INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[cobra commando]

India, Nepal To Sign Major Arms Deal Including Insas Rifles Contract

 

[Twinblade]

IRDE-BEL's 3D holographic sight for INSAS.

 

[Twinblade]

Request: An image of original INSAS carbine.
Not Amogh.
Not MSMC/JVPC/Milap
Not Kalantak.

There is an image out there with dual trigger (yes it is real, not photoshop) and one posted on mp.net in which the carbine is compared to regular insas by keeping Insas on top. The image on mp.net no longer works.
@pmaitra, can you ask your friend at RFI to get an actual image of Insas carbine? there must be one on OFB servers.

Btw here is one image of Indian made AKM, AK-7 that pissed off Kalashnikov.

 

[shiphone]

Request: An image of original INSAS carbine.
Not Amogh.
Not MSMC/JVPC/Milap
Not Kalantak.

There is an image out there with dual trigger (yes it is real, not photoshop) and one posted on mp.net in which the carbine is compared to regular insas by keeping Insas on top. The image on mp.net no longer works.

Actually our members thought it was more like a dual design for Both bullpup(when butt stock folded) and normal use...

this was one of the prototypes of Early INSAS family under development...some Pure bullpup design also exists and both could be seen in this pic.--the "two-trigger" on the table and 'bullpup' in hands

 

[cobra commando]

Request: An image of original INSAS carbine.
Not Amogh.
Not MSMC/JVPC/Milap
Not Kalantak.

There is an image out there with dual trigger (yes it is real, not photoshop) and one posted on mp.net in which the carbine is compared to regular insas by keeping Insas on top. The image on mp.net no longer works.
@pmaitra, can you ask your friend at RFI to get an actual image of Insas carbine? there must be one on OFB servers.

Btw here is one image of Indian made AKM, AK-7 that pissed off Kalashnikov.

Saar, is it this one that you're talking about:

 

[Twinblade]

Yes, but it is one of the modified pieces. I want a picture of the original.

 

[sbm]

Kunal, would like some clarification on a couple of things:

(1) You've used the INSAS at 250m and found accuracy good ? Going by your photographs, your shot spread was pretty good at that range.
(2) What's the maximum effective range of the INSAS 1B1 with optical sights ?
(3) Have you ever used the optics - reflex sight, night sight or day-light telescope and if so, how good are they ?
(4) Given that the 1B1 is replacing the earlier version in service (or has it fully replaced?) - how many would have been produced ?
(5) Is the 1B1 issued to all units including non-combat formations and artillery troops ? What weapons do tank crews carry ?

I note that at expos and demonstrations, the night sight, telescopic sights and reflex sights are seen - LMG as well as rifle - but will they ever be issued to more than 10% of the troops ?

Any assistance appreciated and you've done a great job teaching us about the INSAS.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

(1) I am not a good shooters, People in range under 50ms can do hole in hole

(2) 600ms with Optics, 400ms written coz human eyes cannot see beyond 400ms with iron sight ..

(3) I used OFB Optics, Also used Reflex sight, Optics does increase the rifleman efficiency compare to Iron sights ..

(4) I cannot say how many of them produce, But there are many units at front and peace received improved INSAS 1b1 ..

(5) 1B1 is standred Infantry Rifle and issued to every unit regardless of there background, Tank crew carry pistols and Mech Inf one carry folded Insas ..

Indian Army does not train basic grunts about using optics nor issue them, Only marksman carry optics and there is almost none Relfex sight under use in mass, There are some reflex sight being issued though like from Zess ..

(1) You've used the INSAS at 250m and found accuracy good ? Going by your photographs, your shot spread was pretty good at that range.

(2) What's the maximum effective range of the INSAS 1B1 with optical sights ?
(3) Have you ever used the optics - reflex sight, night sight or day-light telescope and if so, how good are they ?
(4) Given that the 1B1 is replacing the earlier version in service (or has it fully replaced?) - how many would have been produced ?
(5) Is the 1B1 issued to all units including non-combat formations and artillery troops ? What weapons do tank crews carry ?

