INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Pulkit]

Re: Trichy Assault Rifle

@Pulkit sir,

No Sir bhai .... My knowledge is way limited to be called SIR.... I learn from you people here

1 Stock A modular stock which is Adjustable at different positions,side folding,can be fired from folded position ,has a recoil compensation system which reduce the felt recoil ,adjustable cheek rest etc etc.



2 Handguard A light weight modular handguard with detachable P rail on upside and down ,and slot rail sections in sides where more rails can be added as per need.This will help to mount multiple sights,laser ,fore grip,UGBL and various other accessories as per need.

These are not minor changes my friend..... This will lead to reshaping re evaluation.... I am not sure if all the req u suggested are needed or yet not implemented .... but these are nice changes if required....

3 Transparent magazine

Transparent hmmm that might be possible even today .... will be good.....

The final product will look like this

 

[The Last Stand]

the best way is supply this AK variant to all our police force which still uses the 303 rifles just my opnion

I've seen a lot of policemen in Chennai with AK's but not with a 303. 303's are not in service anywhere in India. You must've seen Ishapore 2A1 rifle.

BTW, the police security outside the US consulate in Chennai carry AK's with modified stocks. And the airport security carries INSAS.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That photo is possibly a Photoshopped, Because from the article >>

our designers have been attempting to develop an assault rifle, using the AK-47 as a model but without replicating any of its mechanism. Three ordnance factories tried to develop their own variants. While the one developed by the Ishapore factory was declared fit in all other aspects, This is an improved version of any assault rifle and the designers borrowed several facets from the 5.56mm Insas

Ishapore design AR are basically INSAS 1B1`s influenced, Let it be Excalibur, Kalantak Which are made and design by Ishapore branch ..

Where as Kanpur branch design mainly Sub-machine Guns like MSMC and Amogh, Its possible that they re-chambered a Amogh on steroid for 7.62x39mm ..

And lastly Tiruchirapalli branch came up with SLR influenced Rifle chambered for 7.62x39mm ..

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My Idea is that it is probably INSAS 1B1 chambered for 7.62x39mm with P-rails ..

This is a accurate guess at best ..

 

[mikhail]

That photo is possibly a Photoshopped, Because from the article >>

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My Idea is that it is probably INSAS 1B1 chambered for 7.62x39mm with P-rails ..

This is a accurate guess at best ..

Well sir,my personal opinion is that this rifle will most probably be based on the T.A.R. with some upgrades.The image that is currently circulating in the internat is a fake one i guess.The real rifle will be somewhat like a modified T.A.R.But the question is that why didn't the Ishapore OFB factory start manufacturing the existing Excalibur rifle instead of developing a new one??

 

[Twinblade]

I've seen a lot of policemen in Chennai with AK's but not with a 303. 303's are not in service anywhere in India. You must've seen Ishapore 2A1 rifle.

BTW, the police security outside the US consulate in Chennai carry AK's with modified stocks. And the airport security carries INSAS.

Both Ishapore 2A (.303) and Ishapore 2A1 (7.62 NATO) are in service with a lot of police forces.
(rectangular sights and magazine = 2A1, rounded magazine and sights = 2A)

In fact I see 5-6 times as many 2As for one 2A1.

 

[pmaitra]

All barrel overheat when going full auto. The question is how fast. Thin barrel will heat up faster than heavy barrel. However thin barrel will cool down faster than heavy barrel. Heat is what degrade and destroy barrel. No firearms is immune to heat built up. It is how the operator and the firearm manage the heat built up.

The more heat you built up the greater the chances the ammo cook off. Cook off is the process where the ammo ignite without the need to pull the trigger. In an AR15 platform there is a good chance the gas tube will melt before the ammo cook off. Making the AR15 a bolt action rifle. For other rifles it might go Kaboom! while the ammo cooked off.

Americans warriors manage their heat by going semi-auto with their rifle (AR15/M4/M16/etc) 99.9% of the time. Going full auto is for the guy that is humping the light machine gun. He manage the heat problem by quick changing the barrel when needed.

Full auto or burst will of course put more stress on the firearm and mounted accessories. As a general rule you loctite everything (optic, rails, bipod, etc) that is screwed into the rifle. This is especially true with firearms going full auto. If you don't loctite the screws everything will fall apart sooner or later. Most likely sooner and in a firefight.

Loctite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Common sense. Thin barrel will overheat fast. How heavy can the barrel be? One should keep in mind it is an assault weapon. The only alternative is to have wide tolerances like the AKM and sacrifice accuracy.

Even the Bren LMG needs to undergo barrel change (this happens to be the only weapon I have disassembled, yet, never shot).

Barrel will always overheat.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The forces both in Army and paramilitary asked for a AR in 7.62x39mm, In that case Excalibur is not in need as its fire 5.56mm, Though it is very much of a probability that we may see Excalibur or INSAS 1B1 in 7.62x39mm avatar ..

As the above post you quoted, Ishapore`s design for all AR based around Original INSAS 1B1 ..

why didn't the Ishapore OFB factory start manufacturing the existing Excalibur rifle instead of developing a new one??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Just to point this that Metal Magazine were also developed during early phases of Amogh carbine and latter used on mature product ..

AMOGH/MICRO INSAS in use with the coast guard.

More armed with M-INSAS, amogh carbine

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

I've seen a lot of policemen in Chennai with AK's but not with a 303. 303's are not in service anywhere in India. You must've seen Ishapore 2A1 rifle.

