INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Kunal Biswas]

Never underestimate a round, only because it's .22 diameter bullet.

Graphic Pictures :

This is work of NATO 5.56mm which are lighter than OFB 5.56mm ammo

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_vJcKa90vLkg/S2RTg_KWWCI/AAAAAAAAHyI/JkspbO3VNfU/s1024/image006.jpg
http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/images/75688.jpg
sniper_shot2_292.jpg Photo by IkeMcgowan | Photobucket

===============

5.56mm has many variation, IA use 64gr 5.56mm with Muzzle velocity of 2900fps vs NATO SS109 62gn at 2900fps, With 1B1`s 18inch barrel and with twist rate 1/7, Its is killing even at 650ms range, 600ms is more than sufficient for AR range as most battle occur under 300ms ..

About newer 6.5mm or 6.8mm and their marketing advertise as it is heavier and faster yet at affordable recoil, Then its just advertisement for marketing, New Generation 5.56mm have similar or better preform ace, I have posted a research in last page conducted by US army with other caliber rounds as you mentioned ..

"The military must change the caliber and cartridge of the guns it gives infantry soldiers. Stoner's little 5.56-mm cartridge was ideal for softening the recoil of World War II infantry calibers in order to allow fully automatic fire. But today's cartridge is simply too small for modern combat. Its lack of mass limits its range to less than 400 meters. The optimum caliber for tomorrow's rifle is between 6.5 and 7 millimeters."
Source: theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/01/gun-trouble/383508/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INSAS 5.56mm Rifle Use NATO standard FMJ Ammunition this Include SS109, M193 Also Indian Made 5.56mm, Details and Pictures following >>

=========================
=========================


5.56 X 45MM SS109 FMJ

Mass : 4.0 gm

==========================
==========================

5.56 X 45mm M193 FMJ

Mass : 3.56 gm

==========================
==========================

5.56 X 45mm OFB FMJ

Mass : 4.16 gm

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Continue Discussion at : http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/3796-assault-rifle-155.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

All Foreign Assault Rifle under trial failed under Indian conditions.

The Indian Army began the final round of confirmatory trials in support of its requirement for 44,618 close quarter battle (CQB) 5.56 mm carbines and 33.6 million rounds of ammunition on 9 June, defence industry officials told IHS Jane's .

The Beretta ARX-160, Colt M4, and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Galil Ace carbines will undergo a series of tests at army establishments and weapon-testing facilities until the end of July. These include weapon sights, furniture, and ammunition trials.

The competing guns will also undergo a "mud test" to gauge their ability to operate in poor conditions, an evaluation all three failed during trials in 2012 in the Rajasthan desert and high-altitude regions.

Source : Indian Army kicks off final carbine trials - IHS Jane's 360

=========
=========

Btw, those suggesting imports to replace INSAS should read this.


Indian Army kicks off final carbine trials - IHS Jane's 360

All carbines under trial failed under Indian conditions.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

All Foreign Assault Rifle under trial failed under Indian conditions.

The Indian Army began the final round of confirmatory trials in support of its requirement for 44,618 close quarter battle (CQB) 5.56 mm carbines and 33.6 million rounds of ammunition on 9 June, defence industry officials told IHS Jane's .

The Beretta ARX-160, Colt M4, and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Galil Ace carbines will undergo a series of tests at army establishments and weapon-testing facilities until the end of July. These include weapon sights, furniture, and ammunition trials.

The competing guns will also undergo a "mud test" to gauge their ability to operate in poor conditions, an evaluation all three failed during trials in 2012 in the Rajasthan desert and high-altitude regions.

Source : Indian Army kicks off final carbine trials - IHS Jane's 360

=========
=========

 

[Kunal Biswas]

All Foreign Assault Rifle under trial failed under Indian conditions.

The Indian Army began the final round of confirmatory trials in support of its requirement for 44,618 close quarter battle (CQB) 5.56 mm carbines and 33.6 million rounds of ammunition on 9 June, defence industry officials told IHS Jane's .

The Beretta ARX-160, Colt M4, and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Galil Ace carbines will undergo a series of tests at army establishments and weapon-testing facilities until the end of July. These include weapon sights, furniture, and ammunition trials.

The competing guns will also undergo a "mud test" to gauge their ability to operate in poor conditions, an evaluation all three failed during trials in 2012 in the Rajasthan desert and high-altitude regions.

Source : Indian Army kicks off final carbine trials - IHS Jane's 360

=========
=========

============================
============================

Ishapore rifle factory design Rifle goes into mass production ..