I note that at expos and demonstrations, the night sight, telescopic sights and reflex sights are seen - LMG as well as rifle - but will they ever be issued to more than 10% of the troops ?

Any assistance appreciated and you've done a great job teaching us about the INSAS.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

First displayed during Trade fair 2006 at Kolkata ..

Request: An image of original INSAS carbine.

 

[Twinblade]

First displayed during Trade fair 2006 at Kolkata ..

Thank you. That looks like an early variant of Amogh because the magazine is not standard 20/30 INSAS family magazine and appears too narrow.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

the only image of INSAS Bullpop available

 

[Kunal Biswas]

^^ My work, No official photo ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

During those days, It was just call Insas Carbine ..

Shorter barrel INSAS 1b1 was transformed in Kalantak ..

Thank you. That looks like an early variant of Amogh because the magazine is not standard 20/30 INSAS family magazine and appears too narrow.

======================
======================

The below was my work, It was done on Paint ..

the only image of INSAS Bullpop available

 

[The Fox]

During those days, It was just call Insas Carbine ..

Shorter barrel INSAS 1b1 was transformed in Kalantak ..

wrong post quote

 

[The Fox]

the only image of INSAS Bullpop available

the above image of bullpop is a graphic imitation of replacing the trigger assembly and the magazine compare the length of the barrel on the regular insas and the one in this image it is the same and the image where two generals are holding the bullpops the insas the actual bullpop barrel length is small ...........

 

[sbm]

(1) I am not a good shooters, People in range under 50ms can do hole in hole

(2) 600ms with Optics, 400ms written coz human eyes cannot see beyond 400ms with iron sight ..

(3) I used OFB Optics, Also used Reflex sight, Optics does increase the rifleman efficiency compare to Iron sights ..

(4) I cannot say how many of them produce, But there are many units at front and peace received improved INSAS 1b1 ..

(5) 1B1 is standred Infantry Rifle and issued to every unit regardless of there background, Tank crew carry pistols and Mech Inf one carry folded Insas ..

Indian Army does not train basic grunts about using optics nor issue them, Only marksman carry optics and there is almost none Relfex sight under use in mass, There are some reflex sight being issued though like from Zess ..

Thanks Kunal - so 600m with optics ? Do IA marksmen engage at that range ? Pretty decent by any standard.

 

[sbm]

Kunal - do vehicle crews still carry carbines ? Also, how good is marksmanship of the average jawan ?

Something occurred to me, when looking at "indigenization" if we look by component, how much of the equipment issued to the IA is indigenous ?

I mean we did some work with the T-72 and even the T-90, optics, EW and NV gear, ammunition, spares etc. So maybe by components, the IA may be more indigenous than we think.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Infantry is all about Marksmanship, Jawans have to clear certain fixed qualifications at there training center before becoming Jawans, Those who fail do it again and again unless the get it right ..

Carbine is still being carried and operational, Almost 80% of Infantry equipment is of Indian origin ( made and design In India ) except few licensed produce & imported like LMG,MMG, AGL ( Imported ), MGL and SVD ( Imported ) , Rest are made and design in India, LMG, AR, UBGL, Optics & Night Sight, logistics related all vehicles so does the ammo ..

Kunal - do vehicle crews still carry carbines ? Also, how good is marksmanship of the average jawan ?

Something occurred to me, when looking at "indigenization" if we look by component, how much of the equipment issued to the IA is indigenous ?

I mean we did some work with the T-72 and even the T-90, optics, EW and NV gear, ammunition, spares etc. So maybe by components, the IA may be more indigenous than we think.

=============================

Normally Most Targets are found within 500-1000ms, SVD are issued but as these are imported so does there ammo which is sniper grade is limited in quantity, Now looking at the basic requirement INSAS suits the need and fits for DMR use ..