BTW, the police security outside the US consulate in Chennai carry AK's with modified stocks. And the airport security carries INSAS.

my bad they are Ishapore 2A1 rifle. and it is not about airport security yaar talking about every cop performing daily duties the cops in my town still use them but modernization is under way my point is instead of buying from out side we can equip our own Ak variat to the police forces

 

[Shaitan]

 

[Ky Loung]

Common sense. Thin barrel will overheat fast. How heavy can the barrel be? One should keep in mind it is an assault weapon. The only alternative is to have wide tolerances like the AKM and sacrifice accuracy.

Even the Bren LMG needs to undergo barrel change (this happens to be the only weapon I have disassembled, yet, never shot).

Barrel will always overheat.

Shooting full auto will automatically heat up any firearm. So I really don't understand their reasoning.

The AKM is pretty accurate. I have no trouble hitting a man size target at over 400 yards. It's not as accurate as the M4 but combat accuracy I have no doubt it can make constant hit at over 600 yards in the hand of a good marksman.

Heavy barrel are mainly use for precision rifles. Precision AR15 rifles all use heavy barrel. The reason is, heavy barrel won't heat up as fast as a normal or thin barrel. So accuracy won't degrade as fast as normal or thin barrel. When the barrel heat up accuracy will degrade. The hotter it is the more it degrade accuracy.

AKM handle heat worst than AR15. AKM receiver is made up of 1mm of sheet metal. AR15 receiver is milled from a block of heat treated aluminum. Aluminum heat up faster but get rid of the heat really fast. In other world AR15 receiver is a giant heat sink. AKM is an over gassed system so a lot of super heated gas is redirected back into the receiver. It also over heat the giant gas tube. AR15 use a very small aluminum thin gas tube so most of the super heated gas is ejected into the environment. Also having aluminum hand guard will help with the heat problem.

AK on fire
Burning AK47 - 300 Rounds & on Fire - YouTube

Cooking bacon with a suppressor
Tactical Bacon Cooking Apparatus - YouTube

 

[pmaitra]

@Ky Loung, yes, you are correct AKM is far more accurate than it is given credit for. I was talking about tolerances. More tolerances you have, the less the accuracy, but the reliability increases with a hot barrel (i.e. less chances of jamming).

Moreover, it gets the job done for the Soviet Military doctrine, now followed over into the current Russian military doctrine (although I hear they are changing it).

Two things:
Use AKM in full auto, as it is easy to train conscripts with that.
Use AKM as a garden hose and pin the enemy down, and pummel them with artillery.

(Both the reasons above go together.)

Unlike the Indian Army, they do not focus on marksmanship, but on pinning the enemy down and using artillery.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have to disagree, Indian Army focus very much on Marksman ship, Specially Infantry ..

Spray and Pray is a tactics but limited to Counter Insurgency mainly ..

Unlike the Indian Army, they do not focus on marksmanship, but on pinning the enemy down and using artillery.

 

[pmaitra]

I have to disagree, Indian Army focus very much on Marksman ship, Specially Infantry ..

Spray and Pray is a tactics but limited to Counter Insurgency mainly ..

That is what I said.

Indian Army does focus on marksmanship.
Soviet Army did not (Russian Army does not) focus on marksmanship.

So, Soviet Army, unlike Indian Army, did not focus on marksmanship.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My bad, I misunderstood ..

So, Soviet Army, unlike Indian Army, did not focus on marksmanship.

 

[Shaitan]

Guy has two mags and it's a long mag.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its look like a 30rnd LMG magazine ..

Guy has two mags and it's a long mag.

 

[sydsnyper]

@Kunal Biswas sir, I have a few questions (my apologies if they have already been answered, but my sifting of the thread has not answered them yet):

1. Compared with the M4/M16 family how does the INSAS fare in terms of felt recoil and muzzle climb
2. the AEK 971 and AK 107 have a balance recoil system, from youtube videos they do seem to dampen recoil and muzzle climb. Are there any disadvantages to this system on assault rifles? Why are they not so popular so as to be incorporated into the AK 12
3. If they are indeed advantageous, would it make sense to include this system on the main INSAS battle rifle (in my opinion it would be a cumbersome attachment to the carbine versions)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1. 1B1 has more recoil and Muzzle climb compare to M4 / M16 family Rifles, This is due to the working mechanism which is inherited from AK for reliability purpose though in trained hands the difference is non existing ..
2. I have no idea about latest AK family rifles and its hard to tell without using them like i did with AKM and 1B1 ..
3. 1B1 come with its own muzzle breaker / Flash hider ..

Note the angle of the holes, They push the gases from the tube to upward and forwards simultaneously, Pushing the rifle back downwards to reduce muzzle climb as well as reducing flash ..

@Kunal Biswas sir, I have a few questions (my apologies if they have already been answered, but my sifting of the thread has not answered them yet):

1. Compared with the M4/M16 family how does the INSAS fare in terms of felt recoil and muzzle climb
2. the AEK 971 and AK 107 have a balance recoil system, from youtube videos they do seem to dampen recoil and muzzle climb. Are there any disadvantages to this system on assault rifles? Why are they not so popular so as to be incorporated into the AK 12
3. If they are indeed advantageous, would it make sense to include this system on the main INSAS battle rifle (in my opinion it would be a cumbersome attachment to the carbine versions)

 

[anupamsurey]

deleting it