INSAS Indian Small Arms System

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Kunal Biswas

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Now this is a fine rifle. i noticed that the assault rifle based on the Kalashnikov doesn't have a gas tube attached to the barrel, or have I completely missed it?
AK and Insas so does Trichy Assault Rifle are all gas operated..

longer barrel and with good Iron Sights..
 

Hari Sud

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There was over enthusiastic Indian Army officers, who dumped the great Ishapore FAL rifle in favour of lighter INSAS rifle. They were following the Americans who dumped their nice rifle in favor of F-16. The F-16 had 15 years of field trouble of jamming, dirt affecting operation and generally a smaller bullet with only 200 yards kill or drop range. But it was lighter and very modern looking. Result 90% of ammunition fired in Vietnam from 1965 to 1975 was waste. Compare that with AK-47, it fired the bigger bullet pinned anybody down at 400 yards. American in Vietnam dropped their F-16 infavor of AK-47 when ever they captured one. Insipte of this knowledge the Indian Army officers dropped FAL in favor of INSAS which fire a smaller bullet at a shorter range.

FAL (including Ishapore version) kicks like mule when it hits the target. It can drop anybody 400 yards injure at 600 yards. INSAS or F-16 cannot do that.

My point here are two. The INSAS would have 15 years of teething troubles. Do not expect it to be perfect on the first day as the Indian Army expected and had been foul mouthing it, ever since. If Americans are asked today especially in Afghanistan, they would take AK-47 any day and drop their sleek looking F-16. Reasons most fighting other than urban house to house serach is beyound 500 yards.

Now lately India had been buying AK-47 as well as some specialized rifles. My point here is that do not follow the American example again and dump INSAS. It will work as more and more bugs are ironed out. If you have to switch back then switch to AK-47, FAL or rifle with a kick.

Get rid of those Indian Army officers who have been proposing to buy something abroad in 300,000 numbers. They are only proposing to line up their pockets with tax payers money.

Agreed that INSAS does not work at -40 Centigrade. How many rifles you know which would work on those conditions other than AK-47. The Russians when designing the AK-47 were building it for -40 Centigrade. That is the prevailing temperature in Moscow (Novemver to May). In India it is different. It is mostly +40 Centigrade in the plains and drops below to -40 Centrigade in the Himalayas, hence do not push too far to replace all rifles because some of them do not work at - 40.
 

Liberty_and_Freedom

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FAL (including Ishapore version) kicks like mule when it hits the target. It can drop anybody 400 yards injure at 600 yards. INSAS or F-16 cannot do that.
The Ishapore L1A1 kicks like a mule at the "right side of the barrel" too, I don't know about the kick on the "wrong side of the barrel" and don't want to :lol: . The kick to the user can be worked out with adjustments to the gas regulation knob. But an excellent gun nonetheless, one that I hope all people who want one can buy and experience someday 'within the legal framework'.

The F-16 had 15 years of field trouble of jamming, dirt affecting operation and generally a smaller bullet with only 200 yards kill or drop range. But it was lighter and very modern looking. Result 90% of ammunition fired in Vietnam from 1965 to 1975 was waste. Compare that with AK-47, it fired the bigger bullet pinned anybody down at 400 yards.
I agree the wound vs kill debate is a no-brainer. It's fine to keep stuff that works for the wound crowd. But when push comes to shove, man-stopping power counts as do long range capabilities.
Which is why a well thought out squad consists of a mix of Riflemen + Automatic Riflemen + Heavy-Weaponry & Explosives, hell that's how the world wars were fought. Painting every rifle man with the same 5.56 brush is and will continue to be a debatable decision. And it's being reversed as we speak, thankfully.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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There was over enthusiastic Indian Army officers, who dumped the great Ishapore FAL rifle in favour of lighter INSAS rifle. smaller bullet with only 200 yards kill or drop range. But it was lighter and very modern looking. Compare that with AK-47, it fired the bigger bullet pinned anybody down at 400 yards.knowledge the Indian Army officers dropped FAL in favor of INSAS which fire a smaller bullet at a shorter range.

