INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Raj Malhotra]

The main problem with 9x19 is very short effective range, something like 25m unlike 5.56x30 which has not only better penetration but effective range of 100m+. 9x19 is only effective against amateur criminals using knives & pistols but is too clunky against jihadis with AKs.

 

[binayak95]

If that is LMG, I am expecting only magazine feed ..

GPMG is belt feed ..

Kunal sir, the problem with Mag fed LMGs is extremely low quantity of bullets. LMGs have high cyclic rate of fire and that means they chew through the mags very very fast, defeating the purpose of an LMG - to provide suppressive high volume fire for sustained periods. Look at Russian/Western LMGs.

MG36

PKP Pencheneg

M249 SAW

IWI Negev

 

[devhensh]

The main problem with 9x19 is very short effective range, something like 25m unlike 5.56x30 which has not only better penetration but effective range of 100m+. 9x19 is only effective against amateur criminals using knives & pistols but is too clunky against jihadis with AKs.

Very True....But, i think the real advantage of rounds like 5.56x30 over 9x19 is much better penetration (& expansion) due to higher velocity......

This comes in very handy in both hard and soft cover penetration....Imagine, which round will be more effective if the terrorists are wearing heavy winter clothing, in vehicles(windscreen and body) or light cover......

Also, the regular 5.56x45mm projectiles can be used in JVPC...and those are becoming very lethal with new technology.... Even hollow point non rechochiating 5.56 special projectiles can be used with JVPC, which would be huge advantage in Urban CQC and antiterrorist operations......that is why special police /antiterrorist agencies all over the world are replacing 9mm submachine guns with 5.56 mm carbines..

 

[devhensh]

Kunal sir, the problem with Mag fed LMGs is extremely low quantity of bullets. LMGs have high cyclic rate of fire and that means they chew through the mags very very fast, defeating the purpose of an LMG - to provide suppressive high volume fire for sustained periods. Look at

True.....but magzine feed also has it's advantage....thus a dual feed is the best compromise.....A soldier can use/borrow a magzine, once the belt is exhausted..

That is why the 5.56x45mm version of both the Negev and FN Minimi, take both belt pouches as well as regular magzines

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In practical world its a pain to carry the amount of ammunition in long marches, the ammunition is not only carry by the LMG crew but the also carried by other team mates in the formation, Its easy to carry ammunition if its in form of magazines as it can be easily fitted on to the chest rig, Weight is a primary concern and fatigue related to it, Our physic is not same as other armies so does payload per solider ..

The most important part of Magazine LMG is its primarily used while charging or assaulting a Magazine feed LMG is easy to carry and aim while the ammunition is carried in regular pouches ..

The reason we in IA prefer Magazine feed LMG, While belt feed are of different category known as GPMG, If you intend to debate about Indian firearms you have to know about our tactics and firearms according to it ..

=====

A LMG which has dual feed will be handy, though ..

You can hung that LMG around you and still carry the boat on your shoulders..

Kunal sir, the problem with Mag fed LMGs is extremely low quantity of bullets. LMGs have high cyclic rate of fire and that means they chew through the mags very very fast, defeating the purpose of an LMG - to provide suppressive high volume fire for sustained periods. Look at Russian/Western LMGs.

MG36
View attachment 20439

PKP Pencheneg

M249 SAW

IWI Negev

 

[sayareakd]

Duel feed AR ..............................................................

 

[DivineHeretic]

Duel feed AR ..............................................................

If this was not India, there'd be ten start-up firms manufacturing small arms. The problem for any potential entrepreneur is that by the time his design/product clears the ridiculously long trials process, he'd be bankrupt, nd that's if the trials process is not cancelled and retendered again and again in the first place.

Given this limitation, the only way any start-up would focus on small arms is if he could tap into international markets, which of course he can't, given the licensing restrictions.

 

[binayak95]

In practical world its a pain to carry the amount of ammunition in long marches, the ammunition is not only carry by the LMG crew but the also carried by other team mates in the formation, Its easy to carry ammunition if its in form of magazines as it can be easily fitted on to the chest rig, Weight is a primary concern and fatigue related to it, Our physic is not same as other armies so does payload per solider ..

