INSAS Indian Small Arms System

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Koovie

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mhh lets say 2 mio. men (Military, Paramilitary and some Police units) are equiped with the INSAS, does it mean that it took only 900,000,000 dollars to equip all those jawans and cops?

And another question: what is the cost of a QBZ 95 ???
 

Kunal Biswas

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mhh lets say 2 mio. men (Military, Paramilitary and some Police units) are equiped with the INSAS, does it mean that it took only 900,000,000 dollars to equip all those jawans and cops?
When you take 2 Million is the Number Of IA included TA, If you include Paramilitary and Cops number raise to 3.5-8 Million or approx..

About Second Question, you can ask Chinese Members..
 

Killswitch

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I introduced myself in the intro thread.

Why INSAS is JUNK:

Lack of Piccany rail

Finish of paint is pathetic. The "blueing" as its called comes off exposing bare metal.

lack of cheek rest on the butt makes it ergonomically impractical.

Taking apart and cleaning the weapon may throw off your scope and lead to you having to center/zero it (which means taking it to the range and figuring out how off the scope is).

Lack of full auto (conserving ammo is one thing, not being able to lay down intense repressive fire is another)

The weapon is heavy and is in "standard" format as opposed to bullpup, which (I have found in personal use) is much easier to control when it comes to kickback and muzzle control while firing.

Did I mention the colour is awful? (brown and black is SOOO 1947)

For the price, I think it would be better to double down and import a world class foriegn carbine since Indias industrial base has been incapable of designing and building one as of now.


Being a decent rifle is OK when you dont have multiple nuclear armed neighbors at the gates. In India's situation there is NO REASON other than incompetence and possibly treason to be arming our frontline infantry with 2nd and 3rd rate rifles just because they are "designed and made in India".

I'd rather win the war with an FN 2000/Tavor/M4/HK G36 etc. than lose it with the INSAS.
 
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bharadwaj

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Being a decent rifle is OK when you dont have multiple nuclear armed neighbors at the gates. In India's situation there is NO REASON other than incompetence and possibly treason to be arming our frontline infantry with 2nd and 3rd rate rifles just because they are "designed and made in India".

I'd rather win the war with an FN 2000/Tavor/M4/HK G36 etc. than lose it with the INSAS.
INSAS is a third rate rifle?
It has been used by over a million infantrymen for over a decade that speaks volumes about it's capability.
And please do not use 'nuke armed countries' with 'Assault Rifles',in the same sentence,they do not make sense.
@the emboldened bit-You cannot win wars even if your troops have b**** made out of diamond or you cannot lose wars if you use INSAS(That is extremely naive of you to use such words loosely).
 

Kunal Biswas

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Why INSAS is JUNK:

Lack of Piccany rail

Finish of paint is pathetic. The "blueing" as its called comes off exposing bare metal.

lack of cheek rest on the butt makes it ergonomically impractical.

Taking apart and cleaning the weapon may throw off your scope and lead to you having to center/zero it (which means taking it to the range and figuring out how off the scope is).

Lack of full auto (conserving ammo is one thing, not being able to lay down intense repressive fire is another)

The weapon is heavy and is in "standard" format as opposed to bullpup, which (I have found in personal use) is much easier to control when it comes to kickback and muzzle control while firing.

Did I mention the colour is awful? (brown and black is SOOO 1947)
The word 'JUNK' is very much popular in terrorist forum, not here..
We dont use so much optics but rather depend on Iron-sight, There are optics which can be mounted including MARs/Carl zess and 6x scope..
Actually its same for other Rifles if not paint on time, The heat of the barrel worn off the paint if used extensively..
I have no problems with Ergonomical of the rifle, Its comfortable while shooting..
Really ??
Full auto from Rifle is not necessary as LMG & GPMG are for suppressible fire support..
Its fine as what it is, No problems with it..


In the condition IA works no other 5.56MM can be used in such a way, Insas share internal parts with AKM making it very easy to maintain, Further it provides 5.56mm SS109 and its Iron Sight are same as M16 or FNC giving hi accurate fire and very good grouping at ranges of 150-200m, Insas gives reliability of AKM and accuracy of western rifles..

In Army reliability and maintenance and Accuracy/precision is very important, No western Rifle has same reliability as AKM..






What ever you mentioned are addons, And some are not even meet the issue here, These can be done to Insas within hours if not days, FINSAS rifle is targeted what ever you mentioned, FINSAS is bullpup..
 

Kunal Biswas

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INSAS is a third rate rifle?
It has been used by over a million infantrymen for over a decade that speaks volumes about it's capability.
And please do not use 'nuke armed countries' with 'Assault Rifles',in the same sentence,they do not make sense.
@the emboldened bit-You cannot win wars even if your troops have b**** made out of diamond or you cannot lose wars if you use INSAS(That is extremely naive of you to use such words loosely).
I smell Video games..

though some of his ideas are not so wrong..
 

Ray

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I introduced myself in the intro thread.