KOLKATA: Rifle Factory, Ishapore, one of the oldest ordnance factories in the country, has successfully designed an assault rifle on the lines of the AK-47.Sources in the Ordnance Factory Board said the prototype of this weapon had successfully cleared field trials by the Army, the Indian Air Force and the Sashastra Seema Bal. The Ishapore factory will soon start production of 50,000 units of this rifle in the first phase.

For over a decade now, the Ordnance Factory Board has been attempting to develop an indigenous assault rifle on the lines of the AK-47. Initially, there was some embarrassment after an ordnance factory displayed an indigenous replica of the AK-47 at a defence expo in Delhi. This didn't go unnoticed and Mikhail Kalashnikov, the inventor of the world's most sold and used assault rifle that goes by his name, threatened to file a copyright violation suit against the Indian ordnance factory.

"Since then, our designers have been attempting to develop an assault rifle, using the AK-47 as a model but without replicating any of its mechanism. Three ordnance factories tried to develop their own variants. These were Rifle Factory of Ishapore, the Small Arms Factory of Kanpur and the Ordnance Factory of Tiruchirapalli. The Ishapore factory has a long history of developing and making rifles. During the World Wars, this factory produced .303 bolt-action rifles for the Allied forces. After the 1962 Sino-India conflict, the factory developed and built the 7.62mm self-loading semi-automatic rifle. This rifle was called the Ishapore Rifle and it went on to become the mainstay for the Indian security forces for several decades. In the 90's, the factory started manufacturing the 5.56mm Insas rifles that are still the primary personal weapon of the Indian infantryman," an official said.

The three factories at Ishapore, Kanpur and Tiruchirapalli built prototypes that underwent tests for the first time earlier this year. Minor defects were detected in all three variants. While the one developed by the Ishapore factory was declared fit in all other aspects, it failed to operate successfully in mud. An assault rifle has to be effective in all conditions, even when fired from under slush.

"This defect was rectified subsequently and when the final round of tests was conducted, the Ishapore variant was declared the best. This is an improved version of any assault rifle and the designers borrowed several facets from the 5.56mm Insas, which was also developed at Ishapore, while making this rifle. With the Insas going out of production, facilities at the Ishapore factory were lying idle. The new order will sustain the factory for the times to come," the official added.

Source :

India Develops AK-47 Variant
Ishapore factory develops Indian variant of AK-47 | idrw.org
Ishapore factory develops Indian variant of AK-47 - The Times of India
Ishapore factory develops Indian variant of AK-47 - The Economic Times


==================
==================
==================
==================


^^ Explains ...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Double Post ..

 

[ALBY]

This ISan old article and of late i had seen some where that the last 2 contenders remaining are Galil Ace and ARX-160.
If improved 5.56x45 Rounds are so better then there is no point in importing multi cal weapons.Just go with 5.56 in CT ops too after inducting of MCIWS or Finsas

 

[sydsnyper]

This is a possible route we can take with respect to future firearm development. Instead of reinventing the wheel, and given that assault weapons development has more or less stagnated (with newer weapons only cosmetically different from their immediate predecessors), we can revamp existing weapon systems with required improvements. The following video is an example of an improved RPD machine gun:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxRMD1FQjAc

 

[Austinjimson]

Kunal who are those dead and injured with that 5.56mm round

 

[Meriv90]

All Foreign Assault Rifle under trial failed under Indian conditions.

Source : Indian Army kicks off final carbine trials - IHS Jane's 360

=========
=========

Do you know what kind of test have been applied? possible that an israeli AR didn't surpass a desert trial or the ARX given to the Alpini the altitude one?

 

[ALBY]

When will we see modified INsas ,AKs,VZs and LMGs in indian army.Its a good but expensive step rather than importing new weapons which offer no revolutionary capability which the current weapons have except some facilities like railings and collapsible buttstocks,optics andcharging handles which could easily be fitted to the old weapons like INSAS ,AK and VZ once we modify them .The best example infront of us are the Russians who had some similar with their AK-74s.

 

[ezsasa]

When will we see modified INsas ,AKs,VZs and LMGs in indian army.Its a good but expensive step rather than importing new weapons which offer no revolutionary capability which the current weapons have except some facilities like railings and collapsible buttstocks,optics andcharging handles which could easily be fitted to the old weapons like INSAS ,AK and VZ once we modify them .The best example infront of us are the Russians who had some similar with their AK-74s.

May be army can ask development of kits, kits that be developed by OFB themselves. I don't think DRDO needs to get involved, I don't see a case where new materials needs to be created. I am sure current available materials carbon or metallic are sufficient.

These kits once delivered can be used by army to modify their weapons themselves. Accessories can come later based on requirements.