Thanks Kunal - so 600m with optics ? Do IA marksmen engage at that range ? Pretty decent by any standard.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspective

The much higher figures reported for IA's purchase plans are therefore either incorrect or point to the massive royalty payments that international arms manufacturers are seeking for technology transfer obligations. It is at this point that IA needs to ask itself whether replacing an INSAS rifle costing between Rs 15-20,000 at last count with an imported rifle quoted at 6-8 times that figure is really worth the trouble. Do note, that the civilian version of the Beretta ARX-160, the ARX-100, retails at a starting price of $1950 in the United States.

Now imported designs don't always fare as well as they are touted to under Indian conditions and product support from foreign sources can also be iffy. For instance, the Home Ministry's import of over 34000 Beretta MX4 storm sub-machine guns hasn't exactly panned out too well with numerous defects and corrosion marks being found in delivered batches leading to disquiet amongst Border Security Force troops issued with these weapons.

There is no denying that the INSAS rifle family needs development but then that also falls within the lookout of IA itself, which is a key stakeholder in the entire process. As Major General (retd.) Bhupendra Yadav, who has long years of experience with the Department of Defence Production (DDP) in the Ministry of Defence and has a PhD in Operations Management to boot, says 'At the time of introduction in the 1990s it was universally felt that we had a good design on our hands.'

'The issues with the INSAS are known to be on the production side of things,'he continues.'Even there the defects have been identified and should simply have beenrectified with the Army taking the necessary initiative to make the other stakeholders work on this path.After all what exactly are the Master General of Ordnance(MGO) and Director General of Quality Assurance (DGQA) there for anyway? The Army can't suddenly take a standoffish attitude on this and just look abroad.' General Yadav adds emphatically.For those who came late, on OFB's special/extended board are included the MGO and DGQA who are senior serving officers appointed by IA specifically'to represent the users and their interest on quality aspects.' These two gentlemen are supposed get the job done on quality control aspects related to production by OFB.

As per General Yadav, the time already spent in the process of 'downselecting' imported types since 2011, was more than adequate to develop the next iteration of the INSAS and fix issues with it provided there was sufficient will. '3-4 years gives you enough time to upgrade the INSAS to satisfactory levels,' General Yadav remarks. Although hypothetical, a re-look can be taken at something like the Excalibur, a modernized development based on the INSAS which IA has been rather lukewarm too.

Interestingly, as yet another import tender drags along, one finds articles beginning to make their way into the media exhorting the military to expedite the process, such as this piece in the Hindu the other day (The big deal about the Army's small arms - The Hindu). But such articles often make somewhat outlandish claims about performance of indigenously developed weapons that naturally does not go down well with DRDO. Indeed in reply to the Hindu article which claimed that the INSAS apparently doesn't do so well in the Himalayas and hot deserts, DRDO had this to say.

'The trials covered all possible scenarios that a gun of this kind(i.e. INSAS) could encounter or could be imagined to encounter and included sub-zero temperatures at the world's highest located battlefields, the most humid wetlands as well as extreme hot deserts. The gun is available in four variants namely rifle and light machine gun, each in fixed and fold-able butt versions, and offers the option of attaching an Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL) for launching high explosive grenades upto 400 metres away. The gun makes extensive use of engineering plastics and high strength alloys to withstand boththe rigors of the battlefield as well as varied climates.By 2010, more than a million such guns and more than 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition had been produced and supplied to India's armed forces. It is important to note that while the project cost was merely Rs 3.5 crores, INSAS system had turned over business worth more than Rs 6000 crores by 2010 itself.'

There's no denying that the return on investment on indigenous weapons produced in bulk can be very significant owing to much lower developmental costs. This is precisely one of the reasons why indigenous options in general tend to be cheaper than foreign ones. It should also be noted, that IA wants the very same OFB units to produce the final downselected imported design that have had quality control issues with the INSAS line. It really begs the question as to exactly how OFB units will produce these new next gen imported designs requiring superior machining and finer tolerances to IA's exacting quality standards when they apparently did not always do the same when it came to the INSAS?