SLR is good, But do you know Indian SLR weight almost 8kgs full load, that is what i felt while using it long time back, Besides in British Army SLR is called

SLR = Stupid Long Rifle :D ( No offence meant )


Btw, I shoot Insas beyond 250 meter with Iron sight straight without elevating, 5.56X45mm SS109 bullets have range of 400meter with iron sight and can be used 600meter with scope..

AK-47 round that is 7.62x39 m43 ( 1943 ) is heavy and slow bullet, its fired from AKM which sights are poor and bullet start dropping from 200meters..



Insas is short, Long range fire, Light weight compare FAL..

Now lately India had been buying AK-47 as well as some specialized rifles. My point here is that do not follow the American example again and dump INSAS. It will work as more and more bugs are ironed out. If you have to switch back then switch to AK-47, FAL or rifle with a kick.
AKM & AK-47 are purchased for CT ops, As M43 bullets are better killing tangos, 5.56mm is good till you shoot tango in head or heart..


Get rid of those Indian Army officers who have been proposing to buy something abroad in 300,000 numbers. They are only proposing to line up their pockets with tax payers money.
First know why Multi-caliber Rifle is looked, It reduce logistic chain, In field there is a serious problem with bullet and spares for AKM also INSAS, their are no spares for Insas and lack of bullets for AKM..

Now you have a Rifle which share same parts with other Rifle except the barrel and the bullet, that is the key concept..

Agreed that INSAS does not work at -40 Centigrade. How many rifles you know which would work on those conditions other than AK-47. The Russians when designing the AK-47 were building it for -40 Centigrade. That is the prevailing temperature in Moscow (Novemver to May). In India it is different. It is mostly +40 Centigrade in the plains and drops below to -40 Centrigade in the Himalayas, hence do not push too far to replace all rifles because some of them do not work at - 40.
It works given maintenance is needed extensively, FAL and AKM fails there too


New generation Rifles will have to prove in cold INDIAN climate ..
 

Liberty_and_Freedom

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SLR is good, But do you know Indian SLR weight almost 8kgs full load, that is what i felt while using it long time back.
Felt so too when I picked up one in my younger days. However now, it doesn't feel that heavy maybe because I weigh a bit more than 8 kgs*10 these days, and no I am not fat :becky: . Or maybe hefting a bull barrelled mauser action for a while has numbed my senses.

I feel the weight of the rifle is perfect given that it does not have any other mechanism to arrest recoil, barrel jump etc (7.62 × 51), other than gas regulation.And you can only play around with that so much at the expense of losing the self loading capability. But thats just me.

New generation Rifles will have to prove in cold INDIAN climate ..
I guess one also has to consider overheating in desert conditions during prolonged engagements. How do you feel about the furniture on the INSAS, I've heard that an Indian furniture manufacturer (Neelkamal) makes the stuff. Folks weren't very happy with the "rattling" upper handguard as well as heat dissipation on the lower/main handguard ? Your views/thoughts.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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How do you feel about the furniture on the INSAS, I've heard that an Indian furniture manufacturer (Neelkamal) makes the stuff. Folks weren't very happy with the "rattling" upper handguard as well as heat dissipation on the lower/main handguard ? Your views/thoughts.
Three things:

1. Reduce the weight of the fiber, The weight of insas is more at foregrip or front rather than in center like AKM
2. Make it carbon black not shiny black :)
3. The plastic used in Mag are improved but need much thicker plastic Mag regardless its transparent or not, main aim is weight reduction.





Anyways, New Insas 1B1 is better than 1B in past..
 

Liberty_and_Freedom

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New Insas 1B1 is better than 1B in past..
The new one has the problems with the furniture that I outlined in my last post and "may" be addressed in the next "working" avatar.
As seen over the years, Govt monopoly in several fields is not exactly symbiotic with quality and accountability. Maybe opening up the playing field for small arms manufacture to private players will bring in the desired effect. Third party players have been making small arm components all these years anyway,why not go the whole hog and be done with it.

The majority of "modern modular" small arms manufacturers that people drool at to including MAGPUL are privately owned and encourage actual innovation. Thats a marked difference from the Boffins at OFB and IOF who married an AK type receiver with an FN Cal fore-end Gas-reg et all(both having a decent pedigree)and still managed to screw up the final product. As far as IOF ammo goes, from what I have seen and shot, the factory loads are "lets say inconsistent" (in keeping with civility).