Is this a workable idea?

 

[salute]

According to report, Only first phase will get a 50,000 units, Sound similar to Number of AK bought for CT some years back ..

why don't indian govt. put indian pvt.sector in weapon business the whole thing from designing to production because drdo ,ofb like govt. companys cannot compete with foreign companies.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Few points here ..

1. 1B1 under service is 60% made by Private co, And rest 40% is made by OFB ..

2. Pvt sector is better off serial production than R&D this is due to national security ..

3. Their are no companies in India that can invest the amount similar to DRDO in R&D as they will go bankrupt ..

why don't indian govt. put indian pvt.sector in weapon business the whole thing from designing to production because drdo ,ofb like govt. companys cannot compete with foreign companies.

 

[ezsasa]

Few points here ..

3. Their are no companies in India that can invest the amount similar to DRDO in R&D as they will go bankrupt ..

I will have to disagree on this one. There is lots of cash in the market. If you remember even mahindra wanted to develop a rifle along with steyr 5-6 years back.
I really doubt it would take more than 10-20 crores to develop a gun, even if they have to start from scratch. by scratch i mean buying land for R&D centre and building a fresh team.

As per me:
1) issue is more to do with certainty, certainty that they will get sufficient orders even if their gun passes gun trails.
2) Policy Framework does not exist for such a endeavour which makes it risky. ex: How will they develop a gun if they are not allowed to buy or make prohibited bore ammunition.
3) Even if they did their part, assurance that Govt/defence would do their part in a timely manner. unreasonable delays are a loss especially if it is a new company.

There is a higher chance for assault weapon to be made by private players if govt. announces a competition like in U.S or Russia, with assurance that they will get the order if they win the competition. Say they are able to make a gun for 25k, almost a million guns at 25k a pop is a lot of dough. 10-20 crores is peanuts to what they might earn.

 

[Hari Sud]

Pardon me for asking; but I see no picture of new Ishapore rifle, which passed all the tests and about 50,000 of these are being made in the first phase. There are photoshop copies of several rifles invluding Trichy, but none Ishapore rifle.

While you post a picture, please tell me that, are we going to standardize this as an Indian Army assault rifle or just a rifle to meet greater demands of the police forces in the country.

 

[Spindrift]

3. Their are no companies in India that can invest the amount similar to DRDO in R&D as they will go bankrupt ..

As far as DRDO's (IOF) R&D for small arms is concerned, they are not doing any which can be termed as significant. It's mostly cut and paste.

As per the information on IOF's site they have been around from 1787 (Indian Ordnance Factories: History), but they have till now not even come up with a locally designed pistol.

Setting up a mid sized manufacturing unit will not cost that much.... There are a lot of players who are interested in getting into this, but the government is dragging it's feet. However, the government is planning to amend the arms act of 1959 and one of the amendments will be to exclude "parts of arms from the definition of" firearms which will allow private player to come in and help in the improvements of certain components.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I don`t disagree on the part that Successful design such as 1B1 are completely manufactured and even upgraded under Private co, And domestic competition between Pvt co ..

About my previous post, I was talking about R&D not serial production ..

There is a higher chance for assault weapon to be made by private players if govt. announces a competition like in U.S or Russia, with assurance that they will get the order if they win the competition. Say they are able to make a gun for 25k, almost a million guns at 25k a pop is a lot of dough. 10-20 crores is peanuts to what they might earn.

==================

As far as i remember IA never issued any requirement for Pistol, We are doing great with FN35 or even Glock 17 ..

As a user i think its quite significant that our 1B1s are working everyday fine in line of fire where famed AR are falling down, Kindly re-read the thread And STOP bumping in between with knee-jerking points ------ > Please.

As far as DRDO's (IOF) R&D for small arms is concerned, they are not doing any which can be termed as significant. It's mostly cut and paste.

As per the information on IOF's site they have been around from 1787 (Indian Ordnance Factories: History), but they have till now not even come up with a locally designed pistol.

 

[salute]

Few points here ..

1. 1B1 under service is 60% made by Private co, And rest 40% is made by OFB ..

2. Pvt sector is better off serial production than R&D this is due to national security ..

3. Their are no companies in India that can invest the amount similar to DRDO in R&D as they will go bankrupt ..

totally agree with you,but its current thing i mean in few yrs or in a decade will private companies gonna in weapons system.
right now they dont have money or infrastructure but they will right,because its lucrative market in weapons business.
western countries specially US are ahead because of aero-space companies like lockheed-martin,northrop-grunman,sikorsky,etc.
if indian pvt.companies dont comes forward then india will always gonna behind them and will be dependent on them.