the topic.

I agree to most of your points barring a few.Like it isn't true that Indian soldiers do not use body armors or helmets.The problem is that present body armors are quite heavy and impair movements.And Kevlar helmets are more or less useless against most FMJ rounds at standard ranges.

And secondly,although Indian troopers on average are lightly built compared to their US counterparts (they tend to be of broader frame naturally),I do not believe that they are not well suited for offensive operations (and neither the US ones being unsuited for defense).

And as far as I have heard,Indian Army is among the top three of most well fed armys in the world,but I could be wrong though @Ray sir can give more insight into this fact.

 

[anupamsurey]

and i thought that the doctrine of crack troops and assault forces is to travel light and travel quick, they gain the time to choose their own playing fields and have an edge in combat. so the notion of heavy US forces for offense is not always correct.
on the contrary armed forces give importance to both stamina and endurance along with strength.

the eating habits have direct relationship to their Basal Metabolic Rates (BMR) and environment.

Yup I quite agree. I am not an expert but these were my assessments :

1) an average American gym goer uses protein powders along with regular foods to build body mass. Creatine helps build body mass.

2) American soldier has about 40000 usd worth equipment mainly Kevlar helmets and bulletproof vests

3) fight itself with afghans is an unequal fight. Americans have tech advantage with them, afghans on the other hand are fighting with 100-200 dollars worth weapons on each one of them. And afghans do not fight with Kevlar vests and helmets.

4) I had always thought Indian soldier is built for defensive doctrine I.e less strength and more stamina, makes sense because of the continuos heat in our part of the region. Our guys prefer travelling light and fast. Americans on the other hand are built for offence not defensive doctrine. Their default strategy is to go on the offensive.

5) and lastly average american eats atleast double the amount of calories per day in comparison with us. American Guys who work out end up getting body mass and who don't end up getting obese.

Experts can add more to the topic.

 

[anupamsurey]

you skipped the afganistan part sir. even the taliban will resurface in afganistan, once the US led coalition forces pull out. a nominal US presence will not help the cause and poor civilians will suffer.