Cribs aside; Neelkamal can be told to shape up or ship out(unlikely given the way in which procurement works), that should fix the furniture. The Qualilty of Ebonite based magazines can also be improved by outsourcing it to private players, and if it's already outsourced, a Neelkamal-esque rap on their knuckles should help. And by the way, I vividly remember seeing "Godrej" markings on the few SLR Mags that I had handled in NCC several moons ago.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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The new one has the problems with the furniture that I outlined in my last post and "may" be addressed in the next "working" avatar.
I dont think new Rifles have any problems, there is no heat issue yet that i have heard off..

As seen over the years, Govt monopoly in several fields is not exactly symbiotic with quality and accountability. Maybe opening up the playing field for small arms manufacture to private players will bring in the desired effect. Third party players have been making small arm components all these years anyway,why not go the whole hog and be done with it.
Regarding manufacturing qualities, yes its true though it have improved alot recently..

Private players can have manufacturing work but research work to OFB..

The majority of "modern modular" small arms manufacturers that people drool at to including MAGPUL are privately owned and encourage actual innovation. Thats a marked difference from the Boffins at OFB and IOF who married an AK type receiver with an FN Cal fore-end Gas-reg et all(both having a decent pedigree)and still managed to screw up the final product. As far as IOF ammo goes, from what I have seen and shot, the factory loads are "lets say inconsistent" (in keeping with civility).
There is a bang says get the private and see the magic, i wont buy it until we all see some examples..

Final product is got messed up thanks to manufacturing quality, as per deign aspect Insas is good 5.56 Rifle..

OFB ammo is refined to, Its not the same deign as it used to be 4 years back, the ammo of 5.56mm now days is good, produce almost no smoke..


The Qualilty of Ebonite based magazines can also be improved by outsourcing it to private players, and if it's already outsourced, a Neelkamal-esque rap on their knuckles should help. And by the way, I vividly remember seeing "Godrej" markings on the few SLR Mags that I had handled in NCC several moons ago.
SLR mag made of metal, Insas is made of fiber, Ebonite is the stuff used in Insas furniture..
 

Liberty_and_Freedom

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SLR mag made of metal
Exactly, hence the "Godrej" stamping that I spoke of.
I vividly remember seeing "Godrej" markings on the few SLR Mags that I had handled in NCC several moons ago.
Godrej was; and is a manufacturer of steel paraphernalia, and the magazines on those SLR's show that they were supplying SLR Magazines several decades back.

INSAS is made of fiber, Ebonite is the stuff used in INSAS furniture.
Yes, that's what I was saying. It's the performance of Ebonite that I have a grouse about.
Roughly speaking, ebonite is made from heating unsaturated rubber + sulphur (mixed in a certain ratio) over long curing periods. Though its water resistant and electrical insulation properties are championed, it has one major flaw; above glass transition temperatures(35-90 degrees Celsius) its heat resistance is severely affected. A single bullet exits the barrel at more than 200 degrees Celsius. A prolonged engagement would cause barrel temperatures to go well beyond that; which is why I had asked the question regarding heat tolerance in relation to the hand guard.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Yes, that's what I was saying. It's the performance of Ebonite that I have a grouse about.
Roughly speaking, ebonite is made from heating unsaturated rubber + sulphur (mixed in a certain ratio) over long curing periods. Though its water resistant and electrical insulation properties are championed, it has one major flaw; above glass transition temperatures(35-90 degrees Celsius) its heat resistance is severely affected. A single bullet exits the barrel at more than 200 degrees Celsius. A prolonged engagement would cause barrel temperatures to go well beyond that; which is why I had asked the question regarding heat tolerance in relation to the hand guard.
No, heat issues..

In Infantry a man can fires upto 200rnds a day in training, Insas preform good, more you fire better it gets..
 

Liberty_and_Freedom

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Dont mean to be disrespectful mate, but I am not going with "assertions" that it works and that there no "heating" or "ammo feeding" issues.
Army finds INSAS rifles ‘reliable’
The article "asserts" that its reliable, but lets look at the figures that are painted as reliable.