Why INSAS is JUNK:

Lack of Piccany rail

Finish of paint is pathetic. The "blueing" as its called comes off exposing bare metal.

lack of cheek rest on the butt makes it ergonomically impractical.

Taking apart and cleaning the weapon may throw off your scope and lead to you having to center/zero it (which means taking it to the range and figuring out how off the scope is).

Lack of full auto (conserving ammo is one thing, not being able to lay down intense repressive fire is another)

The weapon is heavy and is in "standard" format as opposed to bullpup, which (I have found in personal use) is much easier to control when it comes to kickback and muzzle control while firing.

Did I mention the colour is awful? (brown and black is SOOO 1947)

For the price, I think it would be better to double down and import a world class foriegn carbine since Indias industrial base has been incapable of designing and building one as of now.


Being a decent rifle is OK when you dont have multiple nuclear armed neighbors at the gates. In India's situation there is NO REASON other than incompetence and possibly treason to be arming our frontline infantry with 2nd and 3rd rate rifles just because they are "designed and made in India".

I'd rather win the war with an FN 2000/Tavor/M4/HK G36 etc. than lose it with the INSAS.
Interesting points.

Have you used it?

On what do you base your observations?
 

Killswitch

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INSAS is a third rate rifle?
It has been used by over a million infantrymen for over a decade that speaks volumes about it's capability.
And please do not use 'nuke armed countries' with 'Assault Rifles',in the same sentence,they do not make sense.
@the emboldened bit-You cannot win wars even if your troops have b**** made out of diamond or you cannot lose wars if you use INSAS(That is extremely naive of you to use such words loosely).

1 million soldiers use it because the rifle was FORCED upon the armed forces by the DRDO, OFB and the politicians looking to save the jobs of their friends in those organizations.


The Army wanted the Steyr Aug/ HK g 41, NOT the Insas.

Why is it important to have good conventional arms (rifles tanks planes ships) when you have atomic neighbors?

Ill tell you why:

If we cant hold a enemy invasion by strength of arms we have 3 choices:

Surrender and lose territory OR go nuclear which means mass casualties after retaliatory strikes.

Or we can just hope America will save us.
.
OFB and DRDO should be ashamed. Our troops deserve better than the 2nd and 3rd rate junk thar is forced upon them over and over again.


I wont stop calling it junk just to make other people feel better. The troops deserve the best kit, nothing less.
 

tiranga

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1 million soldiers use it because the rifle was FORCED upon the armed forces by the DRDO, OFB and the politicians looking to save the jobs of their friends in those organizations.


The Army wanted the Steyr Aug/ HK g 41, NOT the Insas.

Why is it important to have good conventional arms (rifles tanks planes ships) when you have atomic neighbors?

Ill tell you why:

If we cant hold a enemy invasion by strength of arms we have 3 choices:

Surrender and lose territory OR go nuclear which means mass casualties after retaliatory strikes.

Or we can just hope America will save us.
.
OFB and DRDO should be ashamed. Our troops deserve better than the 2nd and 3rd rate junk thar is forced upon them over and over again.


I wont stop calling it junk just to make other people feel better. The troops deserve the best kit, nothing less.
Lol, you serious about the "forced" part? If that was the case why hasnt our Airforce "forced" LCA on our men?? any specific reasons for that?? It's all about quality , as far as I can remember I once saw you on PDF, looks like u believed what those jokers said, sure the INSAS got jammed in some cases during Kargil, but that was more than a decade ago!!
New improvements have been made and atleast I can assure you that even if our babus stomp these things on our army, our army wont take it. Thats one of the main reason why the induction of tejas and arjun was delayed. So, its my request to you to kindly do some research (read some recent INDIAN articles if possible) and stop this non sense... your comments are repeatedly spoiling and derailing this thread
Thanks :namaste:
 

Bhadra

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Lol, you serious about the "forced" part? If that was the case why hasnt our Airforce "forced" LCA on our men?? any specific reasons for that?? It's all about quality , as far as I can remember I once saw you on PDF, looks like u believed what those jokers said, sure the INSAS got jammed in some cases during Kargil, but that was more than a decade ago!!
New improvements have been made and atleast I can assure you that even if our babus stomp these things on our army, our army wont take it. Thats one of the main reason why the induction of tejas and arjun was delayed. So, its my request to you to kindly do some research (read some recent INDIAN articles if possible) and stop this non sense... your comments are repeatedly spoiling and derailing this thread
Thanks :namaste:
But what killwsitch wrote is correct. DRDO product need to compete rather than use "Forces" as keptive market and guaranteed consumers. That mars research, innovation and quality of product. DRDO and PSU need to be manufacturers rather than bosses forcing down their products.
 

Ray

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Quote Originally Posted by Killswitch View Post
1 million soldiers use it because the rifle was FORCED upon the armed forces by the DRDO, OFB and the politicians looking to save the jobs of their friends in those organizations.


The Army wanted the Steyr Aug/ HK g 41, NOT the Insas.

Why is it important to have good conventional arms (rifles tanks planes ships) when you have atomic neighbors?