The most important part of Magazine LMG is its primarily used while charging or assaulting a Magazine feed LMG is easy to carry and aim while the ammunition is carried in regular pouches ..

The reason we in IA prefer Magazine feed LMG, While belt feed are of different category known as GPMG, If you intend to debate about Indian firearms you have to know about our tactics and firearms according to it ..

=====

A LMG which has dual feed will be handy, though ..

You can hung that LMG around you and still carry the boat on your shoulders..

Just learned something. The USMC is replacing most of its M249 SAWs with the M27 IAR, a long barreled version of the HK416. Reasons:

M27IAR

1. LMG carrying soldiers are prime targets for enemies.
2. They feel (and practically demonstrated as well) that precise fire from the IAR (especially given its 3.5x sights) is more effective than spraying an area with an M249.
3. Now the machine gunner can enter into buildings along with the rest of the troop. Earlier, he had to wait for the troops to clear out a building.
4. the M27IAR is so accurate that it also doubles up as a DMR.
5. The 30 round standard magazine is carried by everyone, so the gunner's ammo load is shared by the troops.
6. 50-round mags are also available incase you want sustained fire ability.

Kunal sir, not gonna second guess IA tactics (I'm a navy guy) but why then was the IA looking at Negevs? They are belt fed (have dual feed as well)

 

[Flame Thrower]

Just learned something. The USMC is replacing most of its M249 SAWs with the M27 IAR, a long barreled version of the HK416. Reasons:

M27IAR

1. LMG carrying soldiers are prime targets for enemies.
2. They feel (and practically demonstrated as well) that precise fire from the IAR (especially given its 3.5x sights) is more effective than spraying an area with an M249.
3. Now the machine gunner can enter into buildings along with the rest of the troop. Earlier, he had to wait for the troops to clear out a building.
4. the M27IAR is so accurate that it also doubles up as a DMR.
5. The 30 round standard magazine is carried by everyone, so the gunner's ammo load is shared by the troops.
6. 50-round mags are also available incase you want sustained fire ability.

Kunal sir, not gonna second guess IA tactics (I'm a navy guy) but why then was the IA looking at Negevs? They are belt fed (have dual feed as well)

@Kunal Biswas sir, I am not sure whether the above is true or not, but I felt pride that IA is a head of small arms tactics.

 

[Kchontha]

Kunal sir, not gonna second guess IA tactics (I'm a navy guy) but why then was the IA looking at Negevs? They are belt fed (have dual feed as well)

Indian army wasn't looking at the iwi negev but its lmg tender was scrapped because of single vendor situation and it turns out to be iwi negev.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It means, IA wanted a LMG to have a duel feed ..

The new ARDE LMG perhaps have it ..

==========

Will also add, The tactics that IA employed is more of a offensive force than a defensive one ..

Lighter weapon, highly mobile Infantry ..

Just learned something. The USMC is replacing most of its M249 SAWs with the M27 IAR, a long barreled version of the HK416. Reasons:

M27IAR

1. LMG carrying soldiers are prime targets for enemies.
2. They feel (and practically demonstrated as well) that precise fire from the IAR (especially given its 3.5x sights) is more effective than spraying an area with an M249.
3. Now the machine gunner can enter into buildings along with the rest of the troop. Earlier, he had to wait for the troops to clear out a building.
4. the M27IAR is so accurate that it also doubles up as a DMR.
5. The 30 round standard magazine is carried by everyone, so the gunner's ammo load is shared by the troops.
6. 50-round mags are also available incase you want sustained fire ability.

Kunal sir, not gonna second guess IA tactics (I'm a navy guy) but why then was the IA looking at Negevs? They are belt fed (have dual feed as well)

 

[Blood+]

It means, IA wanted a LMG to have a duel feed ..

The new ARDE LMG perhaps have it ..

==========

Will also add, The tactics that IA employed is more of a offensive force than a defensive one ..

Lighter weapon, highly mobile Infantry ..