The report says out of 44 rifles, only 15 faced stoppages, and only three more than eight stoppages.
15 out of 44 rifles, thats around a 34% failure rate
More than eight stoppages ?
Doesn't actually sound like it works too well.
Another fact that our SF's dont use it means that whosoever is relegated to using it; "is expendable ?"
 
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Bhadra

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No, heat issues..

In Infantry a man can fires upto 200rnds a day in training, Insas preform good, more you fire better it gets..
In combat one could be required to fire 200 rds in one minute. Heat issue arises during heavy volume of sustained fire. Imagine 200 rds fired in two minutes when temperature is above 45 degrees in deserts
 

Liberty_and_Freedom

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Heat issue arises during heavy volume of sustained fire.
when temperature is above 45 degrees in deserts
Exactly, thats what I was talking about. As for the MHOW tests, they were in controlled conditions(no matter what one says) to placate the RNA. And despite that there was a 34% failure rate which was painted as a good thing. Now put it into a real battle scenario, would any of us like to hold a rifle from amongst the 34% that experienced stoppages ?

Or maybe to the DRDO and OFB Boffins,a 66% pass rate counts as "First Class" or "First Division" !
 

Kunal Biswas

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In combat one could be required to fire 200 rds in one minute. Heat issue arises during heavy volume of sustained fire. Imagine 200 rds fired in two minutes when temperature is above 45 degrees in deserts
Bharda Ji,
Your are going downright funny, you could have said 1000rnds per min by a Rifle ? :), Rifle barrel is not deign to fire such a high volume of rounds, Now you can take any rifle in this known world and try to do what you told me..
 

Kunal Biswas

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Exactly, thats what I was talking about. As for the MHOW tests, they were in controlled conditions(no matter what one says) to placate the RNA. And despite that there was a 34% failure rate which was painted as a good thing. Now put it into a real battle scenario, would any of us like to hold a rifle from amongst the 34% that experienced stoppages ?

Or maybe to the DRDO and OFB Boffins,a 66% pass rate counts as "First Class" or "First Division" !

Army finds INSAS rifles 'reliable'
2005

Intensive tests on INSAS rifle, the Indian Army's mainstay, have confirmed its "robustness and reliability" even in "intense operational scenarios."

The result of the tests, conducted at Mhow between August 18 and 20, would be communicated to Kathmandu, which had complained about the rifle's "unreliability" and blamed it for the reverses it suffered against the Maoists.

The Army's Infantry School in Mhow tested 44 INSAS rifles of the Platoon Weapons Division, simulating an "intense operational scenario." The rifles were put through alternative tests of short-burst firing and single-shot firing.

The report of the tests says the rate of fire and performance during high cyclic load was "acceptable". A total of 12,237 rounds were fired. The total number of "stoppages" — where rounds get jammed during continuous use — was under one per cent, a vindication of the Army's stand, since the international norm for small arms is two per cent.

The report says out of 44 rifles, only 15 faced stoppages, and only three more than eight stoppages. Barring the three, the average stoppage was only 0.66 per cent, the report adds.

Apart from stoppages, the test team in Mhow, which included one JCO and four Havildar-rank instructors, encountered "no breakages or defects with the INSAS rifle", as claimed by the Royal Nepalese Army (RNA). The RNA had complained that the INSAS it used broke down during fighting, which resulted in some of its men falling to the Maoists' bullets. The rifles were operated for 30 minutes at a stretch, simulating the scenario in which the RNA operates.

Army Chief Gen J J Singh had last month backed the rifle at the Infantry Commanders' Conference in Mhow.
Army finds INSAS rifles ‘reliable’





This is of baba adam zamana news of 2005..

Nothing is related now in 2012, Its 1B1 now..


------------------------------------------------------------------


During same time:

Nepal downplaying efficacy of INSAS rifles: experts
By Sudeshna Sarkar, Indo-Asian News Service


Kathmandu, Aug 14 (IANS) Though Nepal's army blames Indian rifles for its reverses at the hands of Maoist insurgents in midwestern Nepal last week, it owes a recent victory to the same weapon, defence analysts say.

The Royal Nepalese Army created a furore Friday when its spokesman, Brigadier General Dipak Gurung, alleged at a press conference here that the army lost 43 soldiers at Pili in Kalikot district Aug 7 because the INSAS rifles used by the soldiers malfunctioned.

