INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[shuvo@y2k10]

The msmc has been there for a long time.I wonder why didn't the bsf choose msmc as their carbine to replace their stenguns and instead went for an expensive beretta cx-4 the fast batch of which was faulty and had to be completely replaced?Also why is the army planning to procure 66000 assault rifles from foreign vendor when the multi-caliber assault rifle is undergoing final stages of developement?

 

[Shaitan]

LMG in Congo.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

the msmc seems very good but i wonder how effective is the 5.56*30mm round in penetrating modern level 4 bullet proof jackets even from close ranges?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In Detail >>

The firearm chambers a round developed in India called the 5.56x30mm. This round is sometimes referred to as the "5.56x30mm INSAS" after the first gun to chambered the round, the INSAS Carbine.

Those of you who follow the industry closely may recall that Colt developed a round named the 5.56x30mm MARS during the 90"²s as part of their now defunct Mini Assault Rifle project. I imagine the INSAS cartridge is very similar. The Colt patent describes the MARS cartridge:

"The MARS cartridge is designed as part of the weapon system and exploits the high energy densities of modern ball powders. It for the first time uses magnum pistol type powders burned at rifle pressures to achieve high rifle velocities in a short rifle barrel. It uses a fast ball powder to achieve 2600 ft/sec with a 55 gr full metal jacket projectile in only an 11 inch barrel."

The MARS cartridge/rifle was able to achieve similar ballistics as a ultra-short barreled 5.56x45mm NATO rifle (I use the term rifle loosely, sub-carbine is more correct), but with less muzzle flash, noise and weight. The Indians went with the 5.56x30mm over the 5.56x45mm for these exact same reasons as Colt.

Out of a 11"³ barrel, the MARS Rifle was able to push a 55 grain bullet at 2600 fps, generating 825 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. For comparison, according to Wikipedia, the original Colt Commando (11"³ barreled sub-carbine) could push a bullet (presumably a 55 grain M193 Ball) at 2750 fps.

While the 5.56x30mm has advantages over a pistol cartridge such as the 9mm NATO, to wit, less weight and kevlar vest penetration, it has in my opinion one fatal flaw. 5.56mm bullets were never designed to operate at such low velocities. While 2650 fp/s may seem fast, that is at the muzzle, not 200 meters downrange where the target is situated.

Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD famously did a study which determined that a 5.56mm bullet (M193 and M855) would fragment only slightly ,or not at all, when hitting flesh below the speed of 2500 fps. Low fragmentation results in a .22"³ sized hole in the target – less damaging that a .38"³ (9mm) or .45"³ hole.

India's new Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and 5.56x30mm Ammunition | The Firearm Blog

the msmc seems very good but i wonder how effective is the 5.56*30mm round in penetrating modern level 4 bullet proof jackets even from close ranges?

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

Level IV? At 650 mps it can't pierce even Level III. Stopping power too low compared to a 9mm. A bit too bulky for a 'modern' submachine gun. Also doesn't meet Army's reliability requirements. Thus, its a bad replacement for 9mm carbines.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Have you used 9mm carbine ?

650 mpa is the older figure, with new ammunition its velocity is increased hence its range of 200ms can be archived ( Link provided in last page ), There is no where a single article or report say it has reliability issue, related rumors are years old and false..

Level IV? At 650 mps it can't pierce even Level III. Stopping power too low compared to a 9mm. A bit too bulky for a 'modern' submachine gun. Also doesn't meet Army's reliability requirements. Thus, its a bad replacement for 9mm carbines.

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

9mm carbine desperately needs to br replaced by a mod weapon of its class but are you satisfied with the stopping power? And abt the reliability issue thr are old reports that it has 99.7% while Army wants 99.9.

Have you used 9mm carbine ?

650 mpa is the older figure, with new ammunition its velocity is increased hence its range of 200ms can be archived ( Link provided in last page ), There is no where a single article or report say it has reliability issue, related rumors are years old and false..

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

Isn't it also a bit too bulky at 3 Kg? Its almost as heavy as a X 95.

 

[sayareakd]

Isn't it also a bit too bulky at 3 Kg? Its almost as heavy as a X 95.

i lifted it with one hand and it felt good and easy to lift.

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

i lifted it with one hand and it felt good and easy to lift.

yes 3 Kgs isn't that bad but would be better was it lighter. How much does a MP7 weigh?

 

[sayareakd]

yes 3 Kgs isn't that bad but would be better was it lighter. How much does a MP7 weigh?

let them make few thousands and then with feedback and experience they can further reduce the weight. BTW it is more of side arm or specialist soldiers who wont be carrying INSAS rifle.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Never underestimate a round, only because it's .22 diameter bullet.

The New Round have new powder which makes it an equivalent to 5.56x45mm in close range, 5.56mm is quite deadly in close range also..

Entrance wound is on the inner thigh, exit is the huge stellate laceration seen on the outer thigh. Based on the xray view of the femur bone, bone was NOT hit, but broke most probably due to the temporary stretch cavity created by the considerable hydraulic shock wave the 5.56mm cartridge is known to create. Were this hit on the torso instead of the thigh, no hospital. Go to morgue..

Read about MARS 5.56X30mm Round, You wont be doubting its preform ace in close ranges..

================

Give me the earlier report what say so, It would be interesting to know about MSMC preformace with old round..

Thnx..

9mm carbine desperately needs to br replaced by a mod weapon of its class but are you satisfied with the stopping power? And abt the reliability issue thr are old reports that it has 99.7% while Army wants 99.9.

===================================
===================================

Your Comparison is incorrect, It should be Compared with FN P90

Though MSMC is little heavy but that is not a serious issue when it can mount various optics and can fire 5.56mm to 200ms accurately and very compact..

yes 3 Kgs isn't that bad but would be better was it lighter. How much does a MP7 weigh?

 

[W.G.Ewald]

 

[Shaitan]

Excellent picture W.G., thanks.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Excellent picture W.G., thanks.

5.7mm for comparison.

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

P 90's 5.7x28mm is superior to MP7's 4.6x30mm both in terms of stopping power n velocity. Yet P90 lighter than MSMC. MSMC semi-bullpup design resembles more with MP7 so I took its name as the latter is more compact and lighter.

Never underestimate a round, only because it's .22 diameter bullet.

The New Round have new powder which makes it an equivalent to 5.56x45mm in close range, 5.56mm is quite deadly in close range also..

Read about MARS 5.56X30mm Round, You wont be doubting its preform ace in close ranges..

================

Give me the earlier report what say so, It would be interesting to know about MSMC preformace with old round..

Thnx..




===================================
===================================

Your Comparison is incorrect, It should be Compared with FN P90

Though MSMC is little heavy but that is not a serious issue when it can mount various optics and can fire 5.56mm to 200ms accurately and very compact..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Yes, I understand that, Most people would do the same by going by its looks..

Though P90 and MSMC have distinct similarities about there Round performance 5.7 x 28mm & 5.56 x 30mm, And similar Range so does barrel size and other technical issues, hence..

Though as i have explained that 3kg is little heavy than most in MSMC catagory, But its not an issue when it offering such firepower, and greater distance with compactness of a sub-machine gun even compact than P90 which offer similar capability..

P 90's 5.7x28mm is superior to MP7's 4.6x30mm both in terms of stopping power n velocity. Yet P90 lighter than MSMC. MSMC semi-bullpup design resembles more with MP7 so I took its name as the latter is more compact and lighter.

 

[Immanuel]

Actually the MSMC shouldn't even be for the Army, this is an ideal police and law enforcement weapon. Matter of fact should be 'the' weapon for all State and Central armed police forces. It is very silly to be rejecting this weapon due to 99.7 reliability. Most weapons don't ever get to such reliability. As long as it is standard procedure to clean and maintain weapon atleast once a day in the field (doesn't take more than 5 mins), should be more than enough to have a excellent jam free usage daily.

Goal should be to have for example: lets take a state police force strength of 100,000

Regular State Police: 90,000 to be armed with pistols 9mm or .32 caliber + Batons

State Armed Police (10%-15% of police force): 10,000-15000 9mm Mp-5s, MSMC, Uzis, Amogh Carbines etc for high risk arrests, first reponses, area security etc

Actually, I really like the front design of the Amogh, I think they just have to replace the folding stock to a collapsible one like MSMC and it would be a nice weapon to induct for police forces as well. It has space for more rails for lights, hand grips etc.

State Armed Police QRTs (9% of Armed Police): 900-1350 (Small teams of 5-10 armed with X-95s, Modified AKs, M-4s, SLR etc) for first response against attacks like the mumbai attack or recent srinagar attacks.

State SF units ( 1% of Armed Police): 100-135 (Small specialist teams armed with Trichy AR, Modified SLR, Tavors, Sniper Rifles 84-mm RCL etc) to tackle Maoists, hardcore terrorists etc


The ideal weapon for the general army and paramilitary is the Trichy AR which hopefully is quickly fixed and modified to have a clean collapsible butt stock, rails for a lot of mounts and reduced rate of fire. The Army shouldn't be looking at 5.56 calibers, time for a change to standard AK or above rounds. New rounds like 6.5 Grendel or 6.8mm SPC are also welcome.

 

[Immanuel]

Also the Excaliber is a nice weapon, also needs a collapsible butt stock, MSMC, Amogh and Excaliber would be the best rifles/carbine for police use.

http://moderndefense.blogspot.be/2012/06/rifles-used-by-india-in-battlefield-and.html

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

Yes, I understand that, Most people would do the same by going by its looks..

Though P90 and MSMC have distinct similarities about there Round performance 5.7 x 28mm & 5.56 x 30mm, And similar Range so does barrel size and other technical issues, hence..

Though as i have explained that 3kg is little heavy than most in MSMC catagory, But its not an issue when it offering such firepower, and greater distance with compactness of a sub-machine gun even compact than P90 which offer similar capability..

And the velocity, is it comparable to P90's? And, will a single 5.56x30mm hit at close range be enough to bring down a terrorist in close range just as the 7.62x39mm round is at long range ie ~300m?