The reminiscent of its British heritage - fire on the move.But dual drums magazine with assorted mag chargers (good luck loading those damn things one round at a time with your thumb) should be made available to the SAW operators I would wager.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Fuzil de Assalto INSAS - fabricação Indiana. Bem parecido com o AK-47, porém utiliza o calibre 5,56mm. Equipa as Forças Armadas Indianas desde 1998 e ainda está em serviço!

=======

Some Brazilian Weapon instructor posing with older 1b1 ..

 

[binayak95]

Fuzil de Assalto INSAS - fabricação Indiana. Bem parecido com o AK-47, porém utiliza o calibre 5,56mm. Equipa as Forças Armadas Indianas desde 1998 e ainda está em serviço!

=======

Some Brazilian Weapon instructor posing with older 1b1 ..

I guess with IA troops on a UN peacekeeping mission!!

 

[singh100ful]

If this was not India, there'd be ten start-up firms manufacturing small arms. The problem for any potential entrepreneur is that by the time his design/product clears the ridiculously long trials process, he'd be bankrupt, nd that's if the trials process is not cancelled and retendered again and again in the first place.

Given this limitation, the only way any start-up would focus on small arms is if he could tap into international markets, which of course he can't, given the licensing restrictions.

Start ups and businesses are charged with more taxes and bills burden and then we expect them to create job at faster rate.
welcome to india

 

[Blood+]

I guess with IA troops on a UN peacekeeping mission!!

No need to guess, just look at the cap he's wearing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Looks like a lot of 1B1 improved are being issued, Even NCC ..

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Unlike a jingo keyboard warrior, Army has a major constraint called common sense. LMG has to be light otherwise it will not be LMG. Normal bullets / ammo carried by LMG crew is around 200-300. Even in one hour engagement the rate of fire will be only be 5 bullets per minute. Otherwise LMG will run out of ammo. Magazine fed LMG is also more accurate so uses less bullets per burst. And can also be used as DMR. Hence RPK and M27 or even G28.

The benefits of higher rate of fire only come in when there are atleast 1000 bullets to fire. Spare barrel and belt fed GPMG. That means around 50kg of equipment. Even then in one hr engagement rate of fire will be 15 bullets per minute on average.

So mathematics is whether 2 LMG or 1 GPMG? We can have three person team carrying 3 LMG or 3 persons carrying 1 GPMG and 1 Sniper rifle. Which is better?

GPMG Comes into being when requisite rate of fire exceeds 100-200 bullets per minute. Which means in 10 minutes 500-2000 rounds will be fired. ie around 60-80 kg of equipment. Belt fed GPMG is also difficult to manage alone. Requires 2 or 3 crew members.

 

[devhensh]

Just learned something. The USMC is replacing most of its M249 SAWs with the M27 IAR, a long barreled version of the HK416. Reasons:

I actually posted about the HK IAR and the Ares defence Dual feed in the assault rifles thread of this site.....

HK IAR maynot completely replace the M249 in Marine core...as both have a role.....you'll find diffrent information at diffrent places.....

There is politics involved and some internal sources even say that Marines always wanted HK416 as their standard issue and replace the M4....Now they had no way to justify the extra cost of HK 416 ...so they revived the long dead IAR(Infantry Automatic Rifle) concept...Which is a very old concept....The BAR(Browning Automatic Rifle) used in world war 2 was an IAR......

To sum up both the belt and magzine fed have their advantages and they need to be chosen as per mission(Horses for Courses)..... But it's a fact that in today's Fast and Fluid battle feilds , where mobility is most important, the Magzine fed LMG has advantages....

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Long bursts sound cool but are useless and inaccurate unless belt fed GPMG is solidly placed on a tripod, sandbagged, has adequate ammo, spare barrels, crew support, spotter etc. Therefore magazine fed LMGs are adequate for all man portable roles.

The demand for light 7.62x51 belt fed LMG by Army was to favour Negev, seems to have fallen through for time being. INSAS 7.62x51 with bipod will be better LMG and in any case OFB bipod modification of belt fed FN MAG is adequate for all practical purpose, as USA also uses FN MAG on bipod/tripod.