The INSAS rifles, made in India, were given by New Delhi to Nepal from 2003 to fight the escalating Maoist insurgency.

So far, India has given about 23,000 of the indigenously manufactured guns at a 70 percent subsidy, along with ammunition.

However, the supply stopped in February this year after King Gyanendra staged a royal coup.

The analysts say while Gurung blamed the INSAS for the Pili debacle, he also claimed over 300 Maoists were killed in the battle, which proves the efficacy of the rifles.

The analysts, who declined to be named, also pointed out that in April the army had inflicted huge losses on the insurgents when they tried to capture an army camp in the rocky Khara area in western Nepal's Rukum district.

Though Rukum is a rebel stronghold, the army killed nearly 120 outlaws during the attack while over 70 wounded guerrillas were said to have died later trying to get medical treatment.

During the Khara battle, the army had used INSAS rifles. Though the attack lasted for nearly 15 hours, the rifles did not get heated or malfunction.

In 2003, there had been some complaints about the newly acquired INSAS rifles malfunctioning, the Indian Embassy in Kathmandu said.

A team of experts, including P.K. Agarwal, additional general manager of the rifle factory in India that manufactures the weapons, visited Nepal to teach the Nepalese army how to fire and maintain the guns.

It was found that some of the guns did not fire because the soldiers had not wiped off the grease the factory had coated them with to prevent rust. The team test-fired 400 rounds continuously during the demonstration without hitch.

According to defence experts, the Royal Nepalese Army suffers from lack of training as well as motivation.

While in India, soldiers are given battle training for 12-14 months, in Nepal rookies get only five months training.

With India, the US and Britain suspending lethal military weapons supplies since the royal coup, there is also speculation that if the soldiers get to fire live bullets during training, the limited stock of ammunition might go down.

The increasing outbursts by the Nepalese army since the royal takeover without going through official procedures is being regarded by New Delhi as attempts to embarrass it internationally and damage Indo-Nepal relations.

--Indo-Asian News Service
Links is no longer working..
 

Rahul Singh

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I always wonder when will ARDE fix Picatinny rail on INSAS? It's been ages since INSAS IAR is coming up with single grove rail which allows only one attachment at a time. Won't it be great if they replace present plastic barrel cover with a cover having rail interface on all four sides (like in present version of M-4)? Though it may come at weight penalty but tactical advantage will be enormous, our soldier will get option to attach multiple sights like passive NVG sight, day light telescopic sight. holographic sight in desired combination one after another in tandem. Also multiple useful accessories like hand grip, torch, IR sights/camera etc can be attached all in one gun.
 

sayareakd

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I always wonder when will ARDE fix Picatinny rail on INSAS? It's been ages since INSAS IAR is coming up with single grove rail which allows only one attachment at a time. Won't it be great if they replace present plastic barrel cover with a cover having rail interface on all four sides (like in present version of M-4)? Though it may come at weight penalty but tactical advantage will be enormous, our soldier will get option to attach multiple sights like passive NVG sight, day light telescopic sight. holographic sight in desired combination one after another in tandem. Also multiple useful accessories like hand grip, torch, IR sights/camera etc can be attached all in one gun.
Picatinny rail on INSAS is coming, i know those guys who are working on it and they have made it................:cool2:

I was talking to them, once they will file for patent, same will be offered to forces.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I always wonder when will ARDE fix Picatinny rail on INSAS? It's been ages since INSAS IAR is coming up with single grove rail which allows only one attachment at a time. Won't it be great if they replace present plastic barrel cover with a cover having rail interface on all four sides (like in present version of M-4)? Though it may come at weight penalty but tactical advantage will be enormous, our soldier will get option to attach multiple sights like passive NVG sight, day light telescopic sight. holographic sight in desired combination one after another in tandem. Also multiple useful accessories like hand grip, torch, IR sights/camera etc can be attached all in one gun.
I talked to OFB guys at OFB Stall at Defexpo..

He told the Rifle 1B/1B1 is deign as per army demands ( Stricky as instructed ), Insas Excalibur is OFB self deign Rifle without Army Inputs..
 
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