Ill tell you why:

If we cant hold a enemy invasion by strength of arms we have 3 choices:

Surrender and lose territory OR go nuclear which means mass casualties after retaliatory strikes.

Or we can just hope America will save us.
.
OFB and DRDO should be ashamed. Our troops deserve better than the 2nd and 3rd rate junk thar is forced upon them over and over again.


I wont stop calling it junk just to make other people feel better. The troops deserve the best kit, nothing less.
But what killwsitch wrote is correct. DRDO product need to compete rather than use "Forces" as keptive market and guaranteed consumers. That mars research, innovation and quality of product. DRDO and PSU need to be manufacturers rather than bosses forcing down their products.

If INSAS was 'forced' on the captive market, i.e. the Army, then are many other products which could have been forced on to the Armed Forces.

And yet, the DRDO or the Govt could not 'force' it on anyone.

Therefore, that part of Killsworth's argument is incorrect.

Is the INSAS a world beater?

Maybe not.

Is it otherwise acceptable?

Yes.

It is not for civilians to decide as to what is good or what is bad for the Army. The Army is quite competent to do so for themselves, for after all, their lives are at stake.

Which weapon is perfect and without fault or stoppages?

The much touted US M16 was discarded for the AKs in Iraq! Why? Because the AK was rugged and failsafe in comparison.

The Patton Tank was touted as a world beater. What happened? Asal Uttar bears witness! Factory new and a total failure. One can say that it is the man behind the machine that caused the failure. True. But then what makes one feel that the INSAS is not subjected to the theory the Man Behind the Machine?

The Army wants 'A' or 'B' is the refrain from many including Killsworth. How do they know? Are they from the Perspective Planning Dte, WE Dte, SD or Mil Ops Dte? A jawan would not know the difference between the INSAS or Steyr Aug/ HK g 41 and it is they who will have to handle the same.

What is the guarantee that Steyr Aug/ HK g 41 will not jam in the High Altitude?

A weapon or weapons platform is not selected merely by looking a mil tech glossies and its market. There are the User Trials in all climatic conditions and in all types of terrain it is to be used and then there is the Technical Trails and Maintainability checks.

Interestingly, those who use the INSAS do not call it a junk, but those who don't are great votaries for foreign weapons and weapons platform and some of them are not even Indian taxpayers!

There are many options to 'save' the country and not merely the ones mentioned. One has to understand the Doctrines that are current to realise it, but then are they in the public domain?
 
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Kunal Biswas

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1 million soldiers use it because the rifle was FORCED upon the armed forces by the DRDO, OFB and the politicians looking to save the jobs of their friends in those organizations.
The Army wanted the Steyr Aug/ HK g 41, NOT the Insas.
Why is it important to have good conventional arms (rifles tanks planes ships) when you have atomic neighbors?
Ill tell you why:
If we cant hold a enemy invasion by strength of arms we have 3 choices:
Surrender and lose territory OR go nuclear which means mass casualties after retaliatory strikes.
Or we can just hope America will save us.
OFB and DRDO should be ashamed. Our troops deserve better than the 2nd and 3rd rate junk thar is forced upon them over and over again.
I wont stop calling it junk just to make other people feel better. The troops deserve the best kit, nothing less.

I am sure your knowledge is beyond us, thnx for your time, I am sure Lemon-tree sir, Ray sir and many other approved this..
 

sayareakd

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@ Killswitch please do some research about Indian and the operational area of India army then post.

BTW that is Kunal sir with his INSAS in his avatar and Ray sir is authority on this subject.
 

Ray

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I just saw Zaid Hamid TV discussion on another thread.

I wonder why Cold Start has got him scared when we have the INSAS junk and they the wonders of the western world!!

DRDO indeed produces things that are not accepted by the Army, but let us be good enough to accept what they have produced that the Army feels is OK for them.

BTW, in my long career with two wars, one undeclared war and CI or CT under the belt, I have graduated from the .303 to AKs and then to the INSAS. Each was good enough for us. And each had its issues.

Nothing is perfect!
 
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p2prada

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Considering we have so much choice and are always releasing global tenders, whatever the Army chooses is bound to be good enough, if not the best. At the same time whatever wasn't chosen may not be good enough, no matter how glossy the brochure looks.
 
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Killswitch

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I'm serious about the forced part, the DRDO and OFB have abused their captive market for decades. The Arjun tank and Tejas belong in another thread so I wont talk about them here.


I know the IA operates in the plains, deserts, jungles, frozen mountains etc.

There are better rifles out there that can also operate in the same conditions (HK G36, FN 2000, TAVOR).

I think the army should continue with its tender for new rifles. If DRDO and ARDE can make a good rifle, let them put it in direct competition with international small arms makers.


Lets see them compete on the world stage and win. No-one would be happier than I if they were to win a fair competition and finally be able to back up all of their talk.
 
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Ray

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Have HK G36, FN 2000, TAVOR been tried in cold conditions, rough handling and lack of daily maintenance as in Siachen?
 

Masada

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this is a picture of a brand new OFB made INSAS 5.56mm





this is the pic of an AK based guns

you tell me quality of product .
 
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