Source : Saurav Jha's Blog : Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspective

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspective

The much higher figures reported for IA's purchase plans are therefore either incorrect or point to the massive royalty payments that international arms manufacturers are seeking for technology transfer obligations. It is at this point that IA needs to ask itself whether replacing an INSAS rifle costing between Rs 15-20,000 at last count with an imported rifle quoted at 6-8 times that figure is really worth the trouble. Do note, that the civilian version of the Beretta ARX-160, the ARX-100, retails at a starting price of $1950 in the United States.

Now imported designs don't always fare as well as they are touted to under Indian conditions and product support from foreign sources can also be iffy. For instance, the Home Ministry's import of over 34000 Beretta MX4 storm sub-machine guns hasn't exactly panned out too well with numerous defects and corrosion marks being found in delivered batches leading to disquiet amongst Border Security Force troops issued with these weapons.

There is no denying that the INSAS rifle family needs development but then that also falls within the lookout of IA itself, which is a key stakeholder in the entire process. As Major General (retd.) Bhupendra Yadav, who has long years of experience with the Department of Defence Production (DDP) in the Ministry of Defence and has a PhD in Operations Management to boot, says 'At the time of introduction in the 1990s it was universally felt that we had a good design on our hands.'

'The issues with the INSAS are known to be on the production side of things,'he continues.'Even there the defects have been identified and should simply have beenrectified with the Army taking the necessary initiative to make the other stakeholders work on this path.After all what exactly are the Master General of Ordnance(MGO) and Director General of Quality Assurance (DGQA) there for anyway? The Army can't suddenly take a standoffish attitude on this and just look abroad.' General Yadav adds emphatically.For those who came late, on OFB's special/extended board are included the MGO and DGQA who are senior serving officers appointed by IA specifically'to represent the users and their interest on quality aspects.' These two gentlemen are supposed get the job done on quality control aspects related to production by OFB.

As per General Yadav, the time already spent in the process of 'downselecting' imported types since 2011, was more than adequate to develop the next iteration of the INSAS and fix issues with it provided there was sufficient will. '3-4 years gives you enough time to upgrade the INSAS to satisfactory levels,' General Yadav remarks. Although hypothetical, a re-look can be taken at something like the Excalibur, a modernized development based on the INSAS which IA has been rather lukewarm too.

Interestingly, as yet another import tender drags along, one finds articles beginning to make their way into the media exhorting the military to expedite the process, such as this piece in the Hindu the other day (The big deal about the Army's small arms - The Hindu). But such articles often make somewhat outlandish claims about performance of indigenously developed weapons that naturally does not go down well with DRDO. Indeed in reply to the Hindu article which claimed that the INSAS apparently doesn't do so well in the Himalayas and hot deserts, DRDO had this to say.

'The trials covered all possible scenarios that a gun of this kind(i.e. INSAS) could encounter or could be imagined to encounter and included sub-zero temperatures at the world's highest located battlefields, the most humid wetlands as well as extreme hot deserts. The gun is available in four variants namely rifle and light machine gun, each in fixed and fold-able butt versions, and offers the option of attaching an Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL) for launching high explosive grenades upto 400 metres away. The gun makes extensive use of engineering plastics and high strength alloys to withstand boththe rigors of the battlefield as well as varied climates.By 2010, more than a million such guns and more than 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition had been produced and supplied to India's armed forces. It is important to note that while the project cost was merely Rs 3.5 crores, INSAS system had turned over business worth more than Rs 6000 crores by 2010 itself.'

There's no denying that the return on investment on indigenous weapons produced in bulk can be very significant owing to much lower developmental costs. This is precisely one of the reasons why indigenous options in general tend to be cheaper than foreign ones. It should also be noted, that IA wants the very same OFB units to produce the final downselected imported design that have had quality control issues with the INSAS line. It really begs the question as to exactly how OFB units will produce these new next gen imported designs requiring superior machining and finer tolerances to IA's exacting quality standards when they apparently did not always do the same when it came to the INSAS?

Source : Saurav Jha's Blog : Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspective