INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[ghost]

Don't you think dada it's a bit problem with us ?

DRDO/OFB make stuff 'STRICTLY' as per requirements given by Defense Forces.

What about innovation ? why don't they made something of their own and present it to our forces ? (I hope you get the message)

The requirement part is bullshit,show me one document where forces have specified any one particular type of muzzle device.They can only specify the caliber and to some extent barrel length and stock (fixed or folding) nothing else(in this case most probably only the caliber was dictated),rest they can ask for improvement over the prototype provided to them.

Show me one document where they withheld the OFB from designing a modern rifle in 7.62x39mm.
OFB trichy did produce a prototype in different design,but there were problems with it in trials -


It is 2017 ,people are producing much refined and improved AK platform rifles ,such as :


Galil ace

AK -alfa

AK 400

They could have provided a modern design ,improving over the shortcoming of an ak platform .They should have provided a hybrid muzzle brake that would have reduced the recoil as well as controlled the vertical climb,but they didn't. This is because of sheer incompetence and nothing else.

 

[ezsasa]

Don't you think dada it's a bit problem with us ?

DRDO/OFB make stuff 'STRICTLY' as per requirements given by Defense Forces.

What about innovation ? why don't they made something of their own and present it to our forces ? (I hope you get the message)

in all probability this is going to be the way going forward for a long long time.

in other words, as long as there is no domestic gun culture for assault rifles same method will continue.
in countries where there is gun culture, the industry tries to satisfy it's customers i.e public, in our case there are really only two customers i.e defence and internal security.

 

[Johny_Baba]

in all probability this is going to be the way going forward for a long long time.

in other words, as long as there is no domestic gun culture for assault rifles same method will continue.
in countries where there is gun culture, the industry tries to satisfy it's customers i.e public, in our case there are really only two customers i.e defence and internal security.

I agree.

But i think the 'gun culture' is not going to happen any time soon in our nation.

why ?

in one word:AHIMSA

 

[ezsasa]

I agree.

But i think the 'gun culture' is not going to happen any time soon in our nation.

why ?

in one word:AHIMSA

not ahimsa per se... there are many areas within the country where guns are a culture punjab, Rajasthan, MP, UP , rayalaseema area in andhra, and some more places in north east.. even we had a gun culture in my family till about 20 years back, not worth the trouble anymore in andhra. No naxals, no robbers and no more wild animals to hunt.

the govt is not in a position to control full blown assault rifle gun culture since our independance, police being understaffed and all.

if we had gun culture, our situation will probably look like pakistan, mexico , columbia or brazil, none of them are exemplary. i'd rather not have that type of gun culture for now.

coming back to original topic.. when parrikar was there i had hopes that GSQR process would be streamlined resulting in faster development cycles, now i am not that hopeful because jaitley has bigger fish to fry in 2017 because of GST.

 

[Johny_Baba]

not ahimsa per se... there are many areas within the country where guns are a culture punjab, Rajasthan, MP, UP , rayalaseema area in andhra, and some more places in north east.. even we had a gun culture in my family till about 20 years back, not worth the trouble anymore in andhra. No naxals, no robbers and no more wild animals to hunt.

the govt is not in a position to control full blown assault rifle gun culture since our independance, police being understaffed and all.

if we had gun culture, our situation will probably look like pakistan, mexico , columbia or brazil, none of them are exemplary. i'd rather not have that type of gun culture for now.

coming back to original topic.. when parrikar was there i had hopes that GSQR process would be streamlined resulting in faster development cycles, now i am not that hopeful because jaitley has bigger fish to fry in 2017 because of GST.

I see.Maybe it was quite immature to say because of 'Ahimsa' we might not have gun culture.

Well,all i wanted to say is,having a gun culture similar to U.S. where they have firing ranges and people have fun at there with their firearms.

Anyway,In January,Parrikar gave a statement that about four months are given to OFB/DRDO to prove their worth otherwise they'll look somewhere else for acquiring next standard issue rifle,and It's almost april now.

 

[Shaitan]

in all probability this is going to be the way going forward for a long long time.

in other words, as long as there is no domestic gun culture for assault rifles same method will continue.
in countries where there is gun culture, the industry tries to satisfy it's customers i.e public, in our case there are really only two customers i.e defence and internal security.

It's not just gun culture, you need companies that care about their craftsmanship. OFB, doesnt need to. You'll always get the bare minimum.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@ghost

Such information about requirements and requirement changes are confidential in nature, These are not RFI or RFP which your ideas are based on,Such information are shared only within specific GOI branches ..

More of such post which contain rant will be deleted in future, you have been warned ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Excalibur MK1A was a design completely by OFB, It passed its trails back in 2003 at MHOW but was not inducted despite it was better in many ways to 1B1 in service like lesser moving parts, light weight furniture, Such treatment discourage innovation and of-course their is competition where older design are given first preference which further discourage innovation ..

Indian forces see west for innovation which are tested by them in battle and They have little confidence among their own scientific community, They demand only modified copy through its home grown industry, They have little or no faith in new technologies or changes, Though their are exceptions people but are rare ..

=================

This has to be change, Seriously ..

Don't you think dada it's a bit problem with us ?

DRDO/OFB make stuff 'STRICTLY' as per requirements given by Defense Forces.

What about innovation ? why don't they made something of their own and present it to our forces ? (I hope you get the message)

 

[ghost]

Regarding GSQR in general-
GSQR is specific in nature for physical parameters such as length, mass, ambidextrous features, provision of Picatinny rails etc .It is generic in terms of design of the rifle such as muzzle brake. ARDE and OFB design a prototype as per these GSQR, then it undergoes trials .After it has passed all the trials and modified as per the improvement suggested the final design is frozen.Then OFB carry out its production as per the final design.


Regarding Ghatak -
It is not based on Army GSQR as being suggested,it is a in house development done by OFB to gain workload for future.

Providing of workload in Small Arms group of factories.

Parallely OFB has undertaken following IRD projects(Industrial Research and Development ) to obtain workload from users:

7.62mm Assault Rifle (Ghaatak) : RFI, SAF has developed this weapon and successfully trial evaluated by BoO of MHA. PMS allocation received for 3007 nos.

http://bpms.org.in/documents/actn-tkn-on-16th-scm-new-x3ta.pdf

 

[Kunal Biswas]

GSQR are not available for public reading, What you defined is your idea based on public reading of RFI or RFP ..

From the source, contrary to what you are trying to convey ..

The four small arms manufacturing factories viz Rifle factory, Ishajpore(RFI), small Arms Factory
(SAF), Ordnance factory Tiruchirapalli (OFT) & Ordnance factory Project, Korwa(OFPKR) are
established primarily to cater the requirement of Defense Forces.

User is looking for induction of new technology weapons, OFB has sensitized the factories about this
transition stage. New weapons can be inducted after fructification of RFPs and resultant absorption of
ToT to meet the user requirement / hope.

What you provided is action taken report,ts not about or Army or Ghatak either or General idea about the procedure which this is regarding, The report says obvious nature of workload but you made selected highlights of the parts to support your own opinion under the word suggestion of your and not the article, I, If given chance anyone can bring any article and claim anything in such manner ..

This thread about TAR, Let me bring in something which suggest TAR QR is prepared by Paramilitary and Army is not a part of it but Ghatak`s ..

Do send me something which support your claim, which also convey that GOI runs a banana republic ..

regarding Ghatak -
It is not based on Army GSQR as being suggested,it is a in house development done by OFB to gain workload for future.f

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding the topic :

From 2015-2016 annual report ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INSAS LMG with scope ..

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Specs of the scope :

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LMG at Range :

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Folded 1B1 in service with Mech Inf ..

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

IDRW is not the best source to count on, AR-2 was chambered for 7.62M43 ..

If their is indeed a variant of Excalibur then the designation will be different ..

Personally i will be glad if based on Excalibur as it share most of parts with 1B1, Specially cleaning and handling.

I think as per Saurav jha Ar 2 is chambered for 7.62*51 mm NATO round and headed for trials later this month. Ghatak on the other hand is chambered for 7.62*39mm and it will be mass inducted in central paramilitary as well as state armed police forces. But the big question is What is the status of MCIWS.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AR-2 is not a new development, It existed for some time now and was always in 7.62M43 ..

MICWS project is in development, It will come only after INSAS MK1C inducted in large numbers ..

I think as per Saurav jha Ar 2 is chambered for 7.62*51 mm NATO round and headed for trials later this month..

 

[Johny_Baba]

What will happen to existing 1B1 INSAS,after we've chosen our next standard issue rifle ?

All the mass of 1B1 is going to be 'dumped' on our Police forces ? (Although police forces are using it in very large scale,still...)

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

AR-2 is not a new development, It existed for some time now and was always in 7.62M43 ..

MICWS project is in development, It will come only after INSAS MK1C inducted in large numbers ..

Is this then another rifle in developement separate from AR2 and ghataak?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

These will go to reserve and will fill the pockets in paramilitary as well as police where SLR still in use ..

What will happen to existing 1B1 INSAS,after we've chosen our next standard issue rifle ?

All the mass of 1B1 is going to be 'dumped' on our Police forces ? (Although police forces are using it in very large scale,still...)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Photo is for representation purpose and has nothing to do with real prototype of OFB ..

The rifle of 7.62x52 calibre operates on the rotating bolt model, same as the legendary AK-47. However, the OFB gun has a higher calibre compared to AK-47 which is a 7.62x39 rifle.The guns will be manufactured at Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) in West Bengal, said director general of OFB S C Bajpai. He was in city to address the valedictory function of Indian Ordnance Factory Service (IOFS) officers at the National Academy of Defence Production (NADP).Bajpai said an internal trial of the weapon would be held next month.

Source : http://www.nyoooz.com/news/nagpur/763160/ofb-develops-new-rifle-for-army-in-quick-time

 

[sbm]

Kunal, I don't know if 7m INSAS rifles were produced (2m definitely) but what of LMG production? 100,